KKW TKD, only for sport?

[O'Malley]

Hello everybody!


I've been thinking about taking up a new martial art and, as Taekwondo was my first love, I looked for dojangs in my surroundings. I found only two in my city and they both belong to the Belgian branch of the Kukkiwon. I looked up their websites and they seem very sport-oriented. They refer to themselves as "clubs" or "academies", not as dojangs, and to Taekwondo as a sport. I only saw the word "martial art" once as they were talking about the origins of Olympic TKD. They were talking about it as if it was football. There are no ITF dojangs here. Well, according to what I've read so far on this forum, the Kukkiwon federation is heavily focused on the sport aspect of TKD, gives away black belts quite easily, etc. That bothers me a little: I wouldn't like to (accidentally) get involved in a dangerous situation, think that I'm able to defend myself and then wake up in a hospital because no one taught me how to block a punch properly.


Although the competitive side could be fun, my prime goal is to protect myself and those around me. So, could I achieve it by learning TKD in one of the two schools mentioned above or should I completely forget about TKD as the schools are too focused on the Olympic sport?


I need your advice, maybe a KKW member (or someone else ^^) could help me.


Thanks!


Mal'

PS: I looked for the answer on the forum but some people were saying that the only "good" way to learn an effective form of TKD was to go to an ITF school and that KKW/WTF TKD was merely a sport.

 

[Jaeimseu]

I would suggest visiting the schools and taking a trial class, if possible. WTF "Olympic" Taekwondo is the sport aspect of Kukkiwon Taekwondo. Different schools focus to a greater or lesser degree on competition. The internet is a useful tool, but there's nothing better than going to see for yourself. Talk to the instructor(s) and find out what their focus is.

 

[msmitht]

Hello everybody!


I've been thinking about taking up a new martial art and, as Taekwondo was my first love, I looked for dojangs in my surroundings. I found only two in my city and they both belong to the Belgian branch of the Kukkiwon. I looked up their websites and they seem very sport-oriented. They refer to themselves as "clubs" or "academies", not as dojangs, and to Taekwondo as a sport. I only saw the word "martial art" once as they were talking about the origins of Olympic TKD. They were talking about it as if it was football. There are no ITF dojangs here. Well, according to what I've read so far on this forum, the Kukkiwon federation is heavily focused on the sport aspect of TKD, gives away black belts quite easily, etc. That bothers me a little: I wouldn't like to (accidentally) get involved in a dangerous situation, think that I'm able to defend myself and then wake up in a hospital because no one taught me how to block a punch properly.


Although the competitive side could be fun, my prime goal is to protect myself and those around me. So, could I achieve it by learning TKD in one of the two schools mentioned above or should I completely forget about TKD as the schools are too focused on the Olympic sport?


I need your advice, maybe a KKW member (or someone else ^^) could help me.
Anyone who says dont try kkw tkd is close minded. Yes it is a sport and yes, it is a martial art. There are good and bad schools for all martial arts. Do you want to learn how to knock someone out with your foot? Then kkw tkd is for you. Just like boxing wjll teach you punching or bjj will teach you ground fighting.

 

[sopraisso]

Hello everybody!


I've been thinking about taking up a new martial art and, as Taekwondo was my first love, I looked for dojangs in my surroundings. I found only two in my city and they both belong to the Belgian branch of the Kukkiwon. I looked up their websites and they seem very sport-oriented. They refer to themselves as "clubs" or "academies", not as dojangs, and to Taekwondo as a sport. I only saw the word "martial art" once as they were talking about the origins of Olympic TKD. They were talking about it as if it was football. There are no ITF dojangs here. Well, according to what I've read so far on this forum, the Kukkiwon federation is heavily focused on the sport aspect of TKD, gives away black belts quite easily, etc. That bothers me a little: I wouldn't like to (accidentally) get involved in a dangerous situation, think that I'm able to defend myself and then wake up in a hospital because no one taught me how to block a punch properly.


