Techniques- how many would you need?

[still learning]

Hello, There are endless technques one can use....and flow it?

Is there any you feel that does not make sense or will work for you?

This is techniques use in a REAL STREET FIGHTS...NOT sparring classes.....is there some you question of it's effectiveness on the streets?

That was taught in class?

We practice one step , one attacker throws a punch and we counter with numerous techniques that flows (hit them 4-10 times)...but the attacter is just standing there? ...would this happen in real life?

or we take them down and hit them numerous times while they are lying there?... will this happen in real life?

Most of us would not stand there after one block to our punch and not move away (in or out)...and as for takedowns...most of us would try to escape and get back up...and NOT take the numerous hits or get ourselves trap in an armbar?

This is a part of our Kempo training.....doesn't make sense to me...but then again we could stun the attacker and get those mulitple techniques in? never saw anything in the MMA world of fighting? or any tournaments of any kind? that resembles this training? (maybe against UNtrain fighters)?

Have you got stuffs you have questions about in your training?

Aloha ( there will always be better ways of learning) to read, write, and ....)

PS: One day toilets will be waterless and so will our showers....toilet papers? ...maybe forever! pass the towel please..i mean paper!

 

[terryl965]

S_L I would use whatever tech. that would work at that time. I do not throw anything away. Since I have only been in a few altocation maybe my views are the wrong ones. You see until you actual use anything and at the right time with the right opponet we will never know for sure.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Having been in a few street altercations over the years i tend to agree with Terry on this. Until it hit the fan I never knew what I would do or not do and what would happen ( be that take down , trip, knock out, etc.).
About the only thing I have not used in the street was a kick to the head of someone standing up, but then I am not that tall either.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Many things I have thought were useless earlier in training did I see later what the point was. Here are some extreme examples 1. One karate kata I thought would never work until the teacher explained to his students the hidden meaning of why they bend downward and back which is to pick up an object to throw at their opponent. Another case involved me rolling with a grappler and as he tried to grab my arm for an armbar I used a silk reeling exercise from Tai chi to escape it. The point is things are not always what they seem and there is a reason for things even if they are not clear at that time in training. On the street in my memory of fights techniques were basically thrown out but body movement timing distancing and adapting to the fighting circumstances was how I fought.
But that is my experience your's might vary.

 

[exile]

S_L.... as they used to say on 'Allo! 'Allo!: leesten very carefully, I shall say zees only once...

We practice one step , one attacker throws a punch and we counter with numerous techniques that flows (hit them 4-10 times)...but the attacter is just standing there? ...would this happen in real life?

or we take them down and hit them numerous times while they are lying there?... will this happen in real life?

Most of us would not stand there after one block to our punch and not move away (in or out)...and as for takedowns...most of us would try to escape and get back up...and NOT take the numerous hits or get ourselves trap in an armbar?

SL, the number one rule, the essential rule, the rule that the recent wave of kata/bunkai/SD wizards like Iain Abernethy, Lawrence Kane and Kris Wilder, and many others have been telling us is... Nothing is of practical defensive value which requires a compliant opponent.

The techs they advocate and demonstrate involve forced moves. There is no choice on the attacker's part when the defender responds in this way, assuming that the attacker is not a supernatural being of some sort.

An example (from Combat Hapkido): Attacker throws a fairly punch at the defender, who is in a conciliatory, hands-outstretched gesture seemingly trying to pacify the clearly dangerous attacker. But this isn't just a peace-seeking physical sign: it's also the famous 'Fence' posture publicized and refined by Geoff Thompson, the premier professional barfighter in the UK (nearly a decade as doorman/bouncer/security director of big, violent clubs in the reputedly very violent town of Coventry, England, with three hundred documented fights on his 'resumé' during his bar-security career; sixth dan Shotokan, codirector of the British Combat Association, reality-based applied karate dojo director). In this position, a small motion of the closer of the defender's forearm deflects the attacker's punch to the inside; the defender simultaneously traps the attackers deflected arm with the hand that's not involved in the direction, puts an armbar across the deflected arm's elbow or just a little north of the elbow, turns 90º gripping the attacker's deflected arm's wrist (twisting it for extra oomph) and drives his/her weight into the pin. The forces the attacker down to take the pressure off the hyperextended elbow joint—which you can now attempt to break, or exploit to take the attacker all the way down to the ground.

