When Would You Fight Back?

[Bill Mattocks]

Points taken Bill. Let me ask you this. If you were in that situation, you're telling me that you wouldn't defend your wife is she was in the situation I described?

No, I'm not saying that. But I would keep in mind that I could not help her in any way if I was myself dead. I would do everything I could to save her, even at the cost of my own life. I would certainly hope that my sacrifice would in fact save her, or at least have a good chance of doing that.

 

[Zoran]

I know there are going to be endless situations, all different possibilities, but I'm sure, for the sake of discussion, we can come up with some examples.

What would be cases in which you would not fight back?

Since you said fight back, it is assumed the fight is in progress so I would never not fight back. Of course what would I fight for, survival, escape, control, protection of another? All depends on the situation.

 

[MA-Caver]

Don't know if you have any details of the 780 killed but it would be interesting to know the break up of how many complied with the assailants' demands and how many resisted.

That very important statistic will be very difficult to gather since most robberies/muggings that end up in death of the victim by and large can occur without any witnesses. So while it may be easily determined that a person was killed for their money (missing wallet, jewelry, etc), unless the perp gets caught and goes into detail (TRUTHFULLY) of what happened we may never know exactly how it went down, thus not able to effectively compile an accurate statistic on resisting and compliance.

Some folks may imagine that resisting resulted in death more often than compliance but I suspect it's the other way around. Like I said earlier; power and control is a strong stimulant and emboldens an otherwise timid robber (yes, they exist... someone calls their bluff and they back-down and/or runaway), at which point things escalates to a point of no return.

 

[WC_lun]

There is no specific occurance that triggers my fight response. For me the time to fight is when other options' likely result is going to be less safe than resisting. If I feel my bet to make it home in one piece is to capitulate to whatever, then that is what I'll do. The second fighting becomes my best bet, then that is what I'll choose.

What I won't do is fight over my ego. If another guy is an idiot towards me, that doesn't mean I have to turn into an idiot too. For me fighting is very dangerous, on many levels. I'm not going to engage in it unless I think that is the way that is safer.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

That very important statistic will be very difficult to gather since most robberies/muggings that end up in death of the victim by and large can occur without any witnesses. So while it may be easily determined that a person was killed for their money (missing wallet, jewelry, etc), unless the perp gets caught and goes into detail (TRUTHFULLY) of what happened we may never know exactly how it went down, thus not able to effectively compile an accurate statistic on resisting and compliance.

Agreed.

Some folks may imagine that resisting resulted in death more often than compliance but I suspect it's the other way around. Like I said earlier; power and control is a strong stimulant and emboldens an otherwise timid robber (yes, they exist... someone calls their bluff and they back-down and/or runaway), at which point things escalates to a point of no return.

That's still a guess, though. Not that I think you're wrong; I just don't know.

And in any case, we're still taking about 780 people out of 300 million plus in the USA. Doesn't mean it can't happen, just means the odds are amazingly low.

 

[Buka]

We fight back every day. We fight taxes, the price of gas, stress, well meaning in-laws, depression, weather, traffic, that nagging ache you got last night from getting your sidekick jammed, not enough sleep, your sore feet, that damn knee, your vacation budget, your fricken muffler, the vet bill - like some Bozo trying to jack you up is going to make a difference.

Bring it, sucker. But you better pack a lunch, cuz it's going to take you all day.

 

[MJS]

No, I'm not saying that. But I would keep in mind that I could not help her in any way if I was myself dead. I would do everything I could to save her, even at the cost of my own life. I would certainly hope that my sacrifice would in fact save her, or at least have a good chance of doing that.

So, basically, we're on the same page.

 

[MJS]

Since you said fight back, it is assumed the fight is in progress so I would never not fight back. Of course what would I fight for, survival, escape, control, protection of another? All depends on the situation.

Yes, the confrontation is already in progress. I was asking at what point everyone would begin their physical defense.

 

[WingChunIan]

There's only one consequence of a fight that you don't need to live with and that's death. I teach my students what I call the trigger point response, they are taught to diffuse a situation in any conceivable manner until their trigger is hit, the trigger is normally a physical act / contact that infers imminent danger to themselves or a loved one. Once the trigger is hit they are taught to go for it 100% nothing held back, win or die trying. The trigger point is developed over a prolonged period of training, using mental rehearsal and consequence scenarios and is unique to each individual. Training in the trigger point allows for reaction rather than situational paralysis as well as helping to live with the consequences of any action.
I agree wholeheartedly with the posts above who adopt the airline seatbelt approach of protect yourself first as you have to be alive to help your loved ones, however what is the point in being alive in order to protect your loved ones if you never actually do protect them. I emphathise massively with the man and his wife described in the above posts, I am fortunate that my wife also trains with me and we have discussed scenarios like this plenty of times. I would rather die than her get raped, she would rather be raped than see me die, so only two win win scenarios exist - we fight and live and she doesn't get raped or we fight and die. If we fight, lose and the worst still happens then however badly injured we are we will be better placed psychologically to live with the aftermath. Not all of our after dinner conversations are this morose though

 

[Bill Mattocks]

So, basically, we're on the same page.

