When a student can't/won't do a particular aspect of the curriculum?

[Carol]

Recently I was watching an MAist do a beautiful form. I complimented him in admiration, and we began a conversation. He lamented that he couldn't teach all the forms that he'd like to teach, because of one reason or another. He said that some forms have some flying moves and he has students that can't, or won't, do those kinds of moves. He said that other forms are based off of rolls (such as a forward or backward roll) and he has students that can't, or won't do that.

So, a question that I'd like to throw out to students and teachers alike...what do you do when you have someone that can't or won't perform one or two aspects of your curriculum?

Do you show them the door? Is it all or nothing?

Or do you work with them? If you work with them, how do you do it?

 

[bushidomartialarts]

Depends on the student.

If the student has a legitimate disability (jacked up knee, in a wheelchair, serious back problems, missing an arm -- all things I've worked with), then I'll work with the student to find a reasonable substitute.

If the student is just sort of behind the curve....not a natural athlete, overweight, that sort of thing...I'll usually amend the timeline. At point A in the training, a jumping kick might be too much, but by point B we'll tuck it back in there. By black belt, they've learned everything and have a great sense of accomplishment.

If the student is just a lazy butthead, I continue to encourage them. If that doesn't work, I encourage them to seek success elsewhere.

 

[Xue Sheng]

As a student (a long time ago in a galaxy far far away) this is why I do not train Shaolin Long Fist anymore, I won't do a no handed cartwheel with jain (double edged Chinese sword) in my hand and I won't do (possibly can't do) a cart wheel at all. So I tried a different style, which at that time was Xingyi and I am happy I did. Long Fist is not my style that is all.

As a teacher, it depends on the reasons a student can't or won't do something, but in general work with them.

 

[bydand]

I think we are talking about two different animals here. If a student CAN'T do a move, but is willing to work and do everything else they can. Then I would think some extra work and maybe one-on-one would help find either the development of the skill needed, or an acceptable alternative.

If the student WON'T do the move, well it may just be time to explain the simple facts of life. Do it, or don't expect to advance beyond where they are right now.

There is a huge difference in my book between can't and won't. Can't is something you can work on.

 

[exile]

I've not had that problem so far—my students are mostly beginners and they don't usually find much that's a problem for them to execute. But I suspect that most students who won't do a tech that they need to have something that amounts to a good reason (at least, from their perspective). Exaggerated sense of personal gracelessness and awkardness, so they're too self-conscious to feel able to do the particular aspect of the curriculum in question; excessively timid, so they're fearful of doing certain techs that look to them as if they're too much in harm's way... that kind of thing.

I would start from that perspective and try to get to the root of what sort of issue like this they have. But it's not necessarily going to be easy. Even if you've identified the problem, I think it takes special training and specialized knowledge to know how to work around it. Mostly, I'd take it as a big alarm-signal that something is seriously troubling the student about the material involved... bearing in mind that it may point to a difficulty too deep for you to solve.

 

[jks9199]

It all depends. Is the student physically incapable (we had a guy who only had one good arm, for example) of ever doing it, or are they incapable today, but might be with training and practice? Or are they mentally blocked? If so -- why? Are they dealing with a personal phobia or neurosis or learning disablity (I've got a kid right now that is borderline autistic/Aspergers & ADD, who takes special handling!) or are they simply stuck in "I can't do this"?

Each takes a different response. Generally I believe in building students up to being able to do anything, with reasonable modifications for inherent problems (like a bad arm). But if they simply refuse, without any sort of justification... That's a dead end. That might be enough of a dead end that they have to go their own way.

 

[theletch1]

I think we are talking about two different animals here. If a student CAN'T do a move, but is willing to work and do everything else they can. Then I would think some extra work and maybe one-on-one would help find either the development of the skill needed, or an acceptable alternative.

If the student WON'T do the move, well it may just be time to explain the simple facts of life. Do it, or don't expect to advance beyond where they are right now.

There is a huge difference in my book between can't and won't. Can't is something you can work on.

I don't generally post "what he said" posts but in this case I just can't say it any better than that.

