When do you take the title of sahbonim?

[Laurentkd]

OK, this thread is not meant to argue if or if not we should use the title of master. I could argue either side of it, but at this point have decided that I will take it when the time is right because that is the standard procedure for our art right now.

My question is, when did you take it? I am testing for 4th Dan in less than 4 weeks (yikes!!) and by Kukkiwan standards can have the title of master. However, since I will still be training at my master's school, I don't feel it is a title I should take. How can I put he and I on the same level? How can one school have two masters? Especially when I consider him my sahbonim, how can I allow myself to look as basically an equal in rank? So instead, I will retain my title of chief instructor (kyosahnim) until I am in my own dojang (hopefully in another year or so). This is my own choice and my instructor agrees, however I am sure in the future there will be students who reach 4th dan who never want to own a school. So will they take on the title of sahbonim?

My question to you is... when did you take on the title, or when do you think one should take on the title? I am not going to change my mind, it is the decision I feel good about. I am just wondering what everyone else thinks.


***EDIT***
You see I use master and sahbonim interchangeably. Sorry if you do not do the same and it seems confusing, please change it in your head to match what you use in your system

 

[Kacey]

My question to you is... when did you take on the title, or when do you think one should take on the title? I am not going to change my mind, it is the decision I feel good about. I am just wondering what everyone else thinks.

Well, this may not help too much - as I come from an ITF background, where sahbum means "instructor", and master instructor doesn't start until VII Dan... but here goes.

Last month, one of my seniors, Mr. Kohler - the senior student of my sahbum - tested for his VI Dan... putting him in the interesting position of being the same rank (not just the same title of sahbum, as we're all instructors) as his own sahbum. The thing to remember here is, there's rank, and there's experience. Mr. Kohler is a VI dan, true - but our sahbum is a senior VI Dan, getting ready to test for VII next year, and when our sahbum asked Mr. Kohler the same thing: "So... you're the same rank as your instructor now, hmm?" said "No sir - I may have the same belt rank, but you will always outrank me". That's the first part.

The second part is that our rank structure goes as follows: I-III Dan are novice BBs (bu-sahbum - assistant instructor); IV-VI Dan are expert BBs (sahbum - instructor); VII-IX Dan are master BBs (sahhyum - master instructor). These terms refer to rank - not position. Although I've only held the rank of VI Dan for 2 years, I have been sahbum - instructor to my own students - for over 10 years. When I started teaching, my students bowed in to bu-sahbum, based on my rank (I started teaching as an assistant at I Dan, and started my own class at II Dan) - until my sahbum heard them, and pointed out that I wasn't their assistant instructor, I was their instructor - and then I changed it. So in that sense, I've been sahbum for both a long and short time... but despite holding an expert rank - in the same range as my sahbum, who is a VI Dan - I would never presume to think that that meant we are equal in rank, any more than Mr. Kohler feels equal in rank to Mr. Arnold... even though they're both VI Dans.

Finally, there is sahbum the rank (IV-VI Dan) and sahbum the position. I have had many instructors throughout my 20 years in TKD - but I have had only one sahbum, one personal instructor to whom I look for guidance, training, and advice, only one person whom I refer to as my sahbum. I know people who have changed sahbums for various reasons - but they only had one sahbum at a time, no matter how many instructors they may have been working out with.

I hope all of that makes sense... I know what I mean, but I can't always get it to come out right in writing.

 

[Steel Tiger]

I'm not speaking from a TKD background but I have the title master because our school rank structure uses that title for the rank I have attained. My teacher also has the rank master, but I don't refer to him as master, but as teacher. Given our structure, it is theoretically possible to have a handful of masters in one class, but only one teacher.

Given you have qualified, or will soon qualify, to use the title master I don't see any reason not to, its a nice personal statement of achievement. I suspect that your master would not mind if you chose to use the title while still at his school for that sort of reason, not out of arrogance and self-agrandisement. Afterall you both know who is the teacher and who is the student.

 

[Laurentkd]

I'm not speaking from a TKD background but I have the title master because our school rank structure uses that title for the rank I have attained. My teacher also has the rank master, but I don't refer to him as master, but as teacher. Given our structure, it is theoretically possible to have a handful of masters in one class, but only one teacher.

