Where did DM/COMBOS originate from
- Thread starter MeatWad2
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Kajukenbo, with Sonny Gascon being a student of originally, then him, Leoning, Godin, into Karazenpo Go shinjutsu. to Pesare, Cerio, and Villari, in SKK ultimately. Each making changes along the way, with Villare adding 27-108 I believe. There are others that contributed, and I didn't mean to leave them out, just being basic as possible, for a quick response.
I would think that George Pesare had the biggest influence on what was to become Shaolin Kempo. His training with Sonny Gascon was only 2-3 months in California. But he trained for years in Tae Kwon Do, Judo, Hapkido, and other arts in Rhode Island.
The SKK curriculum and Kajukenbo curriculum have been recorded on videos by Fred Villari and Adriano Emperado. So anyone can verify this statement. There are NO techniques or forms in SKK that are from Kajukenbo.
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Having been watching the recorded stuff of both I would agree with this (there are a few the same though, from watching GM Forbach's video). My only point was to not slight anyone, or style, (we've seen that can of worms-lol) was the first few guys were Kajukenbo students, and Mr. Pesare was taught by them, so, it was part of the chain, no matter how big the link is. However, the material, overall is different.
Danjo
Master Black Belt
Pesare said tha his only instructor in Kenpo was Gascon. He did not train with Godin or Leoning. He supposedly had 10 combinations from Gascon and 4 forms. From the descriptions of those combinations that I've been given, they not only did not ressemble Kajukenbo, but they do not resemble what SKK does now.
In SKK, there is only one part of one technique that looks similar to a technique from Kajukenbo. It is DM #4. However, the block is different and so is the finish of the technique.
SKK is basically Pesare, Cerio and Villari created. They deserve the full credit for it.
Gufbal1982
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I think I see where Meatwad is leading with this thread. I don't think he/she wants to know what GrandMaster or from what system they got taught from. I think that Meatwad is asking how many different styles can be seen in the combinations/dm's/kempos can be represented. In other words, in your humble opinion, what style influenced those particular masters to create specific combinations? Let's take for instance, um, I don't know...like 12. It could have come from Tae Kwon Do, seeing that it's timing their movement with a front kick, followed by a spinning back kick. I'm hoping this is what meatwad means...because if it is, this thread can get really interesting then.
Danjo
Master Black Belt
Ah so. A much better idea IMO to go with. Let's start with the order that they are taught then. I'll take DM/Cobo #6 since it's by far the easiest. Front-snap/Front-ball kick to the groin, then cross and cover. Sometimes done with a soft inward left hand parry. Pretty basic kick in the MA's. Even some forms of Kung Fu use it and call it things like Dragon Stamp Kick etc. If the inward parry is added, this brings an Escrima or Kung Fu flavor to it. Pesare claimed to study escrima, so this could be the source of it.
Here's Pesare's MA Bio from his website for future reference:
"Grandmaster Pesare is a 10th Degree Black Belt and is the undisputed founder of Kempo Karate in New England. The 10th Degree Black Belt level is one of the highest achievements in the Martial Arts community and is at the Professorship level. Grandmaster Pesare began his martial arts career with Karazenpo-Go-Shinjutsu in 1958 with his instructor, Grandmaster Victor (Sonny) Gascon, one of the Kempo founders in America. Grandmaster Gascon has since retired, and given the responsibility of teaching the true Karazenpo-Go-Shinjutsu to Grandmaster George Pesare. Since then, Mr. Pesare continued his training in the following martial art disciplines:
5th Degree Black Belt in Judo
4th Degree Black Belt in Taekwondo
4th Degree Black Belt in Eskrima
2nd Degree Black Belt in Aikido "
Gufbal1982
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I hope Meatwad wants this thread like this...if not, sorry I took it over! Anyway, I think the dragontrap block also adds a bit of a kung fu flavor...you could follow it up with a chin na type lock.
Actually, having seen SGM Pesare's folks performing techniques and forms, and having been to a seminar or two taught by SGM Pesare, I would beg to differ. I found substantial overlap between SGM Pesare's material and the katas and combinations (below 26) of SKK.
To your knowledge, there is only one that looks similar. This is however based on your Kajukenbo and SKK experience. What is now combination six (just a front kick) used to have a left parry and right hammer to the bicep with it. There's pictures (used to be on the KGS site) of Sonny Gascon doing it that way. Sound familiar?
We're not looking to be 'the next kajukenbo', but we are trying to connect the historical dots.
Gufbal1982
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Matt, there is no doubt about where combinations 1-26 came from. However, we're taking a different approach to find out what influences are represented in the kempo/combination/dm/name du jour. a left parry and right hammer to the bicept gives the combination a bit of a kali feel...would you agree or not?
