Where did DM/COMBOS originate from

[14 Kempo]

Referring to #7 on the street, for most people, I would vote for the knee as a target for the kick along with a #1 block, open or closed, as a guard. Most men can take much more in the ribs, than they can the knee at that angle. But, if it must be ribs, then the floating, or short ribs would be the target. Any higher will not have much affect on a male, you're up into the muscle. For most, my teachings are step aside, kick the knee and run for it. By the time the attacker figures out whether or not he is hurt, you'll probably be 30 to 40 yards away, most likely safe unless they have a gun. Just my opinion.

Also, this technique done in a slightly more advanced way, can take advantage of a left step outward using either a #1 open hand block and grab the wrist or a #1 iron fortress with dragon trap and hold them steady for the kick, again either taking the knee out or the ribs, both are quite effective.

 

[LawDog]

Old #7
This used a side step with a cross palm / knife hand block followed by a side blade kick to the floating ribs,
Two types of side blade kicks were applied,
1) Side roundhouse blade,
2) Side thrusting blade.
One is used for the softer areas and the other is used for heavy damage. One is faster to the point of impact than the other but has less power. All of the chambers for both kicks must be used and properly timed to make both of these kicks work as intended.

 

[RevIV]

Danjo,
You had a crappy experience in SKK.. that sucks.. let it go. Is your new art stagnant? SKK def. is not. If you had a good teacher or stayed long enough you would of found out that SKK is all about interpretations. Ever heard of the 12 rings? Combo 3 done with good basics def. has a chamber after the groin strike. Most of the arts that GM Pesare has black belts in where also influences in Kaju correct? so how could there not be some common thread?

Okay meatwad lets do this. if we were to group certain combos we might be able to see where they are from or what the add ons are.
combos - 6,7,8,9,12,14 kicking.
6 front - 7 side kick
8 - front then a kempo roundhouse (ball roundhouse)
9- same with side thrust after.
12 - combo 6 with a spin kick.
14 - scissor kick all of these seem to be pretty TKD to me. But thats to simple since everyone has a front ball kick -
19 - basic 6 with a judo like throw and some elbows before the throw.
16 - kicking with a trap (i do this soley off of a right lapel grab now) looks to be some Ju Jitsu in there after the kick with the wrist lock arm bar take down and elbow snap.
combo 4 which i was told was created by Prof. Walter Godin.

combo 5 - this one is going to get you.. I found Combo 5 on a old Lima Lama tape that i have. But it was done the advanced way with the chicken wrist, knife hand trap(simo. up and down motion) it was a defense off of a front kick, then you do your back punch to face- take out the back leg with either a side kick or shuffle in snapping the Knee with a hyper extension

15 - seems more Kung-fu to me
13 - all Villari
11 - Def. Kempo. the ending when you grab the leg and flip them over for the hip dislocation was done by the Late David German all the time.
well theres some of my two cents.
In Peace
Jesse

 

[SK101]

I think I see where Meatwad is leading with this thread. I don't think he/she wants to know what GrandMaster or from what system they got taught from. I think that Meatwad is asking how many different styles can be seen in the combinations/dm's/kempos can be represented. In other words, in your humble opinion, what style influenced those particular masters to create specific combinations? Let's take for instance, um, I don't know...like 12. It could have come from Tae Kwon Do, seeing that it's timing their movement with a front kick, followed by a spinning back kick. I'm hoping this is what meatwad means...because if it is, this thread can get really interesting then.

I am no expert on Tae Kwon Do, but what I know of it they usually don't teach the back kick. Instead it is a back side kick. Not to mention the large hand movements for blocking. The DM has 2 kicks in it granted, but the only DMs wiht heavy quantities of kick compared to hand strikes are
6-9,11-12,14,16, 28, 30, 32. Maybe 22 & 27. If you count the last two thats 13 out of 45.

