where is everybody?

[sinthetik_mistik]

If you hold out to find the perfect school, you'll never find it. But I'm sure you know that already. It sounds as though a few days time & another class helped you gain a new appreciation for your GM & your dojang. Every master is different. Every night in the dojang is unique as well. We take off our shoes at the door as a symbol of leaving the day behind (and outside) and focusing on training. Most days we can all do that, and have a great class. Some days, students (and even masters & GMs) can't seem to leave our troubles at the door & it shows on the mat. Just keep showing up with your folded dobok under your arm and participate as fully as you can each class.

very true. another things i think is as important or maybe even a little more important than the quality of your dojo/dojang whatever is how hard you train. At my school training hard while in class is not an option, but how hard i train at home is. i'm not gonna lie sometimes i get lazy and get neglectful of my at home training. to me it all revolves around motivation... the more motivated you are the harder you can push yourself, the hard part is pushing yourself when you are not feeling motivated, as we all know motivation is a thing that comes and goes. but yeah i think a great way to supplement martial arts is working out at the gym/ lifting weights... cause the stronger you are, the harder you can strike! i imagine the same is true for grappling, though i have minimal grappling experience. there is something kind of magical to me about training at my dojang... all my cares and sorrows just evaporate when i start training... and after the hour has gone by I am feeling at east, relaxed, happy, and care free... martial arts has been highly therapeutic for me.

 

[WaterGal]

what do you think about the fact that we are required to buy our gear from the school? i mean i guess that could be understandable... usually when people spar in my school it is like, one person kicks, then the other person kicks, so you take turns kicking each other, usually with a specific kick, once in a blue moon we are allowed to do actual sparring, usually towards the end of class, by which time my arms and legs are tired which makes it harder to kick properly

I think they're seriously overcharging you and then forcing you to buy it from them so that you'll have to get it anyway. Seems a little shady, but I'm less concerned about that kind of thing than I am about the quality of the instruction and the standards.

To me, a good TKD sparring class includes at least 6 2-minute rounds of Olympic-style sparring.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I think they're seriously overcharging you and then forcing you to buy it from them so that you'll have to get it anyway.

That depends in large part on the average cost in that area. It's unreasonable to say "I can cover the bills here by charging $XXX so that's all anybody should charge." The rent at site A might be half of site B, especially if site A is in a smallish midwestern town with lots of vacancies, and B is in the heart of a large city where space is at a premium.

As I said, I am philosophically opposed to things like longterm contracts, mandatory testing, repeat testing fees and mandatory gear purchases. But I understand the difference between a commercial and non-commercial school, and these opinions are a part of why I choose to attend and teach at a non-commercial school.

To me, a good TKD sparring class includes at least 6 2-minute rounds of Olympic-style sparring.

Only if you're training for Olympic-style tournaments. If you're training for self defense or any other style of tournament, then your plan would be a rotten sparring class.

 

[WaterGal]

That depends in large part on the average cost in that area. It's unreasonable to say "I can cover the bills here by charging $XXX so that's all anybody should charge." The rent at site A might be half of site B, especially if site A is in a smallish midwestern town with lots of vacancies, and B is in the heart of a large city where space is at a premium.

I was referring to his school charging $350 for what he implied to be a very basic non-WTF-approved WTF-style sparring gear set. My fiance and I run a commercial school in the middle-class suburbs of a major US city, and charge about half that for a set like that and still make some money from it (we also have a nicer set at a higher price point). We don't require students to buy it from us, but they almost all do, because it's a reasonable price. Edit: it's one thing for tuition or other costs to be higher or lower based on local cost-of-living, but I think gear is another matter because it's a physical product with a set cost. But as I said, I'm less concerned about than about the standards and quality of instruction.

Only if you're training for Olympic-style tournaments. If you're training for self defense or any other style of tournament, then your plan would be a rotten sparring class.

That's true. I did assume based on some stuff he'd posted earlier about his school being KKW-affliliated etc that he was talking about Olympic-style sparring. If he's not, that's another matter. But regardless of what style of sparring you do, I think you need to practice it regularly, and for a decent chunk of time, if you want to be proficient.

