Where are the TRUE masters

[silatman]

I was reading the latest Blitz magazine and in it was an article about the topic of masters.
Put simply the fact that in this moment of time there are more students of all martial arts training than at any other moment of time and yet there are very few if any True masters being produced.
Back in the day there was people like Bruce Lee, Kano, Musashi, Mas Omara just to name a few, so why with more people on the ground are we not getting any new TRUE ones?
Your thoughts...

 

[terryl965]

Silatman it is simple the people doing it today will not put the actual time and sweat to become great. They are more intent in finding people to cross rank them and at this moment in time most people believe it stupid to devote ones life to only one Art, the have the delusion that no one Art is complete.
Terry

 

[Martial Tucker]

Silatman it is simple the people doing it today will not put the actual time and sweat to become great. They are more intent in finding people to cross rank them and at this moment in time most people believe it stupid to devote ones life to only one Art, the have the delusion that no one Art is complete.
Terry

I agree with Terry, but to take it a step further, I think the explosive growth in MMA has taken a lot of attention away from the more traditional "do"
arts, where concepts like humility, perfecting basic skills, respect, history/tradition, and kata/poomse/bunkai became more a way of life than an art to those who become deeply involved.

Today, because of our society's tendency for instant gratification and our love of money, publicity, and bragging rights, the focus is on MMA.
Don't get me wrong, I think there is definitely a place for MMA. You could easily make the argument that Bruce Lee was one of the first MMA pioneers.

But to me, and I think to you Silatman (and Terry), martial arts is MUCH more than who owns the biggest can of whoopass. For now though, the
whoopass is getting most of the attention because it's showy. People gravitate towards it similar to how a child will always pick a cheap toy that's flashy and colorful over a more expensive toy that is plain looking.

Ask someone on the street who today's martial arts "masters" are, and they are likely to say: Couture, Liddell, Hughes, Gracie, et. al.

I'm sure there are people out there in the traditional arts with abilities
on a par with these men, but they are more interested in training in obscurity for the sake of training, and self-betterment.

I guess I'm really saying it depends on how you define "master". Personally,
I'll take the Kano's and the Itosu's, but that's just me.....

 

[Don Roley]

More is not better.

When you make an art more accessable to the masses, you dilute the teachings.

And we live in far less dangerous times than many masters. The guy who taught the current head of my art is said to have fought in China and lost his hearing in one eye due to a little duel. Nowdays people use the martial arts for exercise like Tae Bo and sometimes as child care. The old guys did not do martial arts for anything other than one reason- to hurt others.

 

[NOZR1]

The guy who taught the current head of my art is said to have fought in China and lost his hearing in one eye due to a little duel.

Huh? :lol:

 

[Dark]

Back in the day there was people like Bruce Lee, Kano, Musashi, Mas Omara just to name a few, so why with more people on the ground are we not getting any new TRUE ones?
Your thoughts...

I once had someone give me this quote about true mastery, but I can't remember it exactly. Was something like, "A true master has vision, and walks his path alone. All others simply follow where the leaders have dared to tread." In Okinawa there was a test for mastery, to begin your own style, those who did and could protect in challenges were considered true masters those who couldn't were forgotten.

I don't think it's a matter of creating something new, as it a matter of not standing in anyone's shadow. The willing ness to excel, not just maintain...

 

[crushing]

The guy who taught the current head of my art is said to have fought in China and lost his hearing in one eye due to a little duel.

I definately know what that is like. I, myself, am deaf in one eye and can't hear out of the other.

 

[Phadrus00]

Put simply the fact that in this moment of time there are more students of all martial arts training than at any other moment of time and yet there are very few if any True masters being produced.
Back in the day there was people like Bruce Lee, Kano, Musashi, Mas Omara just to name a few, so why with more people on the ground are we not getting any new TRUE ones?
Your thoughts...

