When do you take the title of sahbonim?

[IcemanSK]

I began using the title of "Sabeom" or "Master" in 1987 when the Korean Master with whom I was training told me I was a "Master" and should use the title. I opened my first Dojang in 1978. By 1985, I was 4th Dan and had been teaching for 7 years, but had not known of the proper titles. I believe it is proper to use the term Sabeom whenever your Master, or Grandmaster who teaches you, awards you the title.



I'm not always 100% current on everything, so correct me if I'm wrong, but the WTF has nothing to do with ranks (anymore), or Dan promotions, and there is no mention on their website that I know which indicates any required levels of "Master" titles.

From WTF.org

"The WTF, an international sports federation governing Taekwondo, is mainly handling affairs related to member national associations and pertinent international Taekwondo competitions. There is no private dojang, a teaching institutes, whatsoever directly affiliated with WTF in any form. So, it is not relevant to ask anything about information regarding private dojangs to WTF."

"All matters about black belt Poom/Dan certification are dealt with by the Kukkiwon (World Taekwondo Headquarters). Dan/Poom promotion tests are conducted according to the Regulations for Promotion Tests of the Kukkiwon."

As for the Kukkiwon, their site contains Dan testing requirements, but makes no reference to anything to do with Master titles except in one passage about "High Dan Testings" 8th and 9th Dan, pertaining to recommendation by a "Taekwondo master holding 9th Dan or higher..."

"11. Submit documents
a. One application form for promotion test
b. Apply to 8th, 9th Dan with application recommendation by a Taekwondo master holding 9th Dan or higher or president of the member national association of the WTF in the pertinent country
c. Curriculum vitae that includes the martial arts career
d. Foreigners of Korean origin should submit a document that certifies his/her residence outside Korea."

It is my understanding that the English term of "Master," and the Korean term of Sabeom ( 사범 ) are Kwan terms which vary from Kwan to Kwan, and organization to organization. In general terms, "Sabeom" refers to anyone who is designated by a Kwan leader (the Kwanjangnim - 관장&#45784 to be a teacher of Black Belts (usually a 4th or 5th Dan)

The specific title of Sabeomnim ( 사범님 ) is reserved only for the one person who is in charge of a Dojang - - the school head (owner) or "head master" (In Korea, it was usually required to be 6th Dan for this). This is sometimes referred to as a "Chief Master," "Senior Master," or even a "Senior Instructor." This is the one top dog at any particular school.

Other instructors within the school might be awarded the title of a Master, and be called a "Sabeom" in accordance with their rank, but there is only one "Sabeom of the Dojang." I believe that traditionally in Korean Taekwondo, only one person within each school is called the Sabeom, but the term "Master" has taken on a wider definition.

Sabeom ( 사범 ) means "Master" or "Head Teacher."
honorific form is Sabeomnim

Kyo sa ( 교사 ) means a "teacher; instructor; schoolteacher."
honorific form is Kyosanim.

Jo kyo ( 조교 ) means an "assistant."
honorific form is Jokyonim.

My experience in the Army was similar. There are many Generals, each with different designation depending on the number of stars.
1 star = Brigadier General
2 star = Major General
3 star = Lieutenant General
4 star = General
5 star = The President (The last 5 star Army General Dwight D. Eisenhower)

They are all called "Generals," but there is also a difference in rank and specific titles.

At basic training we had the rank of E-5 sergeants who were not "Drill Sergeants." There were several E-5 and E-6 who were Drill Sergeants (DS), but only one was the "Senior Drill Sergeant" (SDS), and he was in charge of the other Drill Sergeants for each of the three platoons in Delta Battery.

As to consideration for any Taekwondo Master Instructor who has one of their students promoted to the rank of Master, it is not a threat to their status, but a badge of honor that they have one or more students whom they have trained to this high level.

CM D.J. Eisenhart

It seems to me that (as we can see from the posts here) that titles (Kyo Sa, Sabom, etc) tend to take on their own meaning in different schools. I've certainly heard enough stories of Korean insructors saying, "Master is 4th Dan." Then a student gets close to that & the instructor says, "Master is 5th Dan."

CM Eisenhart, It seems as though "Army General" meaning different things depending on which base your in. No wonder it seems to mean less to people in MA all the time.