Given you have qualified, or will soon qualify, to use the title master I don't see any reason not to, its a nice personal statement of achievement. I suspect that your master would not mind if you chose to use the title while still at his school for that sort of reason, not out of arrogance and self-agrandisement. Afterall you both know who is the teacher and who is the student.

Interesting set up and view point.
I am the first person under my master being promoted to 4th dan. I wonder if 10 years from now we too will have multiple masters in class, but only one teacher (my master). Maybe I just feel funny about it because I am the first and only one...

 

[Kwan Jang]

Last year two of my students at my location reached master rank. It was one of the proudest days of my life and I greatly enjoy calling them by their titles. Actually FAR more than they do or than I enjoy being addressed by mine. It can be a challenge being the first (or even one of the first) to blaze that trail, but you are not usurping your instructor's role. You are merely being recognized for the accomplishment you have earned. And that accomplishment is a testament to your instructor's skill and dedicaton in helping to motivate, guide you and help you to reach that level.

 

[Steel Tiger]

Interesting set up and view point.
I am the first person under my master being promoted to 4th dan. I wonder if 10 years from now we too will have multiple masters in class, but only one teacher (my master). Maybe I just feel funny about it because I am the first and only one...

Feeling funny might just be the problem. When my teacher was given the rank of master, his teacher was also a master. When I attained the same rank we conferred upon Chan Lao Shi the title of Grandmaster so that he would stand out from the rest of us.

According to our school charter one can only be made a Grandmaster if one's own teacher is no longer living. Now that Chan Lao Shi has passed away (a few years ago now) we could, theoretically, make my teacher a Grandmaster. I doubt that my teacher would much like that, however.

 

[wade]

OK, lets get back to the WTF where this all started. It says that if you are a 4th Dan then you are master rank. I have 4 schools. In the 4 schools there is me drinking coffee, uh wait, wrong thread. Under me there are 2 5th Dans and 4 4th Dans. The good lord only knows how many lower ranked BB's, they all look a like, ya know? Anyway, are they called master even when they don't have their own school? You betcha, they earned the rank and they are entitled to be called by it. It's not that big a deal, unless you make it one. Me, I still go by Wade, if nothing else it drives the "Masters" crazy.................... Oh yeah, I do call all of them by their first name, Master.... because like I said, they did earn it.

 

[Shaderon]

I actually agree with your choice in a way, I see a title you've earned to be one you should use, but if you choose to use a title that makes more sense to the structure of the school then that is something that is a good idea for common sense purposes. But like you, I can see a problem when the lower ranks catch up with you and might want to use the title "master". This is one of those cases where it might be a good idea to have a chat with them now and see what they feel like they might do. Of course they may always change their minds but it'll give you an idea.

The only way out of this I can see, is for you to use your bestowed Korean title in formal situations, like bowing at the beginning of the class etc, but in informal situations use an English title which differentiates you from everyone else. After all we should adapt to situations and not just be rigid.

 

[Last Fearner]

I began using the title of "Sabeom" or "Master" in 1987 when the Korean Master with whom I was training told me I was a "Master" and should use the title. I opened my first Dojang in 1978. By 1985, I was 4th Dan and had been teaching for 7 years, but had not known of the proper titles. I believe it is proper to use the term Sabeom whenever your Master, or Grandmaster who teaches you, awards you the title.

OK, lets get back to the WTF where this all started. It says that if you are a 4th Dan then you are master rank.

I'm not always 100% current on everything, so correct me if I'm wrong, but the WTF has nothing to do with ranks (anymore), or Dan promotions, and there is no mention on their website that I know which indicates any required levels of "Master" titles.

From WTF.org

"The WTF, an international sports federation governing Taekwondo, is mainly handling affairs related to member national associations and pertinent international Taekwondo competitions. There is no private dojang, a teaching institutes, whatsoever directly affiliated with WTF in any form. So, it is not relevant to ask anything about information regarding private dojangs to WTF."

"All matters about black belt Poom/Dan certification are dealt with by the Kukkiwon (World Taekwondo Headquarters). Dan/Poom promotion tests are conducted according to the Regulations for Promotion Tests of the Kukkiwon."

As for the Kukkiwon, their site contains Dan testing requirements, but makes no reference to anything to do with Master titles except in one passage about "High Dan Testings" 8th and 9th Dan, pertaining to recommendation by a "Taekwondo master holding 9th Dan or higher..."