There is no point, once the attacker's momentum is committed to the punch, where the attacker has any choice. His weight is moving forward; the redirection imposed by the defender via the `Fence' is far faster than he can react, and your 90º body turn leaves him literally trapped, his elbow being pressed extremely painfully against your pinning forearm. Apply suitable leverage force and he will go down, he has no freedom of movement to do anything but.

Now, guess what?—this move sequence is one of the prime applications of taikyoku shodan, the very first kata that Shotokan karate students learn. It's encoded in the conventions of the kata, but it's very plainly there if you understand how to read the kata. The rest of the first four moves of the kata tell you how to take advantage of the pinned attacker's helpless position to damage his forcibly lowered head, or alternatively to break his collarbone or place a full-force strike into his neck. None of it requiring the least bit of cooperation from him.

This is a part of our Kempo training.....doesn't make sense to me...but then again we could stun the attacker and get those mulitple techniques in? never saw anything in the MMA world of fighting? or any tournaments of any kind? that resembles this training? (maybe against UNtrain fighters)?

There is no established martial art whose techniques require your attacker to cooperate with you. I very much doubt that your Kempo techniques are designed to be applied to an attacker who is just standing there any more than the karate/taekwondo techniques I described above, encoded in taikyoku shodan/kicho il jang require your attacker to `just stand there'. They were designed by extremely experienced fighters for use on the street; they weren't there for dueling or exhibition or sport. Which bring us to you query:

(maybe against UNtrain fighters)?

All of these empty-hand MAs were created for civilian self-defense. And who would you be more likely to be defending yourself against—an untrained but violent, dangerous thug, or a fellow-student of the MAs? Of course the goal is to provide you with defense against untrained fighters—MAists are much less likely to attack you than anyone else, wound't you say??

Your techniques should work against a noncompliant attacker. The content of the TMAs was designed for such use. You should be training your techs against realistic, closely simulated street attacks where the attacker is not cooperating with you in the least. The enduring quality of these TMAs is based completely on the fact that over and over again, they will work—if you train them the right way—against an attacker who has no interest in cooperating with you. If you don't see how your MA techs lead to the forced incapacitation of your attacker, something is wrong, somewhere. But Kenpo relies no more than any other MA on the attacker's willingness to `just stand there', from the little I know about it.

 

[newGuy12]

I know very little about American Kenpo, but, correct me if I am wrong, if someone is new at that Kenpo, and is attacked with a right hand punch, then, even if our defender subsequently "got his bell rung" with the immediate left hand punch (the "other part" of the combination the attacker was doing), our defender still causes a big rukus if he executes FIVE SWORDS, say.

Take FIVE SWORDS as an example. That's a whole lot of arms flying around! Even in the fury of a fast-blast attack, do you suppose that ONE of those "swords" would block/and or strike/rake some punch or target? I suppose that the chances would be pretty high!

So, on the one hand, we have a human who knows nothing about self defense say. What would they do? Maybe just stand there. Maybe try to turn their back. Perhaps throw both hands up to try to block. Who knows? Someone probably DOES know if they study the typical human's response to a punch. But whatever, it is probably LESS effective than say, FIVE SWORDS.

Why?

Because at least then, our defender is not just standing there. Even if the motions are less than ideal, our defender is then getting his licks in! This is not a joke. Maybe even if its not the "ideal" defense, does not mean that it would have no good effect!

That's a lot of strikes being thrown IN A VERY SHORT TIME! BAM! That is like a machine gun! Not a semi-automatic weapon, but a full-automatic machine gun, very fast motion!!!

 

[terryl965]

Look S_L makes all of his post about real SD which to my knowledge of him, say he has never used any in any real life stituation. This is why he ask these question to get answers to his burning desire to learn what he cn from all of us knowledgable people. I have said this before and I'll say it again ever in Texas look me up and lets train and when I come to Hawaii next year I will look you up to train while I'm there.

 

[TheOriginalName]

Hey all,

The only time i've been in a "fight" was back in high school...and really i don't think that counts because i was never going to be fighting for my life as you would be on the street.

That said, i have always wondered about the effectiveness of high kicks in a street fight. whilst i see that they are extremely powerful i can't imagine too many situations where an attacker would not see it coming.....

Other than that we should always consider everything we learn as being practical. Remember that martial arts have their beginning in war - where it was life and death....those who survived have passed their knowledge on .... so really it all works in the right situation.

The stuff that doesn't work....that has gone to the grave......so to speak.

Anyway, just my 2cents....