Silatman,

I think you need to take into account the "Lens of History" and how it has focussed our attention on these Masters in our past. At the time Bruce Lee, Kano, Mushashi were likely NOT commonly known, and they were "duking it out" with other practicioners for attention and recognition. Over time their work has gained followers and become more popular and History has favored their contribution with attention. I believe the True Masters are here, they are among us, working hard to promote their arts and spread their understanding and in time we will come to look back on them and recognize thier contribution within an historical context.

I have had the pleasure of training with several practicioners that I consider to be Masters of their Art and it is a near Religious experience. I hope that History illuminates their contributions because they certainly have inspired and influenced my appreciation and goals in the Arts.

Rob

 

[monkey]

Silatamn I said this to one of my old ways Kempo brothers.

we are a dieing bread.We use to train hard-no pads-conditon our hands & feet.
Now if you spar in class & by chance some one got hurt--law suites--time missed training--losing student.


We are a Deing Bread! We are the inovated from the inovators.
We had hope & now its sports & classical type ways but,the combat
has been striped in most(for the sake of sport or ranks)

 

[Kreth]

we are a dieing bread.

We?! Please tell me you don't consider yourself a "master."

 

[matt.m]

You know I don't think it comes down to style creation. It comes down to leadership more than anything. Plus the fact that there are so many McDojo's around doing their thing as a black belt factory doesn't help either.

I am 2.5 to 3.0 yrs from even thinking about dan testing. I have a friend who goes to a McDojo, I told him that he would be a 3rd dan before I got to test for dan.

Oh well, I blame the teacher not the student for that kind of black belt factory mentality. If the instructor didn't act that way and promote people when they didn't deserve it then students would not be testing just because.

 

[Xue Sheng]

More is not better.

The guy who taught the current head of my art is said to have fought in China and lost his hearing in one eye due to a little duel.

I definately know what that is like. I, myself, am deaf in one eye and can't hear out of the other.

I don't know why but the lyric from an Ozzy Osborne song just popped into my head.

"Swallowing colors of the sound I hear"

But to go back to topic.

There are masters around, as stated we know of Bruce Lee and others now but who knew hem when they first started out. And many who are true masters do not broadcast it. And if you are talking masters that are Chinese, they never broad cast it, if they are the real deal.

 

[Andrew Green]

Well, nowadays people aren't "allowed" to create styles, and thats what all those guys did

I'd also say there are plenty of masters, they just don't call themselves that.

 

[Adept]

I'm going to actually take the opposite opinion here. While there is the ever-present McDojo element, I believe that 'elite' level of mastery that indicates one is a master, as demonstrated by the people outlined in the opening post as well as others, has been opened up to a much larger group of people who have embraced it with open arms.

Instead of there being half a dozen 'true masters', we now have hundreds, if not thousands of people across the globe who have managed to reach similar levels of skill and dedication. The bar has been raised, so simply being as good as the 'true masters' were is no longer enough to significantly distinguish oneself from the crowd.

 

[Ceicei]

I'm going to actually take the opposite opinion here. While there is the ever-present McDojo element, I believe that 'elite' level of mastery that indicates one is a master, as demonstrated by the people outlined in the opening post as well as others, has been opened up to a much larger group of people who have embraced it with open arms.

Instead of there being half a dozen 'true masters', we now have hundreds, if not thousands of people across the globe who have managed to reach similar levels of skill and dedication. The bar has been raised, so simply being as good as the 'true masters' were is no longer enough to significantly distinguish oneself from the crowd.

True masters will not "advertise" themselves as such. They are there and they exist out there. With a bit of effort, these masters can be found.

- Ceicei

 

[Adept]

True masters will not "advertise" themselves as such. They are there and they exist out there. With a bit of effort, these masters can be found.

- Ceicei

I guess it depends on your definition. I would certainly class Muhammad Ali as a master, and he told everyone who would listen that he was 'the greatest!'.

 

[Dark]

I'm going to actually take the opposite opinion here. While there is the ever-present McDojo element, I believe that 'elite' level of mastery that indicates one is a master, as demonstrated by the people outlined in the opening post as well as others, has been opened up to a much larger group of people who have embraced it with open arms.