"11. Submit documents
a. One application form for promotion test
b. Apply to 8th, 9th Dan with application recommendation by a Taekwondo master holding 9th Dan or higher or president of the member national association of the WTF in the pertinent country
c. Curriculum vitae that includes the martial arts career
d. Foreigners of Korean origin should submit a document that certifies his/her residence outside Korea."

It is my understanding that the English term of "Master," and the Korean term of Sabeom ( 사범 ) are Kwan terms which vary from Kwan to Kwan, and organization to organization. In general terms, "Sabeom" refers to anyone who is designated by a Kwan leader (the Kwanjangnim - 관장&#45784 to be a teacher of Black Belts (usually a 4th or 5th Dan)

The specific title of Sabeomnim ( 사범님 ) is reserved only for the one person who is in charge of a Dojang - - the school head (owner) or "head master" (In Korea, it was usually required to be 6th Dan for this). This is sometimes referred to as a "Chief Master," "Senior Master," or even a "Senior Instructor." This is the one top dog at any particular school.

Other instructors within the school might be awarded the title of a Master, and be called a "Sabeom" in accordance with their rank, but there is only one "Sabeom of the Dojang." I believe that traditionally in Korean Taekwondo, only one person within each school is called the Sabeom, but the term "Master" has taken on a wider definition.

Sabeom ( 사범 ) means "Master" or "Head Teacher."
honorific form is Sabeomnim

Kyo sa ( 교사 ) means a "teacher; instructor; schoolteacher."
honorific form is Kyosanim.

Jo kyo ( 조교 ) means an "assistant."
honorific form is Jokyonim.

My experience in the Army was similar. There are many Generals, each with different designation depending on the number of stars.
1 star = Brigadier General
2 star = Major General
3 star = Lieutenant General
4 star = General
5 star = The President (The last 5 star Army General Dwight D. Eisenhower)

They are all called "Generals," but there is also a difference in rank and specific titles.

At basic training we had the rank of E-5 sergeants who were not "Drill Sergeants." There were several E-5 and E-6 who were Drill Sergeants (DS), but only one was the "Senior Drill Sergeant" (SDS), and he was in charge of the other Drill Sergeants for each of the three platoons in Delta Battery.

As to consideration for any Taekwondo Master Instructor who has one of their students promoted to the rank of Master, it is not a threat to their status, but a badge of honor that they have one or more students whom they have trained to this high level.

CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[terryl965]

OK I'm confused over this question because I have always been told Sahbonim means head Instructor. no where does it say Master, Head Instructor is a title for the person that is the chief Instructor of the school. But is you Like you can call me master of Dinner since I eat alot and will be willing to be that for all of you.

 

[phlaw]

We have had numerous Master instructors in our school, and it has never been an issue.

My instructor just attained his 7th Dan last year, according to the Kukkiwon he now holds the title of Grand Master. After his instructor (9th Dan) presented him his certificate and referred to him as Grand Master, and shortly after the ceremony he departed the Dojang. My instructor instructed his students to never refer to him as a Grand Master because The Grand Master just left.

My instructor is very humble, and has always asked me to call him Mr. not Master. This is one of the things I have always respected about him. All of his students know he is a Master and Grand Master, but he does not demand that respect, he earns it.

 

[exile]

We have had numerous Master instructors in our school, and it has never been an issue.

My instructor just attained his 7th Dan last year, according to the Kukkiwon he now holds the title of Grand Master. After his instructor (9th Dan) presented him his certificate and referred to him as Grand Master, and shortly after the ceremony he departed the Dojang. My instructor instructed his students to never refer to him as a Grand Master because The Grand Master just left.

My instructor is very humble, and has always asked me to call him Mr. not Master. This is one of the things I have always respected about him. All of his students know he is a Master and Grand Master, but he does not demand that respect, he earns it.

I think really great souls wear their titles rather lightly. My own instructor is 5th dan KKW, but goes by Mr. His outstanding qualities are evident, and watching him do hyungs is a revelation. And that kind of everyday modesty, given his skill as a practitioner and teacher, is much more impressive than people who insist on the MA equivalent of the German-style Herr Dr. Reverend Professor... where you wind up with a title a good deal longer than the person's full name!

But is you Like you can call me master of Dinner since I eat alot and will be willing to be that for all of you.