 

[TraditionalTKD]

In the Kukkiwon system, Sah Bum Nim is used for blacks belts between the rank of 4th and 6th Dan. Sah Bum Nim denotes someone who, although still with the organization of their Grandmaster (Kwan Jang Nim), is entitled to call their class their own. They are entitled to teach on their own, recommend students for Dan testing, and judge at testings.
A black belt between the rank of 1st and 3rd Dan is called Kyo Sah Nim, and they teach under the supervision of a 4th-6th Dan.

 

[Muwubu16858]

In my background, my teacher taught me Sabomnim means instructor, not master. there is no real name for master, but we call a person 6th dan or higher master instructor, or bomsah (the reverse of sah bom, similar to the japanese Hanshi, but different ending character). Here is a list of the titles my teacher uses, and at what level, and their meanings:

Cho Dans are called Ji Sa (Nim), meaning "Aspiration Teacher", or "Goal Teacher." This is because students see earning their black belt as their first (hopefully of many) goals to accomplish in their training, since at cho dan level, one has completed the basics necessary to learn the more advanced techniques. However, they only may assist in correcting lower belts in class, but may not teach yet.

Ee Dans and Sam Dans are called Kyo Sa (Nim), which is comonly called "Assistant Instructor." Traditionally, Kyo Sa are only learning how to teach at this point in training, as well as finishing up on learning all the techniques in the fighting aspect of martial arts training (kicking, striking, twist-joints, throwing, grappling, etc.). They may teach class, but only under the guidance or permission of a Sa Bom (Nim), and may not teach new items in class, but continue and assist the students in what they have already learned from Sa Bom (Nim).

Sa Dan and Up are Sa Bom (Nim), or "Example Teacher." We call it Instructor today. Basically, an Instructor has learned all the physical, but has continuing training in the spiritual and mental aspects. An Instructor is able to teach on his or her own, and is permitted to open their own schools. And exclusively in my sect we begin learning basic chiropractic skills, and how to fix sprains and reset broken bones. At Oh Dan, we learn Accupressure therapy.

At Yuk Dan, we use the term Bom Sa (Nim) to distinguish the difference between a Instructor and a Master Instructor, since a Master Instructor is almost like a Doctor in our sect. At this level, one may now learn Accupuncture, but must, if doing so, get certified by whatever body governs accupuncture in his or her own country.

At Pal Dan, we use the term Dal Sa, meaning a teacher who has reached or attained higher than others. At this point, a teacher is much older, and must change techniques to fit his or her aging body. A lot of slow circular techique is emphasized at this point.

Thier were many different names for different types of teachers a long time ago, but because now we follow Dan ranking systems, these names are obsolete, so in any case, although my teacher uses these terms and a few others that dont need mention, we still just go by Sa Bom (Nim). It's A generic term for teacher or Instructor.

Ok, Ok I've rambled on. My advice the the starter of this post is take the title Sa Bom. It doesnt make you higher than you teacher in any way, It's just a way to recognize who is able to teach in a school. If you are a 4th dan and are a "TEACHER" in this school, recognized by your teacher and/or his style as ready to teach, you are Sa Bom.

 

[TraditionalTKD]

That's a lot of titles. Must get very confusing.

 

[rmclain]

OK, I'll drink to that, Shads! :drinkbeer



So I take it that Kwan Jang Nim is nonspecific about the dan ranking, as vs. titles like Sah Bum Nim and Kyo Sa Nim?

But how exactly is Noh Sa Nim applied—who gets called that?

Good question. I've never heard anyone else in the martial arts community use this title. My instructor seems to prefer it for himself though over the others.

From conversations, I would use that title (Noh Sa Nim) for someone that has trained continuously for over 50 years. I would exclude anyone that was adminstrating martial arts and not wearing a dobok, sweating and training for that many years. This may narrow the field about who receives this title a bit.

R. McLain

 

[IcemanSK]

There's been a lot of good discussion about this. Have we come to a definitive answer? It appears that the consensus is that 4th Dan is the point at which Sa Bum is most often used.