More or less. I think about these things, though. In the example that was given of the man's wife who was raped; their marriage may not have lasted, but she lived. Are we saying that it would have been better if he had died and she been raped and possibly killed anyway? Some things don't have clear answers.

If we have some mental notion of the brave man gallantly sacrificing himself for his beloved wife, and through his sacrifice, the rape is averted, I get that; I suppose it's a common ideal. But I wonder if life works like that very often.

The whole scenario moves back and forth from the practical and pragmatic (self-defense and value judgments) to moral (one must protect one's family from both death and rape) to historical (honor must be defended), to philosophical (what is worse, death or rape?). When so many lines are crossed, it's difficult to arrive at a sound conclusion that would apply in most or all similar situations.

 

[K-man]

That very important statistic will be very difficult to gather since most robberies/muggings that end up in death of the victim by and large can occur without any witnesses. So while it may be easily determined that a person was killed for their money (missing wallet, jewelry, etc), unless the perp gets caught and goes into detail (TRUTHFULLY) of what happened we may never know exactly how it went down, thus not able to effectively compile an accurate statistic on resisting and compliance.

Some folks may imagine that resisting resulted in death more often than compliance but I suspect it's the other way around. Like I said earlier; power and control is a strong stimulant and emboldens an otherwise timid robber (yes, they exist... someone calls their bluff and they back-down and/or runaway), at which point things escalates to a point of no return.

My point in asking was purely that the chances of being killed in a mugging are pretty small. Of those who were killed, some may have resisted and the rest complied with the assailant's demands. The number killed may have been even less if they hadn't resisted.

Then again, we don't know of the ones who resisted and lived, would some of them been killed if they had not resisted? Either way, we are talking hypotheticals.

 

[Grasshopper22]

If there were more than 2 of them (especially if they had weapons).

 

[K831]

I recognize that if I fight back things are set into motion that can not be reversed. As such, when I fight is started, someone may be seriously, permanently injured or dead.

I have to live with that.

Part of the choice whether to fight back or not is weighed against whether or not I can live with the worst possible result. If the situation warrants seriously injuring another or taking their life, then I fight back.

I used to fight over insults etc... because at the time, I thought in terms of a fist fight that I either won or lost. Getting older and realizing that fighting over something silly can get out of hand and become far more dangerous than a fist fight over insults.

I can sleep tidy at night after taking the life of another if I know I was truly defending my safety/life or the that of another innocent.

I cannot sleep tidy if I had to defend myself because a situation I instigated got out of control.

 

[Zenjael]

A fight is something I consider life or death. It is what we train toward being prepared for... and it something we should avoid at all costs.

I like to think my philosophy simple; I fight when apparent that the fight is unavoidable. Until then I will not.

I think not taking a life, or risking my own, is worth the cost of public humiliation or anything which might follow in avoiding the confrontation. Loss of face is not worth loss of life, and I think many people my age forget that. I know I have.

I think men are people who fight. I think people, martial artists, are those who know they can, and will triumph, but know when to. I've found the ignorant seek violence, while those most incredible in their degree of experience in combat, and the ways of violence, seek the most to avoid it.

I know it's long winded... but there is a story I really hold close to heart;

A samurai from a noble family had trained all his life to become the echelon of ability for his clan, against their rival. One day, while traveling, he finally crossed paths with another from the other clan. Both knew the other, and though far apart, moved into a ready stance, their hands on their hilts. Both stared at each other for a moment, and as if one, removed their hands from their swords, and bowed. They strode past each other, and both lived.

I like to think everyone here would survive in a confrontation. I believe every martial artist knows when to raise their fist, and when to keep it at their side. I've taken a punch to avoid something much worse. I'd like to think us all able, as martial artists, to do the same. Our art is one geared toward protecting ourself, and harming others. I truly think we should never forget that we have a terrible responsibility behind that.

It's why, though I find the laws of my state too stringent... yet at the same time agree with them. I've trained my whole life practically to say this- when the moment comes I will defend myself, and go to jail for it. Jail is better than death, if there really is no alternative.

Sorry to ramble, peace to all.

 

[K-man]

A fight is something I consider life or death. It is what we train toward being prepared for... and it something we should avoid at all costs.

I like to think my philosophy simple; I fight when apparent that the fight is unavoidable. Until then I will not.