 

[Danjo]

Danjo,
You had a crappy experience in SKK.. that sucks.. let it go. Is your new art stagnant? SKK def. is not. If you had a good teacher or stayed long enough you would of found out that SKK is all about interpretations. Ever heard of the 12 rings? Combo 3 done with good basics def. has a chamber after the groin strike. Most of the arts that GM Pesare has black belts in where also influences in Kaju correct? so how could there not be some common thread?

I had a crappy experience? Only with the organization.

My opinions about SKK's effectiveness are derived from what I have seen from the people I trained with, the head high ranking instructors and the various videos from Villari and Mattera. That I note that it is not the same as Kajukenbo is merely pointing out a fact, not bashing the style.

The problem that I have with SKK as a style are the same one's I have with Shotokan or other martial arts that utilize classical karate as a base. Can they be effective? Yes. Do you have to "Interpret" everything and change it in order to make it effective? Yes. When a system at its base has to be modified in order to make it work then it lacks effeciency IMO. Why learn ANY techniques off of a Karate forward punch? Why waste the time? Who punches like that in the street, bar, alley, school-yard etc. ? No one I've ever seen. So why train for that? At least with Shotokan etc. they are trying to preserve a classical art and want to teach it as it used to be taught for reasons that have nothing to do with practicality. What is the excuse with SKK? Why not throw out those unrealistic defenses and come up with some that are designed to counter realistic attacks?

Oh I know you'll tell me that your school does this after they have spent however long teaching unrealistic defenses to their students etc., but why spend any time at all on that stuff? It's like someone's saying, "Well, first we're going to teach you the wrong way to do this, THEN we'll teach you how to make this stuff work in real life by changing it all around." or "It's the concepts tht are important, not the individual techniques." Well, it would help IMO if the actual techniques aligned with the concepts themselves. Outdated attack scenarios and the defenses designed to counter them are the bane of all serious martial artists. I know they're in there because of Pesare's background etc., but I think that it is why people like Cerio left that model and changed what he was doing so drastically from the stuff he had originally taught to Villari. These are purely my observations based on comparison. Now, if there are SKK people tht think outside the box, fine. But one has to ask oneself the purpose of having the box in the first place. SKK is not alone in this problem by any means as I've pointed out, but you need to understand that I'm not some 20 year-old with a bad experience making these observations.

 

[marlon]

Mr.Bishop
when teaching kajukenbo do your techniques ever need to be modified based on body mass and body type of the individual learning or does all kajukenbo techniques work for everyone as the text book version? When teaching how do you ensure fundemental basics are used properly in a technique, i.e. what are the teaching methods used to ensure proper basics are used during a technique?

Respectfully,
marlon

 

[Danjo]

Mr.Bishop
when teaching kajukenbo do your techniques ever need to be modified based on body mass and body type of the individual learning or does all kajukenbo techniques work for everyone as the text book version? When teaching how do you ensure fundemental basics are used properly in a technique, i.e. what are the teaching methods used to ensure proper basics are used during a technique?

Respectfully,
marlon

Well John Bishop can answer this for himself better than I can, but I can start. Yes, the techniques will need to be modified according to the body type of the individual doing them to an extent, but not much. We drill by doing a particular technique against the entire class one after the other as quickly as they can attack us. The attacks are not unrealistic in the first place, however. In other words, we don't learn to defend against a karate style attack that no one will really use. We have may have to modify something due to size descrepancy, but not attack scenario.