 

[sinthetik_mistik]

but I'm less concerned about that kind of thing than I am about the quality of the instruction and the standards.

well the quality of the instruction is great, my Grandmaster is 9th degree black belt, and they work us, and they work us hard. i usually have to take breaks to avoid passing out... like literally sometimes they train me so hard i start feeling like i'm about to lose consciousness

 

[sinthetik_mistik]

I was referring to his school charging $350 for what he implied to be a very basic non-WTF-approved WTF-style sparring gear set

actually i'm not sure about the quality of the gear, i still haven't bought my gear yet and i've been at this school for half a year... just hesitant to blow that kind of money, i'm not rich

 

[sinthetik_mistik]

But I understand the difference between a commercial and non-commercial school, and these opinions are a part of why I choose to attend and teach at a non-commercial school.

yes, a non commercial school is most definitely more cost affective... but i searched hard for one in my area and couldn't find one... and despite the fact that some things at my school seem overpriced i respect Grandmaster Chung as an honorable man and i don't think he's trying to screw his students... just really does need the money to keep the school running... and of course make a profit so he can feed himself and his family

 

[sinthetik_mistik]

Only if you're training for Olympic-style tournaments. If you're training for self defense or any other style of tournament, then your plan would be a rotten sparring class.

my school actually trains for both sport TKD and self defense TKD. i'm actually not clear on the difference between Olympic style sparring and regular sparring, but when we do spar it is based on the basic rules such as no punching the face, and no kneeing. however, often when we are training, we do head punches, knees, grappling, among other things for self defense. people say that Taekwondo is mostly kicks, but we do plenty of punching

 

[sinthetik_mistik]

and regular sparring

what i mean by regular sparring is regular sport sparring... what is the difference between the way people fight in the Olympics vs a regular sports competition

 

[Dirty Dog]

my school actually trains for both sport TKD and self defense TKD. i'm actually not clear on the difference between Olympic style sparring and regular sparring, but when we do spar it is based on the basic rules such as no punching the face, and no kneeing. however, often when we are training, we do head punches, knees, grappling, among other things for self defense. people say that Taekwondo is mostly kicks, but we do plenty of punching

There is no such thing as "regular sparring" really. Sparring is done under countless different rule sets. The Olympic rule set is one of many, as well as being one of the most restrictive. Tournament rules depend entirely on the sponsoring organization, and while most are less restrictive than the WTF rules, they do still tend to be pretty restrictive, in the interests of minimizing the risk of serious injury.

 

[WaterGal]

When we say "Olympic-style" sparring, what we mean is the World Taekwondo Federation style, like you see in the Olympics.

Basic rules are: kicks and punches to the chest protector, kicks to the head (at age 12+), no knees, elbows, pushing, or grabbing. It's continuous sparring, meaning you don't stop when someone score a point. Sparring gear for this style consists of a chest protector, helmet, cup, arm pads, shin pads, instep/foot protector (in less expensive non-WTF-approved gear sets, this will usually be part of a sleeve-like cloth shinguard), mouthguard and light gloves.

 

[sinthetik_mistik]

When we say "Olympic-style" sparring, what we mean is the World Taekwondo Federation style, like you see in the Olympics.

Basic rules are: kicks and punches to the chest protector, kicks to the head (at age 12+), no knees, elbows, pushing, or grabbing. It's continuous sparring, meaning you don't stop when someone score a point. Sparring gear for this style consists of a chest protector, helmet, cup, arm pads, shin pads, instep/foot protector (in less expensive non-WTF-approved gear sets, this will usually be part of a sleeve-like cloth shinguard), mouthguard and light gloves.

cool, thanks. the Olympic matches I saw the fighters were extremely cautious, they didn't just rush in and start kicking... they spent the first couple minutes sizing each other up. i saw a great one kick knockout in one of the Olympic matches i watched. at one point i was entertaining the possibility of training to be an Olympic TKD contender in a few years but when i told one of my instructors he said it is possible (cause he's a positive sort of dude) but would require a LOT of intense training (like 6 hours a day at least) to even stand a chance against Olympic Taekwondo competitors

 

[Dirty Dog]

When we say "Olympic-style" sparring, what we mean is the World Taekwondo Federation style, like you see in the Olympics.

Basic rules are: kicks and punches to the chest protector, kicks to the head (at age 12+), no knees, elbows, pushing, or grabbing. It's continuous sparring, meaning you don't stop when someone score a point. Sparring gear for this style consists of a chest protector, helmet, cup, arm pads, shin pads, instep/foot protector (in less expensive non-WTF-approved gear sets, this will usually be part of a sleeve-like cloth shinguard), mouthguard and light gloves.

Let's be honest. The highlighted portion is simply not true. I've been to a number of high level TKD events. I do live an hour from the Olympic training center, after all.
At the highest levels, every... single... point... is disputed, which means that it is most certainly not continuous sparring. The fighters don't even pretend it is. If they score (or allegedly score) they start prancing around, because they know the other side will already be stopping the fight to dispute the point.
You do see continuous sparring at local events. But not at the highest levels.
In my opinion, that's one of the problems with TKD sparring as it is done at the Olympics.

