Which is worse? part Deux

[IcemanSK]

As a take off of Terry's post. Who would you rather train under....A good technician with a bad attitude or a poor technician with a good attitude. Actually, I thought of another way to view it. I heard a quote attributed to Morihi (sp?) Ueshiba, the founder of Aikido. He was asked about one of his teachers (who was supposedly insane) "How can you train with him, he's crazy." Ueshiba said, "But he's got great technique. I learn technique from him & attitude from others." My point is, I've seen both great teachers who aren't great technicians. And I've seen great technicians who had poor attitudes.

Who's dojang do you want to train in?

 

[terryl965]

Give me someone withgreat techniques over atitude, I CAN BUY AN ATTITUDE ON E_BAY FOR $19.95 plus shipping ang handling.
Terry

 

[Gemini]

Iceman, Define what you consider an instructor with a poor attitude. Some examples please.

 

[Flying Crane]

Give me someone withgreat techniques over atitude, I CAN BUY AN ATTITUDE ON E_BAY FOR $19.95 plus shipping ang handling.
Terry

I dunno about that. I trained for a short time under a guy who I believe is actually insane, and is really really difficult to deal with and be around. He has some outstanding students, but I just couldn't be around him so I felt that for me, studying under him was not an option no matter what.

On the other hand, someone with a great attitude but LOUSY technique is not a good choice either. There has to be a decent balance of both, or I feel it is a bad experience.

 

[Gemini]

There again, I assume by poor technique you don't mean someone with knowledge but physical limitations, but someone not even knowing to rotate their hip for a roundhouse. If that's the case, between that guy and the one with the bad attitude, I'll go back to playing hockey. I wouldn't train under either.

 

[Flying Crane]

I'll go back to playing hockey. I wouldn't train under either.

I agree with this. When I found my self training under a madman, I decided that if I couldn't find a better teacher for this particular style, then I would go study aikido instead. this was even tho I had moved halfway across the country to be in a position to study this particular style. Some things just aren't worth it.

 

[Gemini]

this was even tho I had moved halfway across the country to be in a position to study this particular style. Some things just aren't worth it.

Whoa! Just grasping the thought behind that comment is mind boggling. You were so driven to study that art you went half way across the country. For you to give that up, it sounds like calling him a madman is an extreme understatement. Sounds like the let down of the century. I think before I ever complain about anything again, I'm going to think of you!

 

[evenflow1121]

Yeah I think I would just do something else given those two options. However, if I had to choose, I would take the guy with the bad attitude and good techniques, I mean I want to learn something, a guy with a good attitude but terrible techniques is not going to help me I might as well buy a video tape bb course.

 

[IcemanSK]

I figured I should give some examples of what I meant. I used to train with a woman in her 40's who was not terribly athletic but was a great student of teachers. She could explain how someone could improve their technique, even tho she couldn't demonstrate them well. I learned a great deal from her myself.

The bad attitude person (w/ good technique)....ah, the examples I could give. I trained under a guy who lied about everything from his real job to his rank. He had the personality of a wet noodle, but the temper of an alley cat (only witnessed a few times). He would berate some students & not answer most direct questions from students. I'm betting he never had a conversation with the parent of a student once. If it were not for his wife, he'd never been able to run a school at all. I trained under him for 8 years before dicovering most of this. Yet, he had good technique.

 

[Andrew Green]

Do any of the students posess good technique?

If not, I'd find a different hobby.

 

[Flying Crane]

Whoa! Just grasping the thought behind that comment is mind boggling. You were so driven to study that art you went half way across the country. For you to give that up, it sounds like calling him a madman is an extreme understatement. Sounds like the let down of the century. I think before I ever complain about anything again, I'm going to think of you!

Yeah, it was pretty intense. It is a rare style in the US, and I moved to San Francisco from Wisconsin because this is where most of the good teachers are. This particular instructor had connections to the group in Wisconsin where I was introduced to the art, so I checked him out first. Basically, I was pretty fresh out of college and looking for a place to plant my roots and make my home, so I decided San Francisco sounded good since I had some family in the area and it would enable me to train with this teacher and in this style. He had a reputation for being somewhat hard to deal with, but I figured I would give him a try anyway.

Well, one day he came in to class in a really weird mood. We spent the first hour and a half or so doing set after set of situps, pushups, and leg squats. I mean hundreds and hundreds of them. And it wasn't in the context of "hey, let's train hard and get good", but rather "I am a pissed-off raving sadistic lunatic and it's time for you people to suffer".