 

[RevIV]

"Oh I know you'll tell me that your school does this after they have spent however long teaching unrealistic defenses to their students etc., but why spend any time at all on that stuff? It's like someone's saying, "Well, first we're going to teach you the wrong way to do this, THEN we'll teach you how to make this stuff work in real life by changing it all around." or "It's the concepts tht are important, not the individual techniques." Well, it would help IMO if the actual techniques aligned with the concepts themselves. Outdated attack scenarios and the defenses designed to counter them are the bane of all serious martial artists. I know they're in there because of Pesare's background etc., but I think that it is why people like Cerio left that model and changed what he was doing so drastically from the stuff he had originally taught to Villari. These are purely my observations based on comparison. Now, if there are SKK people tht think outside the box, fine. But one has to ask oneself the purpose of having the box in the first place. SKK is not alone in this problem by any means as I've pointed out, but you need to understand that I'm not some 20 year-old with a bad experience making these observations." Qoute from Danjo

Danjo, I have heard this exact thing from you before. i do not teach all the combos off of a right straight punch like my predecessors. I hope i do not catch to much slack from my fellow SKK'ers. I am not a 20 year old but i am a new generation of teachers coming from the SKK lineage. I am very young compared to others but i do have experience, almost 20 years in Kempo with roughly 20 hours a week of teaching and training since i was 14 non stop, then more hours when i opened full time 7 years ago. I have taken the Combo's and tried not to alter the actual move just the attack. This does not mean i teach with a straight punch then show the students how clever i am, i teach them this way from the start.
Combo 1 - is a defense off of a RT front kick, RT hook, LT hook, the only difference in the technique is the timing of the tiger rake to the face, it comes the same time as the block to the RT hook and the chicken wrist is used for the block of the LT hook.
Combo 2 - done off of a LT jab/or hook (added a defelting block from my gaurd) and then a RT cross punch with the attackers RT leg back.
still core SKK - just taught slightly differently. I could go on with the different attacks through the combos but i do not want to bore you. NOT all SKK people stay in the mold. But we are SKK.
In Peace,
Jesse

 

[Danjo]

"Oh I know you'll tell me that your school does this after they have spent however long teaching unrealistic defenses to their students etc., but why spend any time at all on that stuff? It's like someone's saying, "Well, first we're going to teach you the wrong way to do this, THEN we'll teach you how to make this stuff work in real life by changing it all around." or "It's the concepts tht are important, not the individual techniques." Well, it would help IMO if the actual techniques aligned with the concepts themselves. Outdated attack scenarios and the defenses designed to counter them are the bane of all serious martial artists. I know they're in there because of Pesare's background etc., but I think that it is why people like Cerio left that model and changed what he was doing so drastically from the stuff he had originally taught to Villari. These are purely my observations based on comparison. Now, if there are SKK people tht think outside the box, fine. But one has to ask oneself the purpose of having the box in the first place. SKK is not alone in this problem by any means as I've pointed out, but you need to understand that I'm not some 20 year-old with a bad experience making these observations." Qoute from Danjo

Danjo, I have heard this exact thing from you before. i do not teach all the combos off of a right straight punch like my predecessors. I hope i do not catch to much slack from my fellow SKK'ers. I am not a 20 year old but i am a new generation of teachers coming from the SKK lineage. I am very young compared to others but i do have experience, almost 20 years in Kempo with roughly 20 hours a week of teaching and training since i was 14 non stop, then more hours when i opened full time 7 years ago. I have taken the Combo's and tried not to alter the actual move just the attack. This does not mean i teach with a straight punch then show the students how clever i am, i teach them this way from the start.
Combo 1 - is a defense off of a RT front kick, RT hook, LT hook, the only difference in the technique is the timing of the tiger rake to the face, it comes the same time as the block to the RT hook and the chicken wrist is used for the block of the LT hook.
Combo 2 - done off of a LT jab/or hook (added a defelting block from my gaurd) and then a RT cross punch with the attackers RT leg back.
still core SKK - just taught slightly differently. I could go on with the different attacks through the combos but i do not want to bore you. NOT all SKK people stay in the mold. But we are SKK.
In Peace,
Jesse

Okay Jesse. That's cool, but you have to acknowledge that you're not teaching what most SKK schools are teaching then. That makes you the exception in the SKK world, not the rule.

When you and people like Matt Barnes go out and modify what you teach based on outside input and personal innovation, you're not following the formula. I applaud you for wht you're doing, but you're basically reaffirming what I was saying.