 

[kidswarrior]

Have you got stuffs you have questions about in your training?

One of the great advantages of cross training, which I know many posters here engage in, is that one art can act as a BS detector for another. For example, studying kempo and kung fu san soo for a several-year overlap caused me to modify some of what I learned from each. But as for throwing anything out--no, I don't know enough yet to disregard something just because I don't yet understand how it may be useful. Too many times I've found myself dumbfounded by pulling out a technique or even a form that I'd written off years earlier.

 

[14 Kempo]

I might be taking this a bit out of line, but I agree with most, I am leary about throwing something away before I understand the what is being taught.

As far as answering the threads title questions, straight up ... in any given situation, a person really only needs one technique, that being the one that works. If you are good enough at what you do to be able to select the right technique, first time, every time ... then you only need the one. Good luck with that.

I rarely disregard techniques in total, however, I do make slight modifications or adjustments so that the concepts can be utilized with the limitations of my skill and movement, this normally under the guidance of my instructor.

 

[Big Don]

In Kenpo a technique is defined as two or more basics used in combination with each other, a basic being defined as any single move. How many techniques would you need is a question that to me depends less on how many techniques you have learned or what color belt you wear, and more on how well you know your basics, and the ruthlessness with which you are prepared to apply them. If you don't know your basics your techniques cannot be good. If you know your basics and know how to use them and if you are motivated enough, techniques might not enter in to the situation. We do a lot of grafting at our school. Which forces us to learn to see how basics work together.

 

[MJS]

If we look at an art like Krav Maga, we see many techniques. However, the initial application is the same. Let me explain. Lets take a 2 hand choke. Whether its from the side, front or rear, the pluck, as they call it, is used in all 3 situations. Why? Because as they claim, when the poop hits the fan, you probably won't be thinking clear, therefore, they don't want the defender to think, "Ok, I'm being choked!! Where is the attack? From the front. Ok, I figured that out. Now, which of my 10 defenses for front choke do I use now?"

Fastforward to Kenpo. Anyone familiar with the Parker and Tracy versions of Kenpo, can tell you that there are a HUGE number of techniques. We have techniques for a double lapel grab, if the person is pulling us, if the person is pushing us. What people fail to see, is these techniques are a foundation..nothing more. They give us an example to build off of. Problem is, is that most don't take the time to build for their own, instead wanting their instructor to do it all for us. News flash, but that hurts the student more than it helps them.

I've told the story many times of my technique line, where I'll call an attack that the student is not familiar with, and they just stand there. I ask if they know how to punch, block and kick. When they say yes, I say well do it! I love seeing the light bulb over their head shine bright, when they see the point I'm trying to make!

Chances are we will only need a few techniques, but we need to be able to adapt.

As for the person just standing there. Well, shame on the student for not taking their training to the next level! You need to be alive and adapt to what is being presented to you at the time!

When I'm learning something for the first time, my inst. goes slow and yes, its done in a static fashion. However, once I get the feel of it, he moves faster, and really tries to hit me. Not only will he do that, but while I'm in the middle of my defense, he'll move around and try to counter what I'm doing. The same thing with my grappling teachers. Slow, no resistance to get the feel, then speed and resistance is added.

I thank God for that, because he has my best interest in mind. He is making me think on the fly! My technique may not look pretty, but who the hell cares! Is a fight pretty? I defend myself and that is all that matters to me and to my teacher!

Moral of the story: People need to take their training up to the next level. You need to think on your own, and not get everything handed to you on a silver platter. Nothing is easy in life and you need to work for things, not expect to get them handed to you.

If your training isn't meeting your needs, rather than complain online about it, complain to a friend or whoever, find a school that suits your needs. Sound harsh? Sure does, but if SD is your goal, you gotta keep it real!

Mike

 

[Cirdan]

Don`t gather techniques and tricks like they were shiny baubles. Learn the principles and let it flow from there.

 

[MJS]

Don`t gather techniques and tricks like they were shiny baubles. Learn the principles and let it flow from there.

I agree 100% with this!!

We practice one step , one attacker throws a punch and we counter with numerous techniques that flows (hit them 4-10 times)...but the attacter is just standing there? ...would this happen in real life?

or we take them down and hit them numerous times while they are lying there?... will this happen in real life?

Most of us would not stand there after one block to our punch and not move away (in or out)...and as for takedowns...most of us would try to escape and get back up...and NOT take the numerous hits or get ourselves trap in an armbar?