Although the competitive side could be fun, my prime goal is to protect myself and those around me. So, could I achieve it by learning TKD in one of the two schools mentioned above or should I completely forget about TKD as the schools are too focused on the Olympic sport?


I need your advice, maybe a KKW member (or someone else ^^) could help me.


Thanks!


Mal'

PS: I looked for the answer on the forum but some people were saying that the only "good" way to learn an effective form of TKD was to go to an ITF school and that KKW/WTF TKD was merely a sport.

Hello, Mal'

I believe I've been in your exact situation, when I started practising KKW TKD. After a long way to this point, I've come to some conclusions that you may find helpful:

• It comes to the specific KKW dojang whether it is more sport-oriented or not, but from what I've seen (it may be different in other areas) KKW schools are frequently and just becoming more and more sport-oriented, and even the "traditional"/"martial" ones will probably make you acquire some bad habbits when it comes to self-defense, mainly because they will also have some olympic sparring oriented drills and stuff. Maybe if you wish to practice TKD for self-defense, you should look for an independent school with a focus in self-defense. ITF is sometimes said to be more martial-art oriented, but it also comes to the specific dojang as I see -- also there is a lot of sport sparring-oriented training in most ITF schools, and this would hardly fit your self-defense intents.
• Speaking with radical sincerity, no matter the style (even among other martial arts), you'll have a hard time finding self-defense-oriented schools. Basically karate, taekwondo, muay thai, BBJ, judo and other martial arts schools today are so much focused in sport, no matter how much they claim what they teach can be used in self-defense.
• Sparring or any other kind of sport contest is nothing like fighting for self-defense. This is very important to understand. When I first started martial arts, I had no idea how much this is true. So when training for a sport sparring will have little use to help you in a life-risk situation.
• Traditional civillian defense martial arts like taekwondo and karate are wonderful systems for self-defense, really. But they are in most cases not teached with that intent, and many cases, sadly as it is, even the instructors don't realize that very clearly.
• When I say "civillian defense" martial arts, I mean every martial art has been originally intended to be mainly used in a specific context. For example, some have been designed to work in war contexts (like the various japanese arts of bujutsu -- jujutsu/aikijujutsu included), which is very different from a civillian defense context. Imagine that a bushi (warrior) in an old times war in Japan would first have to fight with weapons and his jujutsu would be only a backup, but why is jujutsu not striking-oriented (different of karate or taekwondo)? Because the opponent of the japanese warrior, in a war context, would be probably wearing body armor -- so joint locks and jujutsu typical stuff would fit the situation better; the opponent would also likely to be still wielding a weapon, so the unarmed guy would have to know how to disarm his opponent (using, for example, the wrist locks you can still see today in aikido -- derived directly from traditional aikijujutsu). Karate, in other hand, has been designed to use in non-war context, for example, to stop a non-trained attacker with no armor (a thug, a robber), so it is better to KO the opponent as fast as possible (with a simple strike rather than with a choke or a joint lock), so the defender would be able to run soon or fight the other opponent (try to pin or choke someone to submission with some highly effective BJJ technique while another attacker is free to kill you from behind and you will see this). Taekwondo, despite the 2000-year old propaganda, has been largely derived from karate, what would at least from some extent mean it is also a martial art aimed at civillian defense.
• You would hardly find a good self-defense-oriented martial arts school, but if you want to defend yourself, you have to understand that you only fight when all other self-defense methods have gone wrong. You only fight whe you have NO better choice. And in most cities of our countries we hardly are put in such situations. You always better give your money to a robber than risk your life (even if you are a skilled fighter, why would you take that risk?). You can avoid the robbers avoiding the situations. And if your problem is not with robbers, a good lifestyle maybe more useful: if you avoid the bullies (not going to the places where they are, for example), they can do you no harm. When we're honest to ourselves, we find out that most the fights we'd ever put in could be avoided, and we somehow look for them. If you really wanna protect yourself, just avoid the fight. I don't think it's such an easy task: most males have a fighter instinct (I myself have, too), but rationally thinking you'll see you'd rarely need to barehand fight anyone.
• Traditional martial arts have been designed to work in a context from the PAST. They still work today, but not as much. In the old times of China, Okinawa, or Japan or wherever, an opponent would rarely use a firearm, just to show the most obvious difference. Why would you defend yourself with a tool from the PAST from threats from the PRESENT? The threats are different enough to ask for different strategies, and you'll only fight if you really have no other option. There's a nice quote from Rory Miller (I'm not his biggest fan, but I recommend some of his books) that goes like this: "it's better to avoid than to run, better to run than to de-escalate, better to de-escalate than to fight, better to fight than to die". So it's a long way until you really have to fight. Anyway, when you do fight, maybe you better use a weapon! A weapon is in most situations a tool that can increase radically your options for survival. A weapon can also be an umbrella, a chair, a brick, a pen or any object from the surroundings. Notice that an agressor would rarely attack you if he doesn't have most odds in his favour (attacking from behind, with surprise, using weapons, being many guys against one, etc.), there's no reason for you to remain the unarmed hero if you really want to survive. A simple reason why karate is not a weapon art is because there were other weapons arts studied with karate as well (Okinawa Kobudo), and also it was largely harder for anyone to have weapons in the old times of Okinawa/karate, because they were... forbidden! I'd prefer to use a sword or a spear than nunchuks or a staff, and I hardly believe the old Okinawans would choose different if they had the chance.
• But if most real threats can be avoided to the point you won't have to fight, in the other hand you really can find other great reasons to practice martial arts (and also from Kukkiwon Taekwondo). After some time, I've found so great things in martial arts I wouldn't even care if it no longer worked for self-defense. However, I study for self-defense, too (maybe also to feed my male necessity of feeling badass ), but it's not my main concern.

