Where did DM/COMBOS originate from

[Gufbal1982]

Michelle was one of the better instructors in the USSD IMO. She was enthusiastic, she was open-minded, and she was responsive to her students. All of these qualities got her in trouble while she was there for various reasons. Her enthusiasm threatened the ego of the studio owner where I first met her. Michelle typically quadrupled the enrollment of a studio when she went there within 6 months. Her open-mindedness got her in trouble because she was honest about where the system came from (i.e., Villari) and that didn't sit well with those toeing the party line. Her responsiveness to her student's got her in trouble because she was willing to let those of us that wanted to train a lot harder than the headquarters wanted us to.

When she left Placentia to go to Seal Beach, several of us followed her there. That got her in deep doo doo because the HQ thought she'd violated franchise agreements and stole us from Placentia. It wasn't true, but no one believed us when we said we went on our own.

In other words, she was real in a world where that was not encouraged and they treated her badly from what I personally saw. When she quit ( I would say was driven out), so did most of us that were left.

Whatever my opinions are of SKK as a martial art, they have nothing to do with Michelle's qualities as an instructor in the USSD. My opinions of SKK are derived from what I have seen since then and compared to it. It's my opinion and everyone else is entitled to their's also.

I would agree with the driven out part...but that's a whole other story! I did get in a lot of trouble now that I think about it...lol. I was in trouble like every single day almost. I didn't care though. I ran those schools the best I could. I never got tired of teaching...only negativity. ANYWAY...let's talk about the different martial arts styles represented in the techniques again...shall we?

How does combination/DM 5 sound?

 

[DavidCC]

I would agree with the driven out part...but that's a whole other story! I did get in a lot of trouble now that I think about it...lol. I was in trouble like every single day almost. I didn't care though. I ran those schools the best I could. I never got tired of teaching...only negativity. ANYWAY...let's talk about the different martial arts styles represented in the techniques again...shall we?

How does combination/DM 5 sound?

How many of the combos use lessons/movements/principles from the Pinan series?

 

[marlon]

How many of the combos use lessons/movements/principles from the Pinan series?

combo three is right there at the beginning of 5 pinan

marlon

 

[Gufbal1982]

How many of the combos use lessons/movements/principles from the Pinan series?

That's a really good question...I know there are some in the kata's for sure, like 26 is in kata 3 and kata 6...kata 6 also has 19 and 4 in it. I gotta examine my pinans now!

 

[RevIV]

That's a really good question...I know there are some in the kata's for sure, like 26 is in kata 3 and kata 6...kata 6 also has 19 and 4 in it. I gotta examine my pinans now!

good luck

 

[DavidCC]

combo three is right there at the beginning of 5 pinan

marlon

That is the next form I will learn

That's a really good question...I know there are some in the kata's for sure, like 26 is in kata 3 and kata 6...kata 6 also has 19 and 4 in it. I gotta examine my pinans now!

that is the opposite of what I asked

 

[shaolin ninja 4]

Hey David,
Do you guys teach kata 6?
Your head master left before black so I was just curious not bashing.

 

[Gufbal1982]

That is the next form I will learn



that is the opposite of what I asked

I realize that...if you read what I completely said was I have to examine my pinans next.

 

[Matt]

How many of the combos use lessons/movements/principles from the Pinan series?

Not very many contain identical movements. The combos were devised (at least the pre-black belt ones) for the most part before the pinans were added into the system. The combos that were created after the pinans were introduced tend to be fancier (for lack of a better word) than the movement style consistent within the pinans.

The pinans were imported to provide structure to fundamental movements moreso than to contain techniques. Essentially some of the principles were used, but at a really granular level relating to quality of movement, power generation and so on.

Matt

 

[DavidCC]

Hey David,
Do you guys teach kata 6?
Your head master left before black so I was just curious not bashing.

No, we use the Goju kata after pinan 5 & kata 5: we go to Seisan, suparunpei, etc.

 

[DavidCC]

Not very many contain identical movements. The combos were devised (at least the pre-black belt ones) for the most part before the pinans were added into the system. The combos that were created after the pinans were introduced tend to be fancier (for lack of a better word) than the movement style consistent within the pinans.

The pinans were imported to provide structure to fundamental movements moreso than to contain techniques. Essentially some of the principles were used, but at a really granular level relating to quality of movement, power generation and so on.

Matt

That's kindof what I thought... I have mixed feelings on these: karate bolted-on to the kempo system, or relevant to the system as a whole...

 

[Matt]

That's kindof what I thought... I have mixed feelings on these: karate bolted-on to the kempo system, or relevant to the system as a whole...