Forgive me folks, I just figure this should be a question with an answer. If I'm wrong, so be it.:ultracool

 

[Muwubu16858]

the titles my teacher use are a mix of very old terms meaning different types of teachers, no specific meaning for rank. He just ordered them in the fashion of what they mean to about what skill level one should be at at certain ranks. there are more, but they basically are equivalent to the dal sa title.

now to the forum question, I think it is only proper that she take the title. By doing so, it doesnt make her higher than her teacher in anyway,as it is a term that only means Instructor. Not that I'm undermining the title either, I to use the title as I hold 4th dan in tang soo do, tae kwon do and karate do. The title is, however, as the word karate, and sa bom are a dime a dozen in this world. unless her teacher says otherwise that she shouldn't take the title, then it would be fine that she does...that is all I hae to say....


(Yes, finally that muwubu guy shut up!!!)

 

[Shaderon]

There's been a lot of good discussion about this. Have we come to a definitive answer? It appears that the consensus is that 4th Dan is the point at which Sa Bum is most often used.

Forgive me folks, I just figure this should be a question with an answer. If I'm wrong, so be it.:ultracool

Well I'm not as high up and experienced as most of you, but I think that Sah Bum Nim is a rank, not a grade. Sorry that sounds contradictory but it's not in my head and it's a bit hard to explain.

If the highest rank and the head of the school is less than 4th Dan, I think they should have the title, if the 4th Dan is in a school where there is much higher grades and they are an assistant then it's a matter of choice of the Sah Bum Nim.

I might conflict with what the original meaning of the word is, or what is written down, but that's just my belief.

 

[IcemanSK]

Well I'm not as high up and experienced as most of you, but I think that Sah Bum Nim is a rank, not a grade. Sorry that sounds contradictory but it's not in my head and it's a bit hard to explain.

If the highest rank and the head of the school is less than 4th Dan, I think they should have the title, if the 4th Dan is in a school where there is much higher grades and they are an assistant then it's a matter of choice of the Sah Bum Nim.

I might conflict with what the original meaning of the word is, or what is written down, but that's just my belief.

Well, that is the question that I'm looking for the answer to. For example, I'm a 3rd Dan, but the sole instructor (Senior Instructor as my organization calls me). Some folks in my position do call themselves Sa Bum. It doesn't seem like an appropriate title given my rank: (despite my position in the school) Kyo Sa would seem more appropriate in my thinking. I have a grandmaster that I run my school under. We have a title system that goes along side belt rank. However, it uses English terms (Instructor, Head Instructor, Chief Instructor, Master, etc). I'm curious what the Korean term would be used for someone in my position.

Personally, my students call me Mr. Jensen, & that works for me. I'm not looking for permission to be called Sa Bum.

 

[rmclain]

Well, that is the question that I'm looking for the answer to. For example, I'm a 3rd Dan, but the sole instructor (Senior Instructor as my organization calls me). Some folks in my position do call themselves Sa Bum. It doesn't seem like an appropriate title given my rank: (despite my position in the school) Kyo Sa would seem more appropriate in my thinking. I have a grandmaster that I run my school under. We have a title system that goes along side belt rank. However, it uses English terms (Instructor, Head Instructor, Chief Instructor, Master, etc). I'm curious what the Korean term would be used for someone in my position.

Personally, my students call me Mr. Jensen, & that works for me. I'm not looking for permission to be called Sa Bum.

What does the Grandmaster that you run your school under call you?

R. McLain

 

[IcemanSK]

What does the Grandmaster that you run your school under call you?

R. McLain

He calls me Mr. Jensen. In fact, in the time we've known each other he's never called me by my 1st name. Last Fearner is in our organization also & I'd bet he's never called him anything but Master Eisenhart.

 

[Balrog]

In the ATA, one is not eligible for the title of Master until 6th Degree. Once you promote to 6th Degree, you become a Master Candidate. If ATA determines that you have met all the qualifications for Mastership, you are invited to join the next Master's training class and become a Master Inductee. At the completion of the class, you are invested with the title of Master Instructor.

 

[Dave Leverich]

Doh, he's found me .

Welcome to the place Balrog

 

[Balrog]

Doh, he's found me .

Welcome to the place Balrog

I'm stalkin' ya, dude!

Actually, I've been here for quite some time, just haven't been posting. I decided to finally start pitching my $0.02 worth in.

 

[Klassh]

See: Accreditation

 

[IcemanSK]

*bump*

In the light of the "Sensei" question in the General section, I figured I'd bring this up again.