So can I be Master of Beer, then?

 

[Shaderon]

So can I be Master of Beer, then?

Of course you can Exile, as long as I can be Master of Irish Whiskey *slurp*

 

[rmclain]

Probably Taekwondo uses different levels for their Korean titles than I know. From Master Hong Jong-pyo and Master Park Chul-hee (founders of Kangduk-Won) the following titles and their meaning are listed below:

Jee Kwan Jang Nim: Branch School Director
Kwan Jang Nim: School Director

Do Ju Nim: Founder

Noh Sa Nim: Old Expert

Gho Sa Nim: Master

Sabomnim: Instructor (3rd/4th Dan or chief instructor of a school that is not yet a master)

Kyo Sa Nim: Instructor (1st or 2nd Dan)

Jyokyo Nim - Assistant instructor

R. McLain

 

[jim777]

Last year two of my students at my location reached master rank. It was one of the proudest days of my life and I greatly enjoy calling them by their titles. Actually FAR more than they do or than I enjoy being addressed by mine. It can be a challenge being the first (or even one of the first) to blaze that trail, but you are not usurping your instructor's role. You are merely being recognized for the accomplishment you have earned. And that accomplishment is a testament to your instructor's skill and dedicaton in helping to motivate, guide you and help you to reach that level.

This is a great sentiment Who is happier for the new 4th Dan than the new Master's teacher?

 

[exile]

Of course you can Exile, as long as I can be Master of Irish Whiskey *slurp*

OK, I'll drink to that, Shads! :drinkbeer

Probably Taekwondo uses different levels for their Korean titles than I know. From Master Hong Jong-pyo and Master Park Chul-hee (founders of Kangduk-Won) the following titles and their meaning are listed below:

Jee Kwan Jang Nim: Branch School Director
Kwan Jang Nim: School Director

Do Ju Nim: Founder

Noh Sa Nim: Old Expert

Gho Sa Nim: Master

Sabomnim: Instructor (3rd/4th Dan or chief instructor of a school that is not yet a master)

Kyo Sa Nim: Instructor (1st or 2nd Dan)

Jyokyo Nim - Assistant instructor

R. McLain

So I take it that Kwan Jang Nim is nonspecific about the dan ranking, as vs. titles like Sah Bum Nim and Kyo Sa Nim?

But how exactly is Noh Sa Nim applied—who gets called that?

 

[Laurentkd]

The specific title of Sabeomnim ( 사범님 ) is reserved only for the one person who is in charge of a Dojang - - the school head (owner) or "head master" (In Korea, it was usually required to be 6th Dan for this). This is sometimes referred to as a "Chief Master," "Senior Master," or even a "Senior Instructor." This is the one top dog at any particular school.

Other instructors within the school might be awarded the title of a Master, and be called a "Sabeom" in accordance with their rank, but there is only one "Sabeom of the Dojang." I believe that traditionally in Korean Taekwondo, only one person within each school is called the Sabeom, but the term "Master" has taken on a wider definition.


CM D.J. Eisenhart

The bolded parts seem to share my sentiment. Although, I have never before thought of taking master but not sahbom...

I have really enjoyed hearing how you guys with much more time in rank (and with higher ranks under you) do it. I think eventually we'll be at something like that, it is just weird for me right now as I am the only one (and will be for at least 4 or 5 years minimum).

 

[Laurentkd]

But how exactly is Noh Sa Nim applied—who gets called that?

Good question!

 

[Shaderon]

So what would you say is the correct title for a 1st Dan assistant instructor who is under a 2nd Dan Sahbumnim?

Boosahbum(nim), kyosahnim or Jyokyonim?

 

[Laurentkd]

So what would you say is the correct title for a 1st Dan assistant instructor who is under a 2nd Dan Sahbumnim?

Boosahbum(nim), kyosahnim or Jyokyonim?

For me...

jyokyonim is 1st degree

bokyonim is 2nd and higher

kyosahnim is the chief instructor of the school (the one just under master who does a lot of the "running" of things.) Rank doesn't really matter on this one for us.

and then sahbonim is the master instructor (top dog at the school as well as 4th degree black belt)

my master has told me I could take the title of bosahbonim, or seungsanim.. basically because he knows I don't want sahbonim, but figures I might want something else just as an upgrade. I think I'll just stick with kyosahnim though