I have mixed feelings on them as well. However, they are a recurring theme in Kempo history. The original Kempo, was Karate Kempo. They were essentially one and the same (See Motobu's book, Kenpo Gaisetsu or Mutsu's Karate Kenpo). Mitose's Kempo? Contained only naihanchi. John Chow-Hoon's apparently contained forms like taikyoku shodan with variations. Chow/Chun Goshinjutsu Chinese Kempo also contains pinan type forms. Kajukenbo? Naihanchi again, modified. They come in and out. I find that the pinans and especially other karate forms have taught me important concepts, but it was more like cross-training. I could then find them or apply them in the kempo forms I had. Will my students not have to retrace my steps? Perhaps eventually.

Matt

 

[RevIV]

I have mixed feelings on them as well. However, they are a recurring theme in Kempo history. The original Kempo, was Karate Kempo. They were essentially one and the same (See Motobu's book, Kenpo Gaisetsu or Mutsu's Karate Kenpo). Mitose's Kempo? Contained only naihanchi. John Chow-Hoon's apparently contained forms like taikyoku shodan with variations. Chow/Chun Goshinjutsu Chinese Kempo also contains pinan type forms. Kajukenbo? Naihanchi again, modified. They come in and out. I find that the pinans and especially other karate forms have taught me important concepts, but it was more like cross-training. I could then find them or apply them in the kempo forms I had. Will my students not have to retrace my steps? Perhaps eventually.

Matt

I like the last sentence in this paragraph, well the last 2 i guess. So, when will they be dropped.?
Jesse

 

[14 Kempo]

I have mixed feelings on them as well. However, they are a recurring theme in Kempo history. The original Kempo, was Karate Kempo. They were essentially one and the same (See Motobu's book, Kenpo Gaisetsu or Mutsu's Karate Kenpo). Mitose's Kempo? Contained only naihanchi. John Chow-Hoon's apparently contained forms like taikyoku shodan with variations. Chow/Chun Goshinjutsu Chinese Kempo also contains pinan type forms. Kajukenbo? Naihanchi again, modified. They come in and out. I find that the pinans and especially other karate forms have taught me important concepts, but it was more like cross-training. I could then find them or apply them in the kempo forms I had. Will my students not have to retrace my steps? Perhaps eventually.

Matt

Maybe it's just my studio, but where I train in SKK the pinans are a bit softer.

Pinan #1 [Tiger], very karate-like, straight forward, powerful, always pressing.
Pinan #2 [Dragon], still very karate-like, added in the rising and falling into the blocks and strikes.
Pinan #3 [Crane], becomes softer and more fluid in its movements. Striking from a distance.
Pinan #4 [Leopard], very fluid, striking from a distance, minimized movements.
Pinan #5 [Snake], low stances, drawing the opponent into very fast, accurate strikes.

Yes, I have seen the Shotokan Heian series. The movements are very similar, but in my SKK style they are much softer and more fluid.

 

[Matt]

I like the last sentence in this paragraph, well the last 2 i guess. So, when will they be dropped.?
Jesse

When it's my roof?:rules:

Kidding!:angel:

But seriously, I can see a day when I don't teach them, but then a lot of changes will come with that day. You'll know it when you see it.

Matt

 

[Gufbal1982]

You know, I find it interesting how on other threads when it's off topic people get moderated on, but on this thread no one is on topic and it doesn't happen. Why is that?

 

[Lisa]

You know, I find it interesting how on other threads when it's off topic people get moderated on, but on this thread no one is on topic and it doesn't happen. Why is that?

Well, with thousands of posts per day, it is hard for the moderating staff to keep up with all the threads. We rely heavily on our membership to report threads that are turning nasty, are in the wrong forum and are going off topic. I wasn't aware that this was happening with this thread until someone reported your post.

So, if you feel that is happening please feel free to report the post/thread and bring it to our attention. You can do so by clicking on the little red and white triangle with the "!" located in it. Simply post the reason you think the thread is going awry and we will be happy to look into it for you.

I hope I sufficiently answered your question, and on that note:

ATTENTION ALL MEMBERS:

Please return to the original topic of this thread.

Lisa Deneka
MartialTalk Super Moderator

 

[Gufbal1982]

Can we try the thread topic again? Combination 3:

I like the beginning footwork of 3. It's very reminescent of boxing...stepping out to the angle and doing a body blow. Anyone have any thoughts?

 

[Joe Shuras]

Jesse wrote: "15 - seems more Kung-fu to me
13 - all Villari
11 - Def. Kempo. the ending when you grab the leg and flip them over for the hip dislocation was done by the Late David German all the time.