In my opinion, more difficult than learning self-defense from martial arts, is having a strong will to stay in the path. Most people just give up at some point. If you don't, and if you are a really interested, you will probably find most answers you look for now, and from what I've seen, it's really worth it. If you really wanna get into real martial arts, it's not an easy thing to do -- very different from achieving a black belt rank --, but it is very rewarding.

Hey, I just noticed this answer got so big! Reps to anyone who's able to read it through!!

Last thing, O'Malley, wish you a great martial arts journey! Martial Talk is a very helpful place, and looking well you can find a lot of good info (and good people!). If you have other doubts, most people here will probably glad to help you.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I don't know how you conducted your search, but I would suggest you not limit it to storefront type commercial schools. Check out local park districts, community centers, JCC, YMCA and the like that often offer classes. Then visit any you are interested in . Whatever you see on the net or in advertising may not give a good picture of what actually takes place.

 

[O'Malley]

Thanks to everyone!

@sopraisso: The end of your post was really inspiring, man (not kidding). Must be awesome to have something you can stick with during your whole life and that brings you so much, that's one of the things I'm looking for in martial arts.

Just one thing: I'm not a guy that picks up fights but the fact is that I live in a not-so-peaceful city (nothing like the favelas though, there are really few gunshots here). As gun control is quite strict in Belgium, thugs either use their bare fists or knives. The problem is that there are little to no legal issues with acts of violence here. A guy from my neigbourhood killed a man a few years ago, he was 16 so he wasn't sent to a prison but to a reform school (don't know if I'm using the correct English idiom here). I saw him on TV and he said to the journalists that he was happy to get free holidays. What I'm trying to explain is that thugs here are really prompt to fighting as they know they won't get punished. Each time I got assaulted, I managed to avoid fighting (well, I still ended up once with a black eye, tough to escape when it's 7 VS 2) but I've always asked myself "what would've happened if I had been with a girl?". If a girl got hurt (or worse) because I wasn't strong enough to protect her, I would feel terrible.