Instead of there being half a dozen 'true masters', we now have hundreds, if not thousands of people across the globe who have managed to reach similar levels of skill and dedication. The bar has been raised, so simply being as good as the 'true masters' were is no longer enough to significantly distinguish oneself from the crowd.

I have to disagree, there is by my definition two requirements of true mastery. One is self-mastery, and all that intels and the other is knowledge. You get the knowledge from your martial arts and you get your self-mastery from experience.

I might have the wrong impression and many will say I do, but I image a great many zen koans and taoist saying where simply a bunch off old guys messing with the kids who kept bothering them with stupid questions.
I imagine these three old guys just setting under a tree relaxing and some kid wanting all the answers handed to him, running up and saying "What is the secret of your fighting style?"
And this grizzled old cogger giving a stupid answer like "If a tree falls in the woods and no one os there to hear does it make a sound?"
So the young student runs off trying to figure it all out to learn the masters secret and the reality is the student will never know because he will never experience it. Much like the old master's fighting secret he will never know because he can never walk in that man's shoes. Thus the secret is shut and expierence life for itself.

What made the masters was experience, and nothing more. A rank and a belt don't add up to real life experience...

 

[Adept]

I have to disagree, there is by my definition two requirements of true mastery. One is self-mastery, and all that intels and the other is knowledge. You get the knowledge from your martial arts and you get your self-mastery from experience.

I'm unsure exactly what it is with my post that you disagree with.

What made the masters was experience, and nothing more. A rank and a belt don't add up to real life experience...

Well, obviously a person in their current state is a pre-determined result of both their environment and their genetics. In other words, they wouldn't be who they were, if they had had different experiences. In that way, you are right.

But if you mean that fighting experience makes one a martial arts master, then I must disagree. It also takes the natural talent, and raw ambition and dedication to be the strongest, fittest, and most skilled fighter you can be. Without a healthy helping of all three, you will only ever be an also-ran.

 

[Dark]

I'm unsure exactly what it is with my post that you disagree with.

"Instead of there being half a dozen 'true masters', we now have hundreds, if not thousands of people across the globe who have managed to reach similar levels of skill and dedication. The bar has been raised, so simply being as good as the 'true masters' were is no longer enough to significantly distinguish oneself from the crowd."

I disagree with this I find less qualified instructors, and more watered down MAs then years only 10 ago. True masters are not going to be found in this unless you look in some very out of the way places. The older more disoplined way has been pushed aside for easier and more politically correct methods.

Well, obviously a person in their current state is a pre-determined result of both their environment and their genetics. In other words, they wouldn't be who they were, if they had had different experiences. In that way, you are right.

But if you mean that fighting experience makes one a martial arts master, then I must disagree. It also takes the natural talent, and raw ambition and dedication to be the strongest, fittest, and most skilled fighter you can be. Without a healthy helping of all three, you will only ever be an also-ran.

The fittest and strongest have nothing to do with it, Ali beat men who were younger, stronger and faster then him in his latter days. There is an old saying I got from this country friend of mine, "The toughest dog isn't leading the pack he is sleeping on the porch."

The idea is that it takes real skill and real knowledge that comes from real experience. The most skilled fighter in the dojo or ring isn't squatt on the street unless he or she has experience there. I've beaten guys who should have taken my head off just because I knew what they didn't. What makes a real master is control and disopline. There is a trial by fire where you are released from the dojo and handed to the world, that experience with the world is your "trial by fire" so to speak...

Mastery of a style is one thing but how you apply that paper mastery to life is so much more...

 

[Sam]

we are a dieing bread.

First of all, if bread can die, someone needs to let me know. I haven't eaten meat for two years and bread has been a staple of my diet. Are you telling me I was not truly vegetarian these past two years? I would also appreciate any links to the mating rituals and lifecycles of bread. Clearly I am misinformed. A master such as yourself should be able to direct a lowly student such as myself to the proper resources.

Now if you spar in class & by chance some one got hurt--law suites--time missed training--losing student.

Only been training about two years, but I have NEVER heard of a school where you do not sign a contract saying you will not hold the school responsible for any injuries you may recieve.