Hi Jesse, hope all is well with you and yours. #15 is one of the original KGS combs of SGM. Pesare's. You will see it demonstated (I believe by George Pesare himself in his 60's DVD but I'd have to check, I know it's on there though). I saw a Kajukenbo version back in the 80's, same begining but instead of re-directing to the groin, you circle your right hand around the attacker's right wrist bringing your right hand behind you to your right kidney as your left coils around the neck into a ridge hand to the throat, bending him back and following with a right knee to his kidney area. By the way, I also seen this armlock/ridge hand to throat in one of my Wah Lum Kung Fu forms ("Straight Form") and just the armlock is also in Shou Tung Kwok. EPAK has a knife defense that is also similiar. I strongly suggest anyone truly interested in the history of Karazenpo and Shaolin Kempo Karate should really get DVD from SGM. Pesare. It's really great stuff.

#13 is actually not GM. Villari at all. I went over the 21 combinations of SGM. Pesare comparing them with the SKK ones I got in the 70's with GM. Marc Ayotte of George Pesare's Kempo/Kenpo Karate Institute a while ago and #13 was another original. It was done almost exactly the way I learned it from Mr. Villari, Mr. Fritz and Mr. Seavey back then except the application of dropping the loop around the neck was done slightly different. Other than that minor variation, it was the same.

#11 I'm a little fuzzy on as an original. I remember going over it with Marc but can't recall if it's an original. I'd have to check but I know it was handed down from Prof. Cerio to Gm. Villari. As a matter of fact, the takedown is one of Cerio's favorites and he included it in Circle of the Tiger. Circle of the Tiger, as we know, was inspired by KGS/SKK #1 kata (now called #1 pinan at Mr. Pesare's school) and Prof. Cerio replaced the ankle throw in it with the takedown from #11 when he reworked the form.

Jesse, I believe you mentioned the scissor kick as Tae Kwon Do. In the original #3 kata of George Pesare/Sonny Gascon it was actually a Kajukenbo switch kick which more than likely came from the Korean arts. In the #3 kata I learned from Mr. V's system, we would do a circular sweep then squat down feet together (ducking) facing 12 o'clock and jump up with the scissor kick (jump front ball w/ a back kick to an opponent behind you). There was way more juice on the front kick then the back kick though. Once while looking through a Tae Kwon Do book, I saw this exact technique (minus the opponet to the rear) as a defense against a Bo or long weapon. The attacker swings at the head, the defender drops down, the attacker then cross swings downward at the defender and the defender jumps over the bo and executes the jump from kick into the attacker. This is a little too 'theatrical' for me to teach as reality based self defense, lol, so I wouldn't but it's a good exercise in agility, timing and leg strength and looks nice in tournament competition.

I have also seen it reported widely on the forums that Fred Villari created all the combinations after 26. I have a problem with that one and here's why. Years ago, while studying under Prof. Cerio, I asked him. He told me as far as the numerical combinations went, he taught Fred V. around 35. Looking at these combinations myself I can believe this, I also recognize #39 very similar to one of Prof. Cerio's techniques in NCK (Spinning Sword) but using a knife hand instead of a backfist, etc., (concept was the same though.), so Mr. Cerio is in the ballpark on his recollection of this. Back in the 70's going into the next decade, at Mr. Villari's Black Belt workouts, he usually covered up to #39. I also noticed F.V. #40 is similiar to EPAK's Leaping Crane.

KenpoJoe Rebelo once asked Ed Parker if he knew Fred Villari. He stated he never met the man. Again, I take issue with this. Perhaps, it's just because it was so long ago and Mr. Villari was not a big name to remember back in the later 60's. Fred V. started with Nick Cerio in 1967. Mr. Cerio told me he used to take Villari with him to the Ed Parker workouts when Cerio was the east coast director of the IKKA. Nick also told this to Craig Seavey and that Prof. Larry Garron of Framingham, Massachusetts also attended and confirmed this. I'm sure Mr. Villari picked up things from these workouts.

Also, Gm. Villari did tell me back in the 70's, it was 1978, that he had the 108 combinations back then and some 50 plus forms, I think 54(?) at this time, however, he decided to 'streamline' the system, to prevent overkill of curriculum, to 50 combinations and 21 forms. The forms were 1-5 pinan, Statue of the Crane, 1-6 Kata, Honsuki (Hansuki), Shou Tung Kwok (original spelling), Nenglis North & South, Swift Tigers, Invincible Wall, Five Dragons Facing the Four Winds, one basic Bo form and one basic Japanese sword form. We also had the 8 point, 10 point and Plum Tree Blocking systems. Later, after I left, he went back to the expanded curriculum as many other also did. "Joe"

 

[14 Kempo]

Very nice to see this post ... thanks Mr. Shuras