 

[Laurentkd]

The only thing we have run in to like that is jumping. Some of our older students (by older I just mean about 40+) don't want to jump because of knee problems, so when it comes to a jump in a form or a kick, they just step. It doesn't really change the technique, and they can still teach it as a jump, it just modifies it enough that they can come back in and train the next day, instead of staying home nursing a sore knee.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Some of our older students (by older I just mean about 40+) don't want to jump because of knee problems,

OLDER!!!! 40+!!! :angry: what do you MEAN OLDER!?!?!? :flammad:

Just kidding, sorry couldn't resist since I am, I guess.... OLDER :uhyeah:

 

[redfang]

I cut my hand years ago and as a result the little finger on that hand doesn't bend on its own. Thus, i have a lot of trouble with half-fist strikes. Any technique or form with a right hand half fist I have to modify to a spear hand or punch.(The finger bends, i just have to pull it down with the finger next to it.)

 

[CuongNhuka]

Teach the form. If someone wont (will not because they're stubborn or something), kick them out. If they cann't (for physical reasons), have them do the form with those moves omitted. A jump can be cut out, a roll can be made a step, and so on.

 

[exile]

OLDER!!!! 40+!!! :angry: what do you MEAN OLDER!?!?!? :flammad:

Just kidding, sorry couldn't resist since I am, I guess.... OLDER :uhyeah:

Older... but not old, XS! As long as everyone understands that, it's all fine. As I point out to anyone who will listen, the older the violin, the sweeter the sound. (It's true that they frequently point out to me that while that may be the case with violins, I'm not a violin, but I just ignore them when they do that.... :lol

I've no objection to jumping myself, apart from the fact that I think the higher and more complex jumping kicks are probably far less practical for defense than the unadorned core kicks, and I prefer kicking low (train high, but apply low, that kind of idea). But I've been lucky; I've had very few joint problems in my life. For a lot of people, though, anything involving getting air and absorbing heavy impact could be very bad. People I know are always damaging ligaments or developing fractures without doing anything out of the ordinary; actually allowing your whole body weight to come down on your leg joints from an 18 or 24 inch height, or higher, is definitely going put some people at serious risk, even among those who aren't, um, older.

 

[Flying Crane]

Interesting question, and I'll relate a personal story about my own unwillingness to embrace an aspect of one of my arts.

I've trained capoeira in the past, for a number of years. I've drifted away from it now, but for several years I literally ate, slept, and shat capoeira. I was absolutely obsessed, and I could not get enough, training 7 days a week, sometimes twice a day. At that time I was one of the senior students in our school, ranked as a Graduated Student, which is something like perhaps a shodan in another art.

But capoeira is a funny art, and it has some unusual elements to it. It's not just a physical art with techniques and movements and stuff. Music is big in capoeira, and it's not recorded music. We make our own music when we play capoeira. We have an assortment of unusual afro-brazilian instruments that make the music of capoeira, including berimbau, atabaque, pandiero, agogo, reco-reco, and others.

I loved the physical side of capoeira. I couldn't do all the most radical acrobatics, but I certainly had my portfolio of crowd-pleasers and crazy stuff. I had a solid game and I was good at it, and I had a lot of respect in our little group for my physical game.

I liked the music as well. I have a couple of berimbaus of my own, and I picked up the technique of how to play and the rhythms pretty well, and I can hold my own on the pandiero (sort of a tambourine), and the atabaque (drums), and I can make do on some of the others.

But I don't sing, and therein lies the rub.

Along with the music, we sing these songs in capoeira, and they are all done in Portuguese, which may as well be Martian for all the sense I can make of it.

now, Capoeira songs have a call and response format. I don't mind being part of the group response. I can mimick the words well enough so my voice gets lost in the crowd and nobody really knows I can't pronounce the words. But I WILL NOT lead a song. I don't understand what I am singing about, I cannot pronounce the words, and under these circumstances I actually feel it is wrong for me to sing because I am just parrotting something that is meaningless for me and I am sure I am absolutely slaughtering the language. And on top of that, I just simply do not express myself thru song, and I make no bones about it. Some people like to eat sushi as well, and that's another thing I just don't do. Sometimes we draw a line in the sand, and across that line we will not step.

OK, I know if I was a good little Braziliophile I would learn Portuguese and learn to sing, and wear hip hugging sprayed on low riders, but I'm not. It just means nothing to me, so I've made little effort in that way. Maybe that's me being lazy, but I don't really think so. I think I've just identified something for which I hold ZERO interest.