So after we suffered thru that and everyone's legs and arms felt like melting jello, we started to train. Of course under the circumstances everyone's technique was lousy. So now he would blow up at someone for having lousy technique, and scream "YOU, INTO THE CORNER, 100 MORE PUSHUPS!" and it just went on and on and on.

So then as class was finishing, he started screaming, I mean really shouting, but at nobody that I could figure out, crazy stuff like "YOU SHUT UP! YOU GET OUT OF HERE! YOU LEAVE MY STUDENTS ALONE! LEAVE MY STUDENTS ALONE!!", practically foaming at the mouth, and this is in front of a class of 30 or so people. All I could figure out was that he was screaming at the voices in his head, or something. This was when I new it was time to find a new teacher.

luckily I did find another one in the same system, that I was happy with. I trained with that group for several years. But seriously, I decided that if I wasn't happy with any other teachers in the area, then I would find something else to do instead. Lucky for me there is a huge variety to choose from here in San Francisco.

Funny thing, this maniac has a really big following, with some very skilled people. I really don't understand it.

Well, that is my story of my time spent with a madman. Hope you all enjoyed it.

 

[IcemanSK]

Do any of the students posess good technique?

If not, I'd find a different hobby.

Yes, the students had great technique. My kickboxing trainer had several surgeries to remove a brain tumor in the last 5 years of his life, the man could barely walk or hold up his left arm. He had many students who had never seen him ever throw a kick or punch. Yet he was able to teach them all very well. Yes, we had students who were trained by him "pre-surgery" so the could demonstrate if needed. But he only used them to do so if the student couldn't understand it verbally.

 

[TigerWoman]

Studying under someone with great technique only gets you so far. A child needs a role model. As he/she becomes great at technique, he has also sponged up the bad attitude as well. For us adults, we come pre-packaged but only follow those leaders who are leaders. I for one get tired of banging my head on the wall when the leader doesn't lead and actually tries to trip me up constantly. Long ago, I ceased to wonder where all the black belts who preceded me went.

Poor attitude - in what way? That the instructor doesn't want to come to work, takes four weeks of vacation off every year, every holiday, every day after a tournament, every snow day, every personal business day possible, or doesn't even come, or is late, or leaves early, or then has no planned classes, no real curriculum or plan to get a student from A to B. That he is unkempt, the dojang dirty/messy, unrepaired or unorganized? That he doesn't really care if anyone learns anything, even gets a good workout, or stops training. That if you get to black belt, teach his classes, do all kinds of stuff for him and the school, you still are nothing and have no right to try to make things better, even with meetings of black belts or if you do it by yourself, it is quickly undone. And of course not appreciated. That his attitude includes being sexist and anti-semitic, for that matter any religion other than a fundamentalist Christian, with all the jokes, remarks and partiality included. That to be on his good side, especially if you are a relative is the easy road to a black belt and special privileges, no matter what stripe. With the other side vice-versa. That the tenets like integrity are espoused at each testing but not evidenced by those watching him. And those usually watching are the high rank or black belts who eventually leave if they had gotten that far by their own sheer will. (unless you are a relative or money-maker)

No, we need a leader and a great technician both to have a good school otherwise you take what you can and move on. The problem with this is that those that follow you, and those that you can influence positively in that school or community then don't have a hope. TW

 

[Andrew Green]

Yes, the students had great technique.

Good enough for me, a coach doesn't have to be a fighter, and a fighter doesn't have to be a coach.

 

[cali_tkdbruin]

Give me someone withgreat techniques over atitude, I CAN BUY AN ATTITUDE ON E_BAY FOR $19.95 plus shipping ang handling.
Terry

Yup, I'll take excellent techniques over 'tude as well too. I guess cuz I'm older now so I can handle a wacko with attitude more now, and dismiss their excentricites. Just as long as they demonstrate good techniques and teach me the right way that TKD should be performed I'll deal with it.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Some of the difficulty with these questions is that few people are at either end of the spectrum. Most people are somewhere in the middle and it's a matter of weighing what you get from it versus what you have to put up with in order to meet your goals

 

[IcemanSK]

Some of the difficulty with these questions is that few people are at either end of the spectrum. Most people are somewhere in the middle and it's a matter of weighing what you get from it versus what you have to put up with in order to meet your goals

You're right about that, Freep. Given the choice of "A" or "B" listed most would ask, "Is there a 3rd option?" And, "what am I willing to put up with?" as well. Personally, I've had the best of both types of instructors, but they weren't perfect either. But, I think for me good attitude/character is something I can't sacrifice in an instructor. I seek that out first.