This is a part of our Kempo training.....

Please, please, please don't lump everyone together here. This may apply to you and your school, but at least at mine, once the technique is learned in a slow fashion, the speed is picked up, resistance and movement is added. Something tells me that this is missing at your school.

never saw anything in the MMA world of fighting? or any tournaments of any kind? that resembles this training? (maybe against UNtrain fighters)?

Then quit!!! Quit Kenpo!!! If it sucks that bad, go do MMA, if thats what makes you happy. Then again, maybe you should be stepping back and looking at it from a different view. Maybe, just maybe its not the art, but the person doing the art.

 

[kidswarrior]

Don`t gather techniques and tricks like they were shiny baubles. Learn the principles and let it flow from there.

Well said. This is how it's going to go down in a real situation, anyway. Best to prepare for it that way (at the right time in ones training--there's more need for prepared techniques early in the training, I'm thinking).

I've told the story many times of my technique line, where I'll call an attack that the student is not familiar with, and they just stand there. I ask if they know how to punch, block and kick. When they say yes, I say well do it! I love seeing the light bulb over their head shine bright, when they see the point I'm trying to make!

Chances are we will only need a few techniques, but we need to be able to adapt.

Yes, exactly my belief too, Mike!

In Kenpo a technique is defined as two or more basics used in combination with each other, a basic being defined as any single move. How many techniques would you need is a question that to me depends less on how many techniques you have learned or what color belt you wear, and more on how well you know your basics, and the ruthlessness with which you are prepared to apply them. If you don't know your basics your techniques cannot be good. If you know your basics and know how to use them and if you are motivated enough, techniques might not enter in to the situation. We do a lot of grafting at our school. Which forces us to learn to see how basics work together.

An excellent summary of the entire puzzle, and how it all looks when it's assembled.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Most people learn to counter the counter......may of us would not just stand there and take the mulitple hits....(off course some may be stun)....

When in a street fight.....most of us will not just stand there....

as for high kicks...there are lots of people who can throw this in a blink of an "eye"....and create lots of damages..... for those who can defend this quicker....will have a great advantage too!

a poke in he eyes...or break a thumb, or hit in the groin....can end a fight quickly....

How much do we need? ....lots....just that you can over do it too!

just that the way we train? ....will it work for the streets?

Aloha (side walks too)

 

[Guardian]

Alot of good answers and information here.

Throughout my entire career, I've been involved in numerous scuffles and altercations as a cop especially on a base with Marines LOL (they love to fight at the clubs).

I've always taught and been taught that no technique is useless, because at some point and time if you are involved in altercations or fights and with practice, you will see that even that simple move or block or strike will flow from you with ease and most of the time, it will be unoticed until it's all over and done with and you have time to go over it all.

As I was instructed in Kenpo, even the block is a strike, I'm sure you have been briefed that already.

As far as myself personally, I've never had to use more then 10 moves that I can remember, most being locks and holds and it didn't hurt that my partner had a military working dog with him.

My personal favorite in an altercation that didn't involve my duties was a block of the punch right or left and a quick side kick to the knee area, even if I miss the exact spot, it didn't matter, close is good enough in that case, if they can't walk or stand without difficulty, they can't fight for very long.

Just my view on it.

 

[exile]

My personal favorite in an altercation that didn't involve my duties was a block of the punch right or left and a quick side kick to the knee area, even if I miss the exact spot, it didn't matter, close is good enough in that case, if they can't walk or stand without difficulty, they can't fight for very long.

Good point, G.—there's a hell of a lot to be said for a very hard, sharp side kick to the side of the knee joint—where the joint is weakest and there is little or no defense.

 

[Guardian]

Good point, G.—there's a hell of a lot to be said for a very hard, sharp side kick to the side of the knee joint—where the joint is weakest and there is little or no defense.

Thanks Exile, your absolutely right there. No defense once their that close in. I've only had to use it three in my life (thank goodness) that sound it makes is sickening, but effective.

 

[JadeDragon3]

At the school where I trained we had to learn 40 punch defense techniques for black sash. These consist of one person stepping in and punching while the other person blocks and then does the technique. Some punch defense techniques are longer & more complicated than others. But the way "we" were taught was that you don't have to use the whole technique in real life combat. You may even be able to put together bits and pieces of techniques to create a whole new punch defense technique. With that being said you litterally have 1000's of techniques to choose from. The possibilities are endless.