Titles : Master , Grand Master

[NanFeiShen]

Titles seem so important in the eyes of many western students, Sifu, Master , Grand Master, and looking around the web at variuos pages and links, one sees a few teachers with the titles Master or Grand Master, now my question is:
Taking knowledge, both theoretical and practical into account, plus experience and years spent, what defines a Master and a Grand Master?

IMHO, a Sifu is a teacher of students, a Master is a teacher of Sifu's (an individual who has a school that runs subschools each being run by a Sifu), and a Grand Master is an individual who has students who are Masters, each running their own schools with sub-schools/branches which are being run by Sifu's.
Therefore there should be a fair amount of individuals who claim the title Master, but very few who can lay claim to the title Grand Master.

Or am i in the wrong frame of mind with this?.

 

[Hand Sword]

No. Sounds about right to me.

 

[Jade Tigress]

I don't know alot about this either, but from my limited understanding I thought Sifu and Master were the same thing, and a Grand Master was someone who created their own system. ???

 

[jagenheie]

in my art the grand master is the one person that has learned everything the art has to offer his teacher who was the grand master is now the great grandmaster and his teacher who was the first grandmaster is the great great grandmaster

 

[Jdokan]

That's pretty much how I intrepret it and how it worked in the organizations I have belonged to...

 

[Andy Moynihan]

I much preferred the connotation the word "Master" had in old England: Simply That older guy who was teaching you his subject. Nothing more.

 

[Drac]

I don't know alot about this either, but from my limited understanding I thought Sifu and Master were the same thing, and a Grand Master was someone who created their own system. ???

That was my understanding as well....

 

[MaartenSFS]

It all really depends who is translating. I can tell you that in Chinese Shifu means "teacher father" and anyone that is a qualified professional in any field can be called this. Then there are VERY specific words for the positions above that all the way up to great great great grandmaster et cetera, but worded much more complicated. And pretty much most of it is farce, tradition, and rumour/legend - mostly farce.

 

[Boomer]

I believe that anything more than "teacher", "Mr./Miss/Mrs./Ms.", "sir/ma'am", or the designated equivalent of each of those by language or style is self aggrandizing egotistical hooey.

If we are instructors on the martial path, shouldn't we be setting the example of humility? A respectful utterance of "sensei" suits me just fine.

I've had the same quote ever since I joined this forum, and I firmly believe it. Unless you have slaves of some sort, there is no need to be called "master".

 

[NanFeiShen]

Thanx for the interesting and varied answers, it is nice to hear all the different points of view.

I don't know alot about this either, but from my limited understanding I thought Sifu and Master were the same thing, and a Grand Master was someone who created their own system. ???

Good point, I never considered that , but another embodiment of the Title Grand Master that i have encountered ,(and never included in my original ) was the last in the line of a particular style, the most senior practitioner of a particular system.

I believe that anything more than "teacher", "Mr./Miss/Mrs./Ms.", "sir/ma'am", or the designated equivalent of each of those by language or style is self aggrandizing egotistical hooey.

If we are instructors on the martial path, shouldn't we be setting the example of humility? A respectful utterance of "sensei" suits me just fine.

I hear you on this one.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I thought Sifu and Master were the same thing, and a Grand Master was someone who created their own system. ???

Sifu is usualy just a black belt instructor in many systems and under a Master. A grandmaster can be one who started an organisation OR a person who has studied many years and inherited the title upon the death or retirement of the present Grandmaster


NOW I may be inncorect on this and it may varry from system to system.

 

[qi-tah]

I believe that anything more than "teacher", "Mr./Miss/Mrs./Ms.", "sir/ma'am", or the designated equivalent of each of those by language or style is self aggrandizing egotistical hooey.

If we are instructors on the martial path, shouldn't we be setting the example of humility? A respectful utterance of "sensei" suits me just fine.

I've had the same quote ever since I joined this forum, and I firmly believe it. Unless you have slaves of some sort, there is no need to be called "master".

I have no problem calling my teacher "Master Shao", I respect him and if that's how he prefers being addressed by his students then that's ok by me. It's just a title after all, the respect is the most important thing.

 

[oxy]

I believe that anything more than "teacher", "Mr./Miss/Mrs./Ms.", "sir/ma'am", or the designated equivalent of each of those by language or style is self aggrandizing egotistical hooey.

If we are instructors on the martial path, shouldn't we be setting the example of humility? A respectful utterance of "sensei" suits me just fine.

I've had the same quote ever since I joined this forum, and I firmly believe it. Unless you have slaves of some sort, there is no need to be called "master".

But doesn't "humility" sometimes involve calling the other person master?

My teacher's teacher had a de facto standard in which everyone called everyone else Si Hing no matter who joined the school first.

 

[Boomer]

Sifu is usualy just a black belt instructor in many systems and under a Master. A grandmaster can be one who started an organisation OR a person who has studied many years and inherited the title upon the death or retirement of the present Grandmaster

It has been my experience in studying ying jow pai, a shaolin system, that they follow the ranking order of the monks. The teacher of the school was sifu, his instructor was a notch higher and called segung, and the "abbot"/ grand master was se tai gung.

 

[Kacey]

IMHO, a Sifu is a teacher of students, a Master is a teacher of Sifu's (an individual who has a school that runs subschools each being run by a Sifu), and a Grand Master is an individual who has students who are Masters, each running their own schools with sub-schools/branches which are being run by Sifu's.

In general, I would agree with your sequence; those with integrity will follow such a system, and those without... well... it really doesn't matter to them what the rest of us think, does it?

 

[Jade Tigress]

To my understanding, "Sifu" is the Cantonese word for "Master", no?

 

[LawDog]

Most of the Kung Fu Masters that I know have told me that Sifu is a Master and Sigung is the same as a black belt.

 

[Boomer]

I found three decent links that have definitions for sifu and sigung:


http://www.dstaiji.com/glossary.html

http://www.authentickungfu.com/seven_star/explanations.html

http://www.kungfu-videos.com/learn_about_Ving_Tsun.html#terminology



I obviously am not a fan of the whole title thing. I will say that culturally it fits easterners far better than westerners. In Asian culture, to have a master took a different connotation than here in the west, and I feel that we in the west have abused the title of "master" for our own egos.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Most of the Kung Fu Masters that I know have told me that Sifu is a Master and Sigung is the same as a black belt.

Sigung is higher in rank than Sifu. Perhaps you're confusing it with Si Hing which would be the title of a Senior Student.

 

[HKphooey]

I just hope I never train with a teacher with last name of Bates!