Danjo
Master Black Belt
Okay. Here's the description given to me by Joe Shuras of the original Karazenpo #3 combination:
Here's the orignal #3 as taught to George Pesare by Sonny Gascon. You're fighting two people. One in front and one behind. The one behind grabs you arms pinned (bear hug from behind), the one in front punches to your head. You duck and immediately punch, front two knuckle to groin and you're in a kneeling stance, right knee kneeling but not touching the floor. The drop down called 'duck & punch' releases the bear hug and the left elbow shoots to elbow position as a strike to the rear as you simultaneously punch the groin.. You then straighten back up with a cup & saucer (left fist over right fist) which is a full power elbow to the rear. Next, from that position you throw a right boxing uppercut to your opponent's jaw who was bent over from the blow to the groin, cross and cover, checking both downed opponents. "Joe"
Which combination in SKK does this resemble and which counter in Kajukenbo does this resemble? To my mind: neither. The Punch Counter that you say Gascon was demonstrating is not the one used in SKK. Anything above combination 26 was made up by Villari or one of his students so that wouldn't apply to my statement. I'm referring to the original 10 combinations Pesare got from Gascon when I say they do not look like Kajukenbo nor SKK from what I've been told. I've seen all 26 SKK combos from both Mattera's tapes and Villari's dvds. I also have the Kajukenbo material through black belt, so my basis for comparison is pretty solid.
LawDog
Master Black Belt
Danjo,
A few questions ,
I was shown #3 back in 1970, it wasn't the same as what you have described. Who exlained it to you that way?
You are correct, the early USSD instructors book had only 26 combinations in it, none where of a two vs one application, (I just re-read my original book).
The tapes of Matterias that you have seen, when were they produced?
Just curious,
Al C.
A few questions ,
I was shown #3 back in 1970, it wasn't the same as what you have described. Who exlained it to you that way?
You are correct, the early USSD instructors book had only 26 combinations in it, none where of a two vs one application, (I just re-read my original book).
The tapes of Matterias that you have seen, when were they produced?
Just curious,
Al C.
Danjo
Master Black Belt
Joe Shuras was the one that gave me the description. I merely cut and pasted it from an email I had from him a couple of years ago.
Mattera's tapes were made either in the late 90's or early 2000's. Master Black was only a 4th degree then if that helps any. Actually Gufbal1982 could probably tell us when those tapes were made.
I'm familiar with that version, and I think you are confusing technique with application. SGM Pesare tends to emphasize 'power' moves, and explains just about every 'cup and saucer' in the kata series (he calls them pinions still) as a power rearward elbow toward an attacker behind you as well. However, the specific application of 3 you reference, courtesy of Joe Shuras fits a Hawaiian 2-man attack scenario reasonably well. Most current practitioners use a different application, but perform a remarkably similar move technically. Remove the two attackers and take a look at what the person doing combination 3 is doing:
You duck and immediately punch, front two knuckle to groin and you're in a kneeling stance, right knee kneeling but not touching the floor.
So, step forward left, right front two knuckle punch to the groin. Check. I think usually in Kajukenbo forms when you do that, you call it the running man stance and use a spearhand.
You then straighten back up with a cup & saucer (left fist over right fist) which is a full power elbow to the rear.
So here, you straighten up, naturally shifting weight back toward the right leg while pulling the right hand back to chamber with the left arm horizontally across your midsection. Check. Most folks these days slide the hand across the opponent's back up to the near shoulder to help keep him bent over. Either way, the right hand is pulled to chamber and the left forearm is horizontal across the body at waist level. Same technique, slightly different application.
Next, from that position you throw a right boxing uppercut to your opponent's jaw who was bent over from the blow to the groin
Today most folks call it a 'back two knuckle punch', and since the hand has helped him lean forward more, the temple is a logical target at that level. You guys don't do groin then face shots in Kajukenbo? I thought I had seen some but could be mistaken.
cross and cover, checking both downed opponents.
In a two person technique, the takedown and punch might not make sense. In a one person technique, it seems both Kajukenbo and Shaolin Kempo people think it is a good idea to take a guy down to the ground and finish him there. It's funny how Kempo and Kajukenbo guys both cross and cover like that though.
To my mind, it pretty much resembles a more 'stiff' version of the three I do today. Similar biomechanically, but just described with a different application. It's almost like people could apply their combinations off of something other than a front punch if they tried.
The person Joe Shuras is talking about receiving this description of combination three from is the same person who states that (to paraphrase pretty closely) with 7 forms and 22 combinations and some imagination you could have thousands of techniques. You just have to practice the basics and apply them.
At the USSD you went to for a while. It's a variation that we teach in our school.
Yet they do look like SKK based on what I've seen SGM Pesare and / or his black belts do. And the 'above 26' is sort of a 'rule of thumb'. There's some that may have been kempo techniques created by Nick Cerio that were adopted. The 'wholesale creation' portion came between 35 and 40.
How about the folks who were there before Villari. How about the folks who were there before Nick Cerio created Nick Cerio's Kenpo . They seem to describe something that overlaps pretty well.
Again, I'm not trying to say that "Kajukenbo is Shaolin Kempo". What we who keep trying to draw a connection are trying to do is to set up a historical provenance.
