I was ask what is worst a student with a bad attitude or a student with bad techniques and which one would you rather train yourself.
Terry
Terry
Which is worst
- Thread starter terryl965
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Everything starts with attitude.
Re-training a student that may have learned poor techniques requires a ton of patience and a good deal of experience in dealing with such students. I mean, if they get frustrated and walk out the door, no one accomplished anything, right? It never bothered me if working with someone takes a long time. I'll stay with them as long as they need me.
On the other hand, I have very little tolerance (or patience) of someone with a poor attitude. Besides just being miserable to be around, it also spreads throughout the class like a plague. 'Course, that's one reason why I'm not yet a master, nor will I be until I'm confident I can successfully turn around such students.
Re-training a student that may have learned poor techniques requires a ton of patience and a good deal of experience in dealing with such students. I mean, if they get frustrated and walk out the door, no one accomplished anything, right? It never bothered me if working with someone takes a long time. I'll stay with them as long as they need me.
On the other hand, I have very little tolerance (or patience) of someone with a poor attitude. Besides just being miserable to be around, it also spreads throughout the class like a plague. 'Course, that's one reason why I'm not yet a master, nor will I be until I'm confident I can successfully turn around such students.
jdinca
Master Black Belt
Both present unique challenges. I would take both of them on but the one with bad technique would probably be the easier one to fix.
agreed one hundred percent
you can work on the tch but the attitude is harder to correct
Having had both, I would rather have the student with poor technique; as said, poor technique can be changed, and is generally much easier to change than poor attitude (depending on the cause of the attitude, of course). In addition, in my experience, the student with truly poor attitude will leave sooner than other students when not allowed to leak attitude all over class; students with poor technique who continue to come to class are often more motivated to improve and succeed than many other types of students.
karatekid1975
Master Black Belt
There are two students that I helped couch (higher ranks help teach on occasion). One is no longer there. She had good technique, and I knew it, too. But she had a bad attitiude. She didn't want to try, and had this "whatever (rolled her eyes)" type attitude. She didn't take direction very well (And most who taught her were not mean to her). I couldn't stand teaching her.
Another is still there. He's got bad technique AND a bad attitude. All he likes to do is spar. How he got to the advanced class, I don't know. He either purposely doesn't memorize his forms, or doesn't do them out of spite. It was tip testing tonight. He STILL didn't know his form and he's been in the advanced class LONGER than me (I passed him in rank). And one night, when asked, he flat out refused to warm up the class (the instructor picks someone to do warm-ups).
So, for me, it was a little of both (bad attitude and technique or good technique with bad attitude).
But if I saw someone with bad technique that REALLY worked hard and tried hard with a good attitude, I'd take them over the above any day.
Another is still there. He's got bad technique AND a bad attitude. All he likes to do is spar. How he got to the advanced class, I don't know. He either purposely doesn't memorize his forms, or doesn't do them out of spite. It was tip testing tonight. He STILL didn't know his form and he's been in the advanced class LONGER than me (I passed him in rank). And one night, when asked, he flat out refused to warm up the class (the instructor picks someone to do warm-ups).
So, for me, it was a little of both (bad attitude and technique or good technique with bad attitude).
But if I saw someone with bad technique that REALLY worked hard and tried hard with a good attitude, I'd take them over the above any day.
Zepp
Master of Arts
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Terry, is this a trick question? If someone has a bad attitude, why bother training them at all?
If someone want to improve their technique, no matter how bad it is, they're still easier to work with than someone who's going to work against you.
If someone want to improve their technique, no matter how bad it is, they're still easier to work with than someone who's going to work against you.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #10
Zepp said:
No Zepp not a trick question was ask and just trying to get everybody elses views on this subject.
I have trained people with bad attitudes and was able to change them in time myself not saying everybody but the one guy has been a pleasure once he understood everything.
terry
Hands down. Give a student with a good attitude & poor technique any day.
I once had a student who had great technique but she had no desire whatsoever to train. (I think it was her mom's idea that she trained). It was like pulling teeth to get to put forth effort. During testing, I'd routinely score her: Technique 8. Attitude 3. I'll take the reverse any day. I've had those & they were always a pleasure to work with. Those are folks I want to invest in.
I once had a student who had great technique but she had no desire whatsoever to train. (I think it was her mom's idea that she trained). It was like pulling teeth to get to put forth effort. During testing, I'd routinely score her: Technique 8. Attitude 3. I'll take the reverse any day. I've had those & they were always a pleasure to work with. Those are folks I want to invest in.
FearlessFreep
Senior Master
How do you turn someone from having a bad attitude to having a good one? How do you humble them to make them realize they don't know or can't do it all? How do you teach them to get value and maybe even enjoyment out of the things they want to ski over (like forms and loosening up)?