It drives my instructor crazy, but she's one of the top capoeiristas in the world. Oh well.

I knew that it was an obstacle for any advancement in rank, but I guess I just didn't care. It was just hard to justify granting further rank to me, if I was absolutely lacking in that element of capoeira, which is actually considered an important element of the art. OK, so I didn't rank any higher (there were other issues as well, she would not rank anyone any higher who has not spent time training in Brazil, and i didn't feel inclined to make that trip either). So I stalled out at that rank, but that didn't really bother me. I was still welcome to train. But she would try to get people to take a hand in the singing. Many people were receptive to that, but not me. I just clammed up and waited for it to be over. That's just me.

I'm still welcome to come and train, altho I don't anymore. She would like me to sing, of course, but I won't. And there it lies, our little stalemate...

Just thought I'd share.

 

[tshadowchaser]

A student that is physically unable to do a technique is one thing and forms and techniques can be altered to fit that student.
A student who just plain refuses to try something is another and should most likely take a look at why they are their in the first place. If that student is just having a stubborn moment or having a temper tantrum maybe they should not be in the school in the first place. If they are refusing so they get more attention maybe they need a baby sitter not a martial arts instructor.
I can accept a person saying "I am physically unable to do the technique" but for some one to just say "no I am not going to try " well they have been taught their last lesson from me until they wake up and try. I give every chance I can to those that have disabilities but have little pity on those that just want attention or refuse to try.
Better for a person who can to try and fail than never to try at all

I can not tell you how many times I have had people who where physicaly unable to do something at least try and that i respect

 

[Brian S]

Recently I was watching an MAist do a beautiful form. I complimented him in admiration, and we began a conversation. He lamented that he couldn't teach all the forms that he'd like to teach, because of one reason or another. He said that some forms have some flying moves and he has students that can't, or won't, do those kinds of moves. He said that other forms are based off of rolls (such as a forward or backward roll) and he has students that can't, or won't do that.

So, a question that I'd like to throw out to students and teachers alike...what do you do when you have someone that can't or won't perform one or two aspects of your curriculum?

Do you show them the door? Is it all or nothing?

Or do you work with them? If you work with them, how do you do it?

As others have said, it depends on the student.

If they truly have some disability and can not perform the move then there is a good reason to make adjustments.
If their problem is their attitude they will promptly be shown the door.

 

[Jai]

I've had past students that flat out refused to do things. If there is a honest to god medical reason, or they fear for personal safety ect I work with that student up to their max potential. If the student is being lazy, unwilling, along those lines then they are simply not allowed to test for rank. Sooner or later they will step up or leave.

 

[grydth]

I know a woman who rose to 4th dan in a karate style before developing problems in both feet such that she could not do all the moves as specified. She was politely shown the door.

I was at a class with my original Tai Chi sifu when a student complained he could not do a move as taught because of knee and back problems. "Well, what can you do?", he asked. The student showed his best, with limited motion. "Do that, then.", the sifu instructed and went on with the lesson.

House rules, I guess...

 

[Kacey]

I agree with the majority - as an instructor, I see a significant difference between "can't" and "won't".

Students who can't - due to injury, long-term illness, age, lack of flexibility, etc. - but who are willing to try are fine; students are individuals and should be treated as such.

Students who "won't" - who refuse for reasons not related to "can't" - those students can find another instructor.

Now, like many other things in life, there are shades of gray in everything, and there are times when "won't" is really "can't", so when a student refuses to do something, then the instructor needs to discuss with the student why s/he "won't". If it's really a "can't" that the student doesn't want to admit to, that's different - and deserves a different response - than "don't want to". "Won't", when it means don't want to/can't be bothered - that's a student I don't need.

 

[newGuy12]

As others have said, it depends on the student.

If they truly have some disability and can not perform the move then there is a good reason to make adjustments.
If their problem is their attitude they will promptly be shown the door.

Haha

Right. The SabumNeem won't ask anything of the student that shouldn't be asked. Their judgement shouldn't be questioned! If they say to do it, then they know what they are talking about!

If the Master Instructor says to do something, then Yes you will do it!

Period

 

[Brandon Fisher]

If they have physical limitations that prevent them from doing something then I am understanding. If a student won't do something I don't have any patience for it. Only health / Medical issues are excuses where it can be harmful to the person.