Have you read your previous posts? :sadsong:

I think today I learned a fairly good lesson about why one should be particularly cautious when sparring with people who are intoxicated. This would not be the first time (I'm a bit of a southern boy in some senses, and at our parties these sort of things always happen). As of right now I am sporting probably the fatest lip I've had in half a decade- but considering the person intoxicated received no injury, and the non-intoxicated a mild abrasion to the mouth, I think this among the better results of any boxing while intoxicants are involved.

Just to mention, we have read your Samuri story at least once before!

 

[chinto]

I will not fight back if I feel I have a means of escape from the immediate threat. That means I won't fight if I feel I can run away, comply with demands, or otherwise defuse the situation without violence.

I have no aversion to violence, I'm not against it on philosophical or any other grounds; I just believe that 'self-defense' means just that; defense of self. Violence means additional risk. I'll take that risk when my common sense tells me it is less risk that to not fight back.

I will not fight to support my ego, to prove a point, or on 'general principles'. My self-defense philosophy is simple; life means more than ego, emotions, or even honor. I will do whatever I believe necessary to survive, including giving up my wallet, watch, cell phone, or whatever. When I do not believe that I can avoid being assaulted, injured, or killed, I will engage in violence with all my ability and strength and I will not stop until I feel the threat is ended.

I agree, be nice, be kind, avoid any kind of fight till you have no choice! but once its on, its for ALL the MARBLES!! IF YOU FIGHT YOU MAY DIE!!! so go for broke!! its not a sparring match at the dojo, to loose may be to die.

 

[WC_lun]

Part of good self defense and being a mature adult is having the awareness not to put yourself in a situation where you might have to fight. Sure, stuff happens and in that case it is nice to be able to actually fight. Putting yourself in a place where stuff happens a lot is not the smartest thing a person can do.

Those people that don't brag about fighitng are that way because they know that real violence is brutal, ugly, vicious, and quick. It isn't some sparring match or game that is glorified later when trying to impress people. People who don't understand tend to talk it up a storm. People who do understand, know talking about it doesn't change what it is or make others understand.

 

[chinto]

Part of good self defense and being a mature adult is having the awareness not to put yourself in a situation where you might have to fight. Sure, stuff happens and in that case it is nice to be able to actually fight. Putting yourself in a place where stuff happens a lot is not the smartest thing a person can do.

Those people that don't brag about fighitng are that way because they know that real violence is brutal, ugly, vicious, and quick. It isn't some sparring match or game that is glorified later when trying to impress people. People who don't understand tend to talk it up a storm. People who do understand, know talking about it doesn't change what it is or make others understand.

yes, that is why I say " if you fight you may die! best fight to be in.... none, best to not be there for the fight.

 

[Supra Vijai]

There have been a few replies already and some very good points raised but just adding my 2 cents...

Recently (maybe 2 months ago), I was out with some friends for dinner. It was a mixed group made up of students I train with and non-MA'ists and the conversation was light and fluffy. After dinner we decided to head over to a bar across the road, sit in their outdoor area as it was a nice night and keep talking over a drink and everything was going well until we had a lady walk in asking if she was interrupting anything or if she could have a smoke there. At this point since there was no apparent threat of any sort and she seemed genuinely nice enough we told her to go right ahead and she wasn't bothering us at all. Pretty soon after this though it became apparent she was on *something* and was trying to provoke some response from us. Hindsight tells me we should have picked up on the changing mood and left but at the time, everyone was still having a good time talking so I let it go. Next thing I knew, the lady had covered the distance from one end of the outdoor area and was getting quite handsy with my girlfriend at the time. Suddenly she leaned in to kiss my girlfriend (who'd frozen from shock at this point) and without thinking about it, my hand came up between their faces as a barrier while I stood up and moved her back telling her the party just got private and we'd like her to leave. This caused her to get aggressive and start taking swings at me. As mentioned in an earlier post, societal norms and expectations took over and I couldn't hit her even if I'd tried - the mental barrier was too great, so I just jammed her swings and moved her back while one of my friends went to get security. From experience, at this stage at least I'd say that's one time I WOULDN'T fight back. Another point of consideration would be "would my friends be ok/able to get home safe if something happened to me?" (that sounds egotistical but I was designated driver and we were a fair ways from home).

Now if the same thing had happened and it was a male assailant, my response in all honesty would probably have been very different such that I don't know if I would have even tried the verbal de-escalation or if I would have responded physically from the outset. Social norms aside, if there is a direct threat to friends or family I'd say that in the heat of the moment, the fight response would definitely win over logic.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I know there are going to be endless situations, all different possibilities, but I'm sure, for the sake of discussion, we can come up with some examples.

What would be cases in which you would not fight back?

When people that do something stupid and then come running for help and expecting me to take their lumps. I let them take their lumps, then I kindly ask the other person to stop.

When I can run or talk my way out of it.