Terry made the point that he took someone with a bad attitude and they developed a good attitude. Is it possible to do that with any sort of reliability? Turning bad attitude to good like you would turn bad technique to good? Sounds a *lot* harder, especially for people who are mostly martial artists by training and only secondarily teachers; it's easier to train technique then attitude, but can it be done?
Terry made the point that he took someone with a bad attitude and they developed a good attitude. Is it possible to do that with any sort of reliability? Turning bad attitude to good like you would turn bad technique to good? Sounds a *lot* harder, especially for people who are mostly martial artists by training and only secondarily teachers; it's easier to train technique then attitude, but can it be done?
FearlessFreep said:
I've watched my sabumnim do it on several occasions. I can't tell you how, because in no instance did he do it exactly the same way. That's also the point I was making about why he's a master and I'm not. It's very difficult and takes a world of patience and experience. Far beyond what I'm capable of. The only instance that I even come close was somewhat to what karatekid1975 said about sparring. We had one student that just wanted to hurt people. Ya know, show how tough he was. If you asked him to lighten up, he saw it as a sign of weakness and kicked that much harder. I just kept kicking the crap out of him until he finally got the message that sparring isn't fighting. Over time (months), as he became tentative and eased up, so did I. Ding! Give the boy a prize! I've had dogs easier to train. Improving technique is not the same thing as beating up everyone around you.
karatekid1975
Master Black Belt
Gemini, that's exactly how this kid is (He's 16). I almost knocked him out once because he roughed up an 11 year old girl. During sparring class, we were switching partners. I noticed that this girl was hurting a bit after sparring him. I was hoping to get him next time around, and I did. We started sparring, I saw an opening, and did a spinning hook kick (no control on purpose) right to his mellon. He definitely saw stars. Did it change him? Probably not, but I'll do it again 
I have an easier time turning folks around in situations when the person doesn't have to be there than when they feeled compelled to be there. I'll give an example. At the place where I work & teach class, there's a teen with an awful attitude. He & I butt heads all the time. He loves basketbal. I know or care little for the sport. He was quite pleased w/ himself that he could beat the other male staff on most days. I noticed that he only dribbled & shot right-handed. Instead of challenging him to a game (he'd beat me easily) I told him he'd never beat a higher caliber of players than the other staff until he figured out what the glaring problem in his game was. I told him I'd give him 3 hours to figure it out. If he didn't, I'd tell the other staff how to shut him down. After the given time he begged me to tell him. So I told him about his need to at least dribble with both hands. That was several months ago. Everytime I see him he initiates a conversation with me about how he's getting better & playing against better players. I've earned his respect in something he esteems.
How that translates w/ students in a MA class when they don't care, I'm not sure. Unless you connect w/ the student w/ something they like outside of my class. Maybe that's the key. Or at least A key.
How that translates w/ students in a MA class when they don't care, I'm not sure. Unless you connect w/ the student w/ something they like outside of my class. Maybe that's the key. Or at least A key.
evenflow1121
2nd Black Belt
I think a guy with a bad attitude is worse than one with bad techniques. Supposing that the one with the bad techniques has a positive outlook, then well, if he wants to be there, then it should not be atleast that bad. But if I have to compel someone to be there, that is tougher, cause dont want to be there to begin with. I d take a guy with bad techniques over one with a bad attitude any day.
karatekid1975
Master Black Belt
Sam said:
Perferable? No. I delt with a few with good technique and bad attitude. I'd rather work with someone with bad tech and good attitude. One that's willing work hard, and takes effort in what they are doing.
BUT if I have a chance to change that person with the bad attitude, I would. But THEY have to be willing. If they have a "hard head" you won't change them. They quit, usually. I seen it happen several times in my short MA career (5 years).
I'll use myself as an example. I have good technique. I started to get an ego. It was shot down by my instructor when I got into the advanced class real quick. It took him one try for me. But others, it takes longer ... much longer. Those people are a challenge. But maybe that's what MY challenge is
evenflow1121
2nd Black Belt
The problem with the bad attitude issue atleast in my opinion, is that one can not really change anyone. If a person has a bad attitude, then they are just not willing to work or do what they are supposed to do, and not you or me or anyone out there can change them, unless they themselves want to change. In most cases I would rather just tell them, look I dont want to take your money, its obvious you are either not ready for this, or dont care much for it, and I dont really want to waste your time or mine. I know it sounds harsh, but there is a difference with a person that may be somewhat of a nuisance but atleast is willing to give something a try, than someone with a completely terrible attitude that has shut him or herself off what you are teaching.
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Like most others here, I'd have to go with lack of ability being easier to deal with than a bad attitude. However, the thread is a good reminder not to appreciate those students who, while not being naturals, put in a good effort AND maintain a good attitude.
The teachers I LEAST respect are those who concentrate the majority of their efforts on students who are naturals at the expense of students who work hard but are not athletically gifted.
The teachers I LEAST respect are those who concentrate the majority of their efforts on students who are naturals at the expense of students who work hard but are not athletically gifted.