 

[John Bishop]

Mr.Bishop
when teaching kajukenbo do your techniques ever need to be modified based on body mass and body type of the individual learning or does all kajukenbo techniques work for everyone as the text book version?

I may not be understanding how you use the term "modified". If your saying, does a technique in a combination have to be changed to make it work for some people, I would say no. We do have some variations that women and children practice though.
Like Danjo said, we practice techniques in the "monkey" line. One person does the same technique against everyone in the line. That way they learn how to apply the technique against attackers that may be bigger or smaller, faster or slower, weaker or stronger. The technique dosen't change, the application does. In other words, if a attacker has more or less reach then me, or has more or less strength then me, I would have to change the angle or depth of my movement into him. But the strike, kick, lock, or throw would not change.
I won't say that all Kajukenbo techniques work. But I will say that they all work for somebody. In other words, I don't expect every student to be able to do every technique great. I do expect everyone to be proficient at them, and eventually be able to explain and teach them.
Now, in referance to my comment; "But I will say that they all work for somebody". As a example, there are 21 punch counters and 26 Alphabet techniques used for defenses against various punching attacks. I expect that one student will find a handfull of these techniques that fit their body and abilities, and do them very well. And other students will find a handfull that they are very good at. But they won't be the same techniques for each student. So all the techniques are useful to somebody.

When teaching how do you ensure fundemental basics are used properly in a technique, i.e. what are the teaching methods used to ensure proper basics are used during a technique?
Respectfully,
marlon

Techniques can be adapted without changing the "fundamental Basics" (stance, hip rotation, kick, strike, etc). Adjusting the angle or depth of attack, dosen't change the technique.
I can't tell someone who's 6' 2" that he has to step in at the same angle as someone who's 5' 8" when he does a kick or strike. It's not going to work since they have a differant reach with their kicks or strikes. If the shorter person has to step in to 10:00 for his kick. And the taller person has to step in to 9:00 for his kick because his leg is longer, it's still the same combination, and the basic technique (kick) is the same.

 

[RevIV]

Okay Jesse. That's cool, but you have to acknowledge that you're not teaching what most SKK schools are teaching then. That makes you the exception in the SKK world, not the rule.

When you and people like Matt Barnes go out and modify what you teach based on outside input and personal innovation, you're not following the formula. I applaud you for wht you're doing, but you're basically reaffirming what I was saying.

Ok acknowledged and excepted so thank you. This whole modify word does not settle well though. I have always taught the way i teach now, i feel that i am just a little smarter through life experiences. there has always been what i am teaching, i am just starting with it instead of progressing the student to that point. I figure if i can teach the students what i have figured out through the years now, they will be much better than i could ever hope to be. -- this hurts, but from your posts i guess i am reaffirming what you are saying but i know the hearts of a lot of the people on this forum and they are doing what you think is right, its just a different path for the same outcome.
In Peace
Jesse

 

[marlon]

I may not be understanding how you use the term "modified". If your saying, does a technique in a combination have to be changed to make it work for some people, I would say no. We do have some variations that women and children practice though.
Like Danjo said, we practice techniques in the "monkey" line. One person does the same technique against everyone in the line. That way they learn how to apply the technique against attackers that may be bigger or smaller, faster or slower, weaker or stronger. The technique dosen't change, the application does. In other words, if a attacker has more or less reach then me, or has more or less strength then me, I would have to change the angle or depth of my movement into him. But the strike, kick, lock, or throw would not change.
I won't say that all Kajukenbo techniques work. But I will say that they all work for somebody. In other words, I don't expect every student to be able to do every technique great. I do expect everyone to be proficient at them, and eventually be able to explain and teach them.
Now, in referance to my comment; "But I will say that they all work for somebody". As a example, there are 21 punch counters and 26 Alphabet techniques used for defenses against various punching attacks. I expect that one student will find a handfull of these techniques that fit their body and abilities, and do them very well. And other students will find a handfull that they are very good at. But they won't be the same techniques for each student. So all the techniques are useful to somebody.