Moreover, if someone really wants to fight, he won't let you de-escalate. I was once assaulted by five guys (they were all about 25-30 years old, you wouldn't expect that kind of behaviour from adults) just because I had looked at their car: they stopped the car, got off and tried to hit me, I managed to dodge and flee. They don't need any reason to mug you.

I want to be able to protect my friends and family. If I use a weapon I'll go to jail even if I am the victim so my only choice is bare hand fighting. Self-defense certainly isn't the only reason I want to learn martial arts but I feel that if I commit fully to a MA it should at least help me become strong enough to protect my loved ones.

Also, thank you for the informations in your post about the original purposes of karate/taekwondo, I find them quite helpful and interesting!

Back to the topic, basically it all comes down to the "take a taste of it before judging" thing ^^

Well, since I'm a newbie I was afraid of going to a school hoping to grow stronger only to realize afterwards that I still can't defend myself but I'm kinda reassured that KKW isn't all about sport.

So, I'm going to try those schools (while still searching for other TKD dojangs). I'll let you know how it turns out

 

[Manny]

Thanks to everyone!

@sopraisso: The end of your post was really inspiring, man (not kidding). Must be awesome to have something you can stick with during your whole life and that brings you so much, that's one of the things I'm looking for in martial arts.

Just one thing: I'm not a guy that picks up fights but the fact is that I live in a not-so-peaceful city (nothing like the favelas though, there are really few gunshots here). As gun control is quite strict in Belgium, thugs either use their bare fists or knives. The problem is that there are little to no legal issues with acts of violence here. A guy from my neigbourhood killed a man a few years ago, he was 16 so he wasn't sent to a prison but to a reform school (don't know if I'm using the correct English idiom here). I saw him on TV and he said to the journalists that he was happy to get free holidays. What I'm trying to explain is that thugs here are really prompt to fighting as they know they won't get punished. Each time I got assaulted, I managed to avoid fighting (well, I still ended up once with a black eye, tough to escape when it's 7 VS 2) but I've always asked myself "what would've happened if I had been with a girl?". If a girl got hurt (or worse) because I wasn't strong enough to protect her, I would feel terrible.

Moreover, if someone really wants to fight, he won't let you de-escalate. I was once assaulted by five guys (they were all about 25-30 years old, you wouldn't expect that kind of behaviour from adults) just because I had looked at their car: they stopped the car, got off and tried to hit me, I managed to dodge and flee. They don't need any reason to mug you.

I want to be able to protect my friends and family. If I use a weapon I'll go to jail even if I am the victim so my only choice is bare hand fighting. Self-defense certainly isn't the only reason I want to learn martial arts but I feel that if I commit fully to a MA it should at least help me become strong enough to protect my loved ones.

Also, thank you for the informations in your post about the original purposes of karate/taekwondo, I find them quite helpful and interesting!

Back to the topic, basically it all comes down to the "take a taste of it before judging" thing ^^

Well, since I'm a newbie I was afraid of going to a school hoping to grow stronger only to realize afterwards that I still can't defend myself but I'm kinda reassured that KKW isn't all about sport.

So, I'm going to try those schools (while still searching for other TKD dojangs). I'll let you know how it turns out

Hello, let me tell you that figth more than two guys at the same time is very dificult even for a black belt, so I can't imagine trying to defend yourself against 5 or 7 guys at the same time as you describe. If in your country this is a regular thing wow I will definetively carry on me maybe an impcat weapon (collapsible baton) and maybe a small can of mace AND the most important, will avoid going to such places where frenzy guys go to muger people.

Please take my word, the only guy who can fight more than two men with success is Chuck Norris, Jean Claude Van Damme and even Steven Seagal, and I know this cause I've been seeing this in their movies LOL!!! But quite frankly I believe that even a MMA fighter could NOT defeat 3 or 7 guys.