Translation issues come up here as well, with Sahbum. Sahbum nim is the honorific in Korean. It sems to me that it is not a title one takes on oneself. But rather, it is one that is given (presumably by a senior). For those who's knowledg of Korean is good, please advice.

 

[MBuzzy]

I didn't post in this one the first time around....but I might as well kick in my perspective.

From a Korean translation perspective, Its already been stated. Sa Bom Nim is the term for Head instructor. Kya Sa Nim is Instructor and Jo Kyo Nim is assistant. They are gnerally all positions and not tied to any specific rank....of course, different organizations have different requirements for what ranks you have to be to attain those positions.

In the US Soo Bahk Do Federation (where I am training now), Sa Bom is a title given to someone who has met certain requirements. They must have already spent time as a Jo Kyo and a Kyo Sa before being a Sa Bom. Sa Boms and Kyo Sas are both eligible to own their own schools (although there may be a rank requirement there).

As for Master, it is tied to a rank as far as I know.....of course different organizations do it differently, but as far as I'm concerned, you make 4th Dan, you're a Master. Plain and simple.

(And the Nim part is the honorific.....just a term of respect which gets attached to the titles)

 

[Laurentkd]

ok, so here is what we ended up doing.
I know have the title of "bo sah bom nim" (basically because that is what my master's master said is the best way to do it). But I am still considered the "chief instructor." So while my Korean title has sahbomnim in it, I don't call myself master (although my master will often refer to me as a junior master- as in junior to him).
I would have been happy staying with kyosahnim, but since we did have a couple students promote to third degree, keeping them at just bokyonim didn't seem fun, so they got upgraded which means I had to get upgraded. Personally, one title is as good as another for me, and I think the new third degrees felt the same way, but that is how my sahbonim wanted it and so it was done!
Once I am in my own school I will be sahbom and master, but right now I like how things are.
Now we can just get back to what matters- training!

 

[DArnold]

OK, this thread is not meant to argue if or if not we should use the title of master. I could argue either side of it, but at this point have decided that I will take it when the time is right because that is the standard procedure for our art right now.

My question is, when did you take it? I am testing for 4th Dan in less than 4 weeks (yikes!!) and by Kukkiwan standards can have the title of master. However, since I will still be training at my master's school, I don't feel it is a title I should take. How can I put he and I on the same level? How can one school have two masters? Especially when I consider him my sahbonim, how can I allow myself to look as basically an equal in rank? So instead, I will retain my title of chief instructor (kyosahnim) until I am in my own dojang (hopefully in another year or so). This is my own choice and my instructor agrees, however I am sure in the future there will be students who reach 4th dan who never want to own a school. So will they take on the title of sahbonim?
My question to you is... when did you take on the title, or when do you think one should take on the title? I am not going to change my mind, it is the decision I feel good about. I am just wondering what everyone else thinks.
***EDIT***
You see I use master and sahbonim interchangeably. Sorry if you do not do the same and it seems confusing, please change it in your head to match what you use in your system

You are trying to use two standards.
This does does not work and will also confuse your juniors.
Talk to your instructor.

I understand humility but if you don't feel worthy of the rank then don't take it. On the other hand if you respect your instructor then this is not an option!

Everyone who has been promoted, who is worth anything, has felt unworthy and had to grow into the rank.

The difference between a junior 7th Dan and a senior 7th Dan is about the same as the difference between a white belt and a 3rd dan.

So do you wish to look at your rank through a juniors eyes who only sees numbers...
Or do you understand what the rank means?
Good luck

 

[Dave Leverich]

Master Arnold, what would be a list of the words if you have them Sir?

Aka, in mine we use Sabum(nim) as Instructor, but I have friends from Korea in the WTF that consider it a 4th+ Dan instructor. I'm curious about the actual Korean translation of each.

Panja (nim) - High ranked student
Sunbae (nim) - Senior student
Kyosa (nim) - Assistant instructor
Sabum (nim) - Head instructor (or 4th+?)
Kwanjang (nim) - Head of a Gym (in ours I see this more as a style or org, aka CDK/MDK)

Does that seem right? I haven't seen one that clearly states 'master instructor', not in the same sense that we seem to view it in the states.