 

[sinthetik_mistik]

Let's be honest. The highlighted portion is simply not true. I've been to a number of high level TKD events. I do live an hour from the Olympic training center, after all.
At the highest levels, every... single... point... is disputed, which means that it is most certainly not continuous sparring. The fighters don't even pretend it is. If they score (or allegedly score) they start prancing around, because they know the other side will already be stopping the fight to dispute the point.
You do see continuous sparring at local events. But not at the highest levels.
In my opinion, that's one of the problems with TKD sparring as it is done at the Olympics.

am i right in saying that basically all TKD competitions, Olympic or otherwise, are based on points?

 

[Dirty Dog]

am i right in saying that basically all TKD competitions, Olympic or otherwise, are based on points?

That's true of pretty much every martial arts competition of any style. I'd venture to say "all", but I'm generally reluctant to use absolutes.
The important part is "what counts as a point". In WTF sparring, it's kicks to the body or head. Punches to the body, but it has, historically, been very difficult to get punches to score. No punches to the head, at all. No low kicks, no kicks to the back. No sweeps. No takedowns. No locks. No throws. No elbows. No knees.

The rules do give a bonus point for knockdowns. One of the things that could be done to improve the rules would be to award this for "falling" as well, because intentional falls are one of the more common ways to avoid being scored on.
And you do win if you knock out your opponent, but that doesn't happen all that often.

 

[sinthetik_mistik]

thanks for the info, i'm still learning all of this.

And you do win if you knock out your opponent, but that doesn't happen all that often.

i hate to disagree with you but i've seen a whole bunch of TKD knockouts on various videos, i'll post one here as an example, i posted it once before on this site but i'm gonna post it again:

 

[Dirty Dog]

i hate to disagree with you but i've seen a whole bunch of TKD knockouts on various videos, i'll post one here as an example, i posted it once before on this site but i'm gonna post it again:

Not too shockingly, those videos show the exceptions, not the rules. Care to venture a guess as to what percentage of bouts are won by knockout?

I was at the 2012 Olympic trials. No knockouts. I watched most of the Olympic matches. No knockouts that I can recall.
As I said. You do win if you knock out your opponent. But that does not happen all that often.

And of course, an awful lot of the shots in that video are knockdowns. Not knockouts.

 

[sinthetik_mistik]

Not too shockingly, those videos show the exceptions, not the rules. Care to venture a guess as to what percentage of bouts are won by knockout?

I was at the 2012 Olympic trials. No knockouts. I watched most of the Olympic matches. No knockouts that I can recall.
As I said. You do win if you knock out your opponent. But that does not happen all that often.

And of course, an awful lot of the shots in that video are knockdowns. Not knockouts.

well so much for my dreams of being the "one kick knockout man"

i used to think it was fairly common in TKD for someone to get knocked out by a potent kick to the head... i have no idea what percentage of bouts are won by knockout... but even if it isn't a huge percentage there are definitely one kick knockouts out there, some of the shots in that video were knockdowns, but some of them i could see the person lose consciousness and just fall over from a standing position. so it may not be as common as i thought, but it is definitely out there. the first Olympic match i ever watched was a one kick knockout... i know it was a knockout because it showed them trying to bring the man back to consciousness.

 

[sinthetik_mistik]

well so much for my dreams of being the "one kick knockout man"

i used to think it was fairly common in TKD for someone to get knocked out by a potent kick to the head... i have no idea what percentage of bouts are won by knockout... but even if it isn't a huge percentage there are definitely one kick knockouts out there, some of the shots in that video were knockdowns, but some of them i could see the person lose consciousness and just fall over from a standing position. so it may not be as common as i thought, but it is definitely out there. the first Olympic match i ever watched was a one kick knockout... i know it was a knockout because it showed them trying to bring the man back to consciousness.

it's funny how many misconceptions that i had about TKD and martial arts in general have been corrected by my discussions on this website. i was bummed out to find that headgear doesn't make it harder to knock someone out with a kick, and now i realize that knockouts are a fraction as common as i thought they were anyway... i'm always posting all these knockout videos but i guess they are bogus. *sighs* oh well, i still love TKD

 

[Dirty Dog]

it's funny how many misconceptions that i had about TKD and martial arts in general have been corrected by my discussions on this website. i was bummed out to find that headgear doesn't make it harder to knock someone out with a kick, and now i realize that knockouts are a fraction as common as i thought they were anyway... i'm always posting all these knockout videos but i guess they are bogus. *sighs* oh well, i still love TKD

They are not bogus, they just don't something that's at all common. If there are (completely random number) 100,000 TKD bouts, and 8 of them end in knockouts, that is a tiny tiny portion. But that's the portion that will get the most attention.