If you like martial arts and think they can be beneficial to you go ahead, MA are the best way to stay fit,alert and certanly can be handy if need it on the streets but not fool your self, MA don't make you invensible, or bullet or stab proof.

Avoid bad places, avoid bad times, avoid bad people and always stay alert to your sorroundings.

Manny

 

[Cyriacus]

It depends on the instructor, really, and how much time they spend on that kind of thing. Some Dojang are all about sport, others are all about hitting people in general. My suggestion is to not interrogate the 'style', and just go sit down in the Dojang and watch for half an hour, or have a free class if they offer one.
If you like it, you like it. If you dont, you can go look at something else

 

[Dirty Dog]

There are as many different "flavours" of KKW TKD as there are instructors. Some focus wholly on SD, some on sport, some at any point between. Best thing you can do is go to the school. Sit in on a few classes. Take a class or two, if they let you. Meet the instructors. See if what they're teaching seems to match what you're looking for.
When you're watching classes, watch both beginner and advanced classes. The curriculum can vary widely depending on the level of training.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Please take my word, the only guy who can fight more than two men with success is Chuck Norris, Jean Claude Van Damme and even Steven Seagal, and I know this cause I've been seeing this in their movies LOL!!!
Manny

That's the best thing I've read today!

 

[WaterGal]

I love TKD, and it can teach you some good things - how to strike hard, block, etc. I'm sure that would help you in a fight. But if you're worried about getting grabbed in the street, you might want to check out something like Hapkido or Jujitsu?

 

[Dirty Dog]

I love TKD, and it can teach you some good things - how to strike hard, block, etc. I'm sure that would help you in a fight. But if you're worried about getting grabbed in the street, you might want to check out something like Hapkido or Jujitsu?

Or find a dojang that teaches the art of TKD rather than the sport.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Back to the topic, basically it all comes down to the "take a taste of it before judging" thing ^^

Well, since I'm a newbie I was afraid of going to a school hoping to grow stronger only to realize afterwards that I still can't defend myself but I'm kinda reassured that KKW isn't all about sport.

So, I'm going to try those schools (while still searching for other TKD dojangs). I'll let you know how it turns out

The question I have for you is this; how are you going to know? By what standard will you judge this KKW school (or any art)? All too many schools have a 'Self-Defense Taught Here' sign but don't have any idea what training for self-defense actually is and just as importantly, what it isn't. Additionally, you need to check into the experience of the instructor, not just his/her credentials. Having a KKW certificate means little in regards to self-defense if there is not practical experience. Does he/she have real world experience with violent, determined attackers? If not, what about their instructor(s) and so forth. What was the litmus test to determine whether this or that technique actually works outside the dojang?

I've posted the following many times on various boards. I feel it is applicable here since you are looking specifically for SD. I hope it is a help to you.

There has been much discussion on the differences between self-defense training methodology vs. sport training methodology. It isn't necessarily a this vs. that since an individual is free to pursue either as the focus of their personal training. The purpose of this thread is to go into the differences in training methodology. It isn't to say one is better or superior to the other as each has a different focus and a different goal. So from the very beginning I want to make it clear that this isnt' an 'us' vs. 'them' thread. It isn't a we're great and you suck thread. It is only to discuss the SD training methodology in and of itself and how it differs from the sport model.

For the sport-only instructor/practitioner that has only the focus or goal of sport competition, this thread will probably be of little value. And there is nothing wrong with being a sport only instructor/practitiner as long as that goal is clearly stated up front.

For the sport only instructor/practitioner that wants to take a look at some SD options for possible inclusion into the training, this thread may hold some value for you.

For the SD only instructor/practitioner this would be a good thread to 'talk shop'.

For the purposes of this thread we can define self-defense as the strategies, principles, tactics and techniques to defend oneself and/or loved ones from and attack which can cause bodily harm, great bodily harm and/or death.

To begin with, most types of sport traing/competions revolve around some/most/all of the following considerations (be they TKD specific or a more general MMA).