Techniques can be adapted without changing the "fundamental Basics" (stance, hip rotation, kick, strike, etc). Adjusting the angle or depth of attack, dosen't change the technique.
I can't tell someone who's 6' 2" that he has to step in at the same angle as someone who's 5' 8" when he does a kick or strike. It's not going to work since they have a differant reach with their kicks or strikes. If the shorter person has to step in to 10:00 for his kick. And the taller person has to step in to 9:00 for his kick because his leg is longer, it's still the same combination, and the basic technique (kick) is the same.

Thank you Mr. Bishop. then it appears we are doing the same thing and understanding our techniques strengths and limitations the same way., We also include the `monkey line`although i never had a name for it. We just lined up and went at it. and my choice of the word `modify`was a poor selection. BTW this is also the way i was taught from the beginning although we did not and do not have special techniques for women and children and have them adapt as you say.

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[marlon]

Okay Jesse. That's cool, but you have to acknowledge that you're not teaching what most SKK schools are teaching then. That makes you the exception in the SKK world, not the rule.

When you and people like Matt Barnes go out and modify what you teach based on outside input and personal innovation, you're not following the formula. I applaud you for wht you're doing, but you're basically reaffirming what I was saying.

Perhaps, it is that i am lucky but Prof.I, Jesse, Chris, Matt, Kimo, Elizabeth Gilberg, Danny Masson have been the rule for my skk experience and those who do differently the exception. I am grateful for them and skk. There are bad school in every system...and good ones need to get a higher porofile as it serves the whole community better to do so.

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Gufbal1982]

I am no expert on Tae Kwon Do, but what I know of it they usually don't teach the back kick. Instead it is a back side kick. Not to mention the large hand movements for blocking. The DM has 2 kicks in it granted, but the only DMs wiht heavy quantities of kick compared to hand strikes are
6-9,11-12,14,16, 28, 30, 32. Maybe 22 & 27. If you count the last two thats 13 out of 45.

Ok sk101...it seems like all you want to do is troll me. You have been trying to pick on my every word for a little while now. I agreed with you...was nice to you but you have mistaken my kindness for weakness. Whatever floats your boat. If you could have read my post all the way thru you would have seen I said could be...that doesn't speak in absolutes. All I wanted to see was a good discussion of minds coming together. This thread turned into an attack on danjo's skk training, which I find offensive. I did my best to give him a good experience in the art...I do that with all my students. Danjo choose to study with me...I didn't force him to sign anything. He followed me when I got transferred to a different location. That says a lot. Anyway, can we go back to the discussion topic now? I've said my peace.

Number 3:

This one has a lot of potential. First is the step,duck, check with the left and punch with the right. I go to the bladder. I think this first movement has elements of some boxing footwork and handwork. the stepping outside the strike, the small bob and weave of the head and then the body blow. Next part...grabbing the shoulder pulling into a back punch to the temple as you grab the opposite shoulder to use their leverage against them. This represents to me the aikido principle of using the opponents energy against them. Finally I have then ending with a thrust punch to the groin and a cross hand shuto to the throat. These are my opinions and thoughts. Any one like to change or add anything? Feel free to do so without a personal attack.

 

[shaolin ninja 4]

Hey Gufball,
Does Mattera have all 108 combos?

 

[Gufbal1982]

Hey Gufball,
Does Mattera have all 108 combos?

From what I understand, no.

 

[Danjo]

This thread turned into an attack on danjo's skk training, which I find offensive. I did my best to give him a good experience in the art...I do that with all my students. Danjo choose to study with me...I didn't force him to sign anything. He followed me when I got transferred to a different location. That says a lot. Anyway, can we go back to the discussion topic now? I've said my peace.