My brother and I both worked in a factory during high school, and some of the time that I should have been at college. We learned to assemble test equipment there. I went to college, he didn't, he's still there wiring amplifiers. What he and I do now is different. However, we still learned to strip wires there. We still tinker with electronics, but now do so differently and nobody would necessarily get us confused or assume we do the same thing. But we both worked at that factory.
SKK shares some of the same DNA as Kajukenbo from a technical and strategic standpoint. They have become separate species. They still share a common ancestry.
marlon
Master Black Belt
There is a definite Chow influence to SKK. The chu'an fa branch of Kajukenbo seems to be more similar to skk than original method. Let's remember that kajukenbo has differences in it also. There is kempo roots in SKK which seems to have a Naha te background; there is a sillum kung fu influence; jujitsu/ aiki jitsu; american boxing and GM William Chow, who is said to have learned kung fu from his father, although there is debate about this. Apart from this as much as i know SKK is SKK.
Respectfully,
Marlon
Respectfully,
Marlon
Danjo
Master Black Belt
There are going to be a lot of techniques that are found in Kajukenbo that are found in other arts. Kajukenbo is a blending of various arts to begin with, but it doesn't make it the same thing. The above mentioned technique is not in one of the Counters in the Original Method (which is what Gascon and Leoning would have been studying back in the 50's), though it is in some of the Pinans/Palama sets.
I don't think this is in the #3 in either Villari's or Mattera's videos. After the punch to the groin, you pop up and the right hand swings up to a back fist to the temple while the left holds and pulls the attacker's right shoulder down and forward. I don't see any cup and saucer or elbow to the rear hear at all.
Sure we do. We also do front snap kicks, but that doesn't make us Shotokan Karate either.
Again, the fact that SKK has it's people cross and cover after a technique does not make them the same thing.
Well, I think that's a stretch. When yopu break down the moves, they look totally different to me. If the original #3 was a two man defense, then it is not the same as the #3 that has been taught since Villari started his thing.
Yes, but what they taught at the school I went to is the same as what is found on Villari's dvds and Mattera's tapes also. So if you're doing something different than that, I would say that it's not standard SKK. Once you start saying things like, "Well, if you change this to a one man defense, and re-arrange the techniques involved, then it starts to look like Kajukenbo." You've already conceded that it's not the same thing. That would be like me saying, "Well, if you take that Shotokan one-step sparring drill where the Uke punches the guy to the chest and change it to a right cross to the face, make that outside forarm block into a circular block with a follow-up eye rake and added a roundhouse kick to the solar plexus with a cross and cover, it's be the same as Kajukenbo."
Fine. But that's not SKK according to how it's defined by Villari and Mattera. Does Pesare call his art SKK?
Historically there is a link. Gascon was Leoning's student. Pesare was Gascon's student. Cerio was Pesare's student and Villari was Cerio's student. The link is there in that sense. However, given the extrememly limited amount of material (10 combinations and 4 forms) that Pesare got from Gascon, and given that even those forms and combinations weren't strictly Kajukenbo. And given how many things have been added over the years and changed etc., it's not good to call it the same thing. In fact, it's misleading to say that SKK is 4th generation Kajukenbo. We all believed that once before the internet and video told the tale, but it should be put to rest IMO. When trying to be historically accurate, one should admit these things. In Kajukenbo no one says, "It's second generation Danzan Ryu Jiu Jiutsu" merely because one of the Founders was a black belt in that art. We acknowledge the contributions from that art that went in, but we don't try to claim it's the same thing.
I'll admit that it's a pet peeve of mine having gone to brown belt in SKK and then thinking I'd only have to make some minor adjustments when going to Kajukenbo only to find a very different martial art from what I'd been studying.
I think SKK has more in common with TKD and Kyokushinkai than it does with Kajukenbo. Pesare studied TKD longer, put in forms from those arts and used those style of attacks as the basis for his Combinations. Heck, he even used to call his art Kempo Taekwondo in his old adds. Given that, to me SKK is more like a distant cousin of Kajukenbo than it is a direct descendant.
Gufbal1982
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Those tapes of when Master Black was a 4th were made at the old headquarters, which was the old Lake Forest Dojo, which has been moved since those tapes were made.
let's move on to 7, shall we? I was originally taught 7 with an step out, sideblade kick to the ribs, cross out and go on guard. If you go with this way, you can see a little TKD influence. However, from what I was taught at 2nd dan with Villari, you add a backfist to it after the kick. Gives it a different flavor...any thoughts?
let's move on to 7, shall we? I was originally taught 7 with an step out, sideblade kick to the ribs, cross out and go on guard. If you go with this way, you can see a little TKD influence. However, from what I was taught at 2nd dan with Villari, you add a backfist to it after the kick. Gives it a different flavor...any thoughts?
Danjo
Master Black Belt
I like 7 because it introduces one to angles. I also like the short ribs as a target. The back fist is alright as a followup, however, you could add a lot of adlibs in there after that initial kick.