• Has a referee that enforces rules that both parties are required to abide by for the match.
• The match is in a well-lit, dry, level, soft venue.
• The opponent is unarmed.
• The opponent is alone with no chance others will join in.
• Some sort of safety gear is usually involved i.e. cup, mouth piece, gloves etc.
• The opponent isn't trying to kill, maim or severely injure you.
• You get a break in-between rounds to catch your breath, get a drink, get some advice or a pep talk.
• If you've had enough, you can call a time out or tap out or simply quit and walk away.
• There is often an incentive or reward for competing and/or winning such as rank advancement, a prize or maybe cash.

As a comparison, self-defense training is for situations;

• Situational awareness i.e. be aware of your surroundings.
• Factors such as avoidance, evasion, escape and de-escalation need to be taken into consideration and trained for where appropriate.
• Where there is no referee enforcing rules.
• You are likely alone and/or at some sort of a place or position of disadvantage.
• There are no rules.
• There are no breaks, water, advice or anything to assist you.
• The assault can occur in a parking lot, elevator, side street, your car, your bedroom, in the woods etc. It will likely occur in dim light conditions in any type of weather.
• The attacker may be armed, and should be assumed to be armed.
• The attacker may have friends more than willing to jump in.
• There is no safety gear, but likely a plethora of person-unfriendly objects like broken glass, traffic, walls etc.
• The attacker is looking to cause as much damage to you as humanly possible in the shortest amount of time possible.
• To quit is to die (or something possibly worse i.e. rape, love one killed etc)
• The goal is survival, the method is whatever it takes and is appropriate to the situation.

When looking at the difference in training methodologies, consider for the student and scenario;

• Do they always 'go for the knock-out', for points, for a submission? Is so, they've limited there response options.
• Do they have the option and/or opportunity to avoid or evade the potential conflice. Or escape or practice an verbal de-escalation skills?
• Do they have the option of using an improvised weapon?
• Does there opponent have the option of pulling a weapon (planned or improvised)?
• Does there opponent have the option of having his buddies jump in to help?
• Is the student required to observe certain rules?
• Do your students always train inside the Dojang? Are opportunities provided to train inside a vehicle, stairs, elevator, hallway, small room, on grass, on asphalt, on a sloping or wet or slippery surface?
• Do your students always where their uniform? Are they familar with what it would be like to be wearing tight clothing, foot wear, shorts and a T-shirt, a dress etc? Tt is one thing to be warmed up and stretched out and wearing loose clothing in the Dojang. It is quite another to try it in a dress in high heels, a pair of tight jeans, with a handful of groceries, a duty belt etc when you're not warmed up and stretched out.
• Have they ever trained in dim light conditions?
• Have they trained with visual/auditory distractions?
• Do we always use a closed fist when striking at the head while wearing gloves and padded helmets? A blow to the head with a fist in a SD situation may not be the wisest tactic. The chance of injuring the hand on someone’s head is fairly substantial even with a well-placed strike. That is why boxer as an example tape their hands and wear gloves. I'll say it again; the chance of injuring your hand on someone's head/face is fairly substantial. If this occurs, depending on the severity of the injury, it could very well limit your options for further SD. Anyone here ever try to manipulate a weapon with broken knuckles? Or a cell phone, or car keys? I've broken a knuckle before and my range of motion in that hand was limited for an extended period of time. Given that manual dexterity is already limited while under duress, you've just made it even harder by busting a knuckle or two, or spraining your wrist on someone's face. And there is no way to know ahead of time whether or not he'll actually be knocked out.
  
  This also doesn't touch on the possibility of blood borne pathogens the bad guy may be carrying. And now you've put yourself in a position of cutting your knuckles on his teeth or 'bleeding' him from the mouth or nose.