Michelle was one of the better instructors in the USSD IMO. She was enthusiastic, she was open-minded, and she was responsive to her students. All of these qualities got her in trouble while she was there for various reasons. Her enthusiasm threatened the ego of the studio owner where I first met her. Michelle typically quadrupled the enrollment of a studio when she went there within 6 months. Her open-mindedness got her in trouble because she was honest about where the system came from (i.e., Villari) and that didn't sit well with those toeing the party line. Her responsiveness to her student's got her in trouble because she was willing to let those of us that wanted to train a lot harder than the headquarters wanted us to.

When she left Placentia to go to Seal Beach, several of us followed her there. That got her in deep doo doo because the HQ thought she'd violated franchise agreements and stole us from Placentia. It wasn't true, but no one believed us when we said we went on our own.

In other words, she was real in a world where that was not encouraged and they treated her badly from what I personally saw. When she quit ( I would say was driven out), so did most of us that were left.

Whatever my opinions are of SKK as a martial art, they have nothing to do with Michelle's qualities as an instructor in the USSD. My opinions of SKK are derived from what I have seen since then and compared to it. It's my opinion and everyone else is entitled to their's also.

 

[LawDog]

What happened to GufBal1982 happens to many energetic instructors. An organization should give the highly positive instructor a "pat on the back" for being self motivated. If it does good for the art and school then it is not a bad thing.
Before I owned my own school I taught at my instructors school. I use to run my group classes for a duration of two - two and a half hours. The other instructors complained to the school owner about it. My response to the school owner was always, my class is always standing room only, their happy and your making money.
My hats off to the self motivated instructors, can't get enough of them.
This is just my own view point.

 

[14 Kempo]

What happened to GufBal1982 happens to many energetic instructors. An organization should give the highly positive instructor a "pat on the back" for being self motivated. If it does good for the art and school then it is not a bad thing.
Before I owned my own school I taught at my instructors school. I use to run my group classes for a duration of two - two and a half hours. The other instructors complained to the school owner about it. My response to the school owner was always, my class is always standing room only, their happy and your making money.
My hats off to the self motivated instructors, can't get enough of them.
This is just my own view point.

This and previous statements are true, I will agree with them, however, I also want to expose the fact that although it is sad that people have had bad experiences with certain organizations, it is not fair to condemn all others that are having a positive experience. All large organizations have good and bad, it is unfortunate, but factual.

Personally I haven't had those experiences and I hope I never do. But if by chance I do, I hope I will be mature enough to let it go and move on, and not live for years wasting energy on the negative. How about taking the experience to the positive? It seemingly is motivating quite a few people to further thier training, to move into an art, or arts, that are a better fit for them. If they hadn't had that previous experience, where would they be today? I would say the same place.

Again, I state, I don't believe it is SKK that has issues, the art is a good art. It is the instruction and business practices of some that is causing some people to stereotype the art. I don't deny things have happened beyond some wrongful business practices, I just haven't seen them with my own eyes ... I will even admit that maybe I've just been lucky. I hope my luck holds up!

 

[Matt]

I think SKK has more in common with TKD and Kyokushinkai than it does with Kajukenbo. Pesare studied TKD longer, put in forms from those arts and used those style of attacks as the basis for his Combinations. Heck, he even used to call his art Kempo Taekwondo in his old adds. Given that, to me SKK is more like a distant cousin of Kajukenbo than it is a direct descendant.

Funny (well, at least to me) story: This is how I know SKK does not resemble TKD very much. My friend Geoff, who came down to work where I do from VT just a couple months shy of his black belt test in TKD wanted a place to work out and some help reviewing, so he could go back and test. All the local TKD schools were ATA and he was ITF, so there was no suitable TKD school for his purposes available. I made our school available on the off hours, and 'coached' him for the last couple months. I gained a working knowledge of the forms and techniques he had, and he got feedback and a person to practice on. When he took his test he passed, but he sure got a ration of 'sunshine' when it came to the self defense portion of his test. Let's just say that his instructors 'noticed a little difference'. He ended up joining our school for a while until he went off to graduate school.

Matt