Is the student (or the instructor) well versed in the state statutes of force and deadly force? In consideration like bodily harm, great bodily harm and/or death? Subject factors? What a reasonable person would do in the same situation? Are you required to retreat in your state? Does your state have a 'Castle Doctrine'? An instructor doesn't need to be an attorney, but providing the resources for the student to check into it and touching on some of the topics during class time.

Is the student (or the instructor) well versed in the O.O.D.A. loop? Fight or flight? Flinch resonse? Adrenaline responses such as tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, loss of manual dexterity in the extremities? Considerations can include;

• Even powerful strikes in non-lethal areas can fail.
• A situation which starts out at less-than-lethal levels can quickly escalate.
• A proper joint lock, at the appropriate time, 'can' immobilize even an EDP (emotionally disturbed person) even if strikes fail and if properly applied.
• Be as patient as possible for the situation, look for openings.
• The attack will probably take place at the most advantageous time to the attacker and the least advantageous to us. We may be tired, sick, distracted etc yet still be forced into a situation.
• Some of these predators come in packs which backs them bold. And even being physically big isn't always a deterent.

Physical conditioning is also helpful during training, or at least encouraging it. Being physically fit can help us in several areas of a SD situation. It can also help if an injury has been sustained.

Be safe.

 

[Markku P]

my prime goal is to protect myself and those around me.

If your goal is to learn only self defense, then Taekwondo is not the best choice.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

If your goal is to learn only selI certf defense, then Taekwondo is not the best choice.

I certainly dont agree with this. I train in a tkd class where bouncers, police officers and others requiring self defence train. There is absolutely nothing wrong with learning tkd for self defence. If you are talking about classes where it is taught as a sport and with high flashy kicks etc then I agree with you.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I certainly dont agree with this. I train in a tkd class where bouncers, police officers and others requiring self defence train. There is absolutely nothing wrong with learning tkd for self defence. If you are talking about classes where it is taught as a sport and with high flashy kicks etc then I agree with you.

Agreed. Looking at Webster's Dictionary : Martial Art - any of several arts of combat and self defense (as karate and judo) that are widely practiced as sport. With a few exceptions, such as Judo, martial arts began for combat or self defense. Many have morphed some of the techniques into sport. TKD is no exception as it can operate in both venues, though not at the same time. The training methodology differs dramatically even if some of the 'window dressing' is the same i.e. uniforms, rank, certain movements etc. KKW TKD for the most part functions as sport TKD. If memory serves it still falls under the International Sports Division of the Ministry of Culture, Sports and Tourism. This isn't to say that it could be possible that a particular KKW school operates for the purpose of providing realistic self defense training, but it isn't probable and it would have to operate with a dramatically altered curriculum than its sport counterpart.

As many here would agree, there are several 'flavors' of TKD that offer joint locks, throws, chokes etc and in many ways resemble Hapkido or Jujutsu. No, that isn't what is typically thought of in TKD, but those schools do exist. They often go under labels such as Old School TKD, Traditional TKD, Combat TKD, Practical TKD though those don't necessarily mean self defense oriented TKD. But I do know of schools that go by those labels.

 

[Dobbelsteen]

I've been thinking about taking up a new martial art and, as Taekwondo was my first love, I looked for dojangs in my surroundings. I found only two in my city and they both belong to the Belgian branch of the Kukkiwon. I looked up their websites and they seem very sport-oriented. They refer to themselves as "clubs" or "academies", not as dojangs, and to Taekwondo as a sport. I only saw the word "martial art" once as they were talking about the origins of Olympic TKD. They were talking about it as if it was football. There are no ITF dojangs here. Well, according to what I've read so far on this forum, the Kukkiwon federation is heavily focused on the sport aspect of TKD, gives away black belts quite easily, etc. That bothers me a little: I wouldn't like to (accidentally) get involved in a dangerous situation, think that I'm able to defend myself and then wake up in a hospital because no one taught me how to block a punch properly.

I dont know if the Belgian kukkiwon federation is much different from the Dutch one. But in the Netherlands there are certain rules for doing a black belt exam. You cant do the blackbelt exam in your own club, youll have to do a national exam. Therefor, every club has the same requirements for the black belt, and you cant get a black belt if your club is purely focussed on the sport part. Besides, youll have to do taekwondo for a minimum of three years before you can do a Blackbelt exam.

As for the use of the word sport, do you speak Dutch in your area? It seems martial arts are always called 'sports' in Dutch and therefor they are practiced in a 'club' and not in a dojang.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Agreed. Looking at Webster's Dictionary : Martial Art - any of several arts of combat and self defense (as karate and judo) that are widely practiced as sport. With a few exceptions, such as Judo, martial arts began for combat or self defense. Many have morphed some of the techniques into sport. TKD is no exception as it can operate in both venues, though not at the same time. The training methodology differs dramatically even if some of the 'window dressing' is the same i.e. uniforms, rank, certain movements etc. KKW TKD for the most part functions as sport TKD. If memory serves it still falls under the International Sports Division of the Ministry of Culture, Sports and Tourism. This isn't to say that it could be possible that a particular KKW school operates for the purpose of providing realistic self defense training, but it isn't probable and it would have to operate with a dramatically altered curriculum than its sport counterpart.

As many here would agree, there are several 'flavors' of TKD that offer joint locks, throws, chokes etc and in many ways resemble Hapkido or Jujutsu. No, that isn't what is typically thought of in TKD, but those schools do exist. They often go under labels such as Old School TKD, Traditional TKD, Combat TKD, Practical TKD though those don't necessarily mean self defense oriented TKD. But I do know of schools that go by those labels.

Exactly right. The school I train at market themselves as "old school tkd" and I can assure you there are guys I train with that you definetely wouldnt want to mess with, and all they have trained in is tkd. BUT, I can also tell you that if these guys need to defend themselves there will be absolutely no flashy kicks, in fact I doubt you'd see a kick above knee level, if there is even a kick at all. It gets very frustrating to constantly hear people say "tkd is not the best for self defence", they should say "sport tkd is not the best for self defence".

 

[sopraisso]

I certainly dont agree with this. I train in a tkd class where bouncers, police officers and others requiring self defence train. There is absolutely nothing wrong with learning tkd for self defence. If you are talking about classes where it is taught as a sport and with high flashy kicks etc then I agree with you.

Agreed.
No matter the style, most schools are not recommended when it comes to self-defense, unless this is the main objective of their instructions. Furthermore, many styles that have become famous in the fighting sports mainstream (read: MMA) are particularly misleading about their effectiveness regarding self-defense. I recommend fully styles based in civillian defense scenarios, rather than "samurai war-based" ones or worse, sport based styles, but only, off course, if the civillian defense-based styles are teached in a way really aimed at self-defense -- what is very rare to find anywhere today.

Off course I don't mean, for example, boxing (very popular in MMA) is a bad martial art -- you will learn a little more about real fighting at a good boxing gym than at a sport-taekwondo school, for sure, but none of them really teach self-defense. Anyway, I've lost count of how many BJJ fighters have died in Brazil after thinking their technique was so helpful on the street (they get stabbed/shot in the back when attempting rear chokes, kicked while pinning someone on the floor, etc.). I've made some remarks on this subject in my previous response in this thread, so I shouldn't repeat myself here.

Anyway... as I previously stated, it doesn't sound like a great idea to focus your strategy of self-defense from today's dangers on a tool that was created to defend against dangers from the past. And the last part of self-defense is the physical fighting. I'd say allertness and avoidance is by far the most important and effective way of self-defense in most urban sncenarios today -- what doesn't mean that in some places people won't need other approaches to save themselves.

 

[Dirty Dog]

If your goal is to learn only self defense, then Taekwondo is not the best choice.

Maybe not the TKD you teach. Others teach TKD that is very effective for self defense. I'm guessing your training and focus is strictly sport TKD?