What's wrong with competitive Taekwondo/MA?

[Jaeimseu]

I'm hoping to go a little deeper than "WTF players don't punch to the face" or "sport does not equal self-defense" with this discussion.

What are the drawbacks of teaching MA in a competitive/sport environment?

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[RTKDCMB]

Drawbacks in what respect?

Using the art for self defence?
Using the art for competition?
Public perception?
Turning the art into a sport?
The art itself?

 

[Jaeimseu]

Drawbacks in what respect?

Using the art for self defence?
Using the art for competition?
Public perception?
Turning the art into a sport?
The art itself?

I'm thinking more from an educator's point of view. I'm not really looking to make this yet another "art vs. sport" thread, but people can take things whatever direction they like, I suppose.

I'm interested in what people think is negative about competitive sport environments as it relates to the context of martial arts instruction.

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[Earl Weiss104]

Combat sports have rules for many reason. Safety, preserve the nature of the art etc. Trasining only for sport can lead to bad habits when it comes to SD. Critics often base criticism on a misperception that the athletes only train for sport. Lets put WTF aside for a moment. Judo has certain prescribed techniques yet I never met an experienced Judoka who did not know lots of good "Illegal" techniques.

If you believe Philosophy has an important place in an MA, while sport may include certian philosophiesd like tenacity and hard work, they don't neccessarily include something like "Courtesy" (and other items) which both Funakoshi and General Choi labeled as extremely important factors of the arts they created.

So, again, is something taught only for cmpetition ignoring all else a combat sport a "Martial Art" or a "Martial Sport" . Of course there are no agreed lines of distinction. Are other disciplines taught solely for other reasons Tae Bo, Cardio Kickboxing a Martial Art ort a Martial exercise? You (generic"you" ) decide.

If your exclusive goal is competition why waste time on unrelated areas of an art?

 

[RTKDCMB]

Competition, like most things, can bring the best or the worst from the people doing it.

 

[tshadowchaser]

if it where called "Sport/ Competition Korean Foot Tag" ,the name would be more correct in saying what it is.
As a sport there are no problems as all sports have their own rules

 

[Dirty Dog6]

I'm going to second Master Weiss on this one. Living and training close to the Olympic Training Center, I see tons of people who are extremely focused on the sport side of TKD, and most seem to lose touch with the Art as a result. I've seen 2nd and 3rd Dan holders who can't effectively deliver a hand strike. Or counter one, either.
Competition is good. I absolutely love to spar. But if you combine a high level of focus on the sport and a rule set that only allows the use of a tiny fraction of the art, then I wonder if you're actually teaching or learning a Martial Art any more.

 

[wingchun100]

I'm hoping to go a little deeper than "WTF players don't punch to the face" or "sport does not equal self-defense" with this discussion.

What are the drawbacks of teaching MA in a competitive/sport environment?

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There is only one thing I can think of that isn't related to the arguments you want to avoid: if you stick to your guns and insist on teaching TKD only for sport, then you will lose those students who come to you and say, "Yeah but how do we use this for self-defense?"

 

[Dirty Dog6]

There is only one thing I can think of that isn't related to the arguments you want to avoid: if you stick to your guns and insist on teaching TKD only for sport, then you will lose those students who come to you and say, "Yeah but how do we use this for self-defense?"

There isn't anything used in sport TKD that cannot be used in self defense. A good teacher should be able to make that clear.
The problem isn't really that the sport side isn't useful in self defense, but rather that the most commonly used/best known rules only allow for a small subset of what the Art has to offer.

 

[Manny]

I'm going to second Master Weiss on this one. Living and training close to the Olympic Training Center, I see tons of people who are extremely focused on the sport side of TKD, and most seem to lose touch with the Art as a result. I've seen 2nd and 3rd Dan holders who can't effectively deliver a hand strike. Or counter one, either.
Competition is good. I absolutely love to spar. But if you combine a high level of focus on the sport and a rule set that only allows the use of a tiny fraction of the art, then I wonder if you're actually teaching or learning a Martial Art any more.

You are right is hard to see a kid in the class who can perform a well fist and deliver a good punch, not even to defend againts a punch. In the TKD dojangs thge focus is on kicks only I have knock off to the floor spaaring perners only using my arms to block their hig kicks, they simply fall down.

I dont like the way tkd people focus in only kicks and get rid of their hands and the only thing they do is to try to mail the head forgeting the powerfull kicks that can be sent to the mid section and the hard blows with their fists.

Manny

 

[Dirty Dog6]

You are right is hard to see a kid in the class who can perform a well fist and deliver a good punch, not even to defend againts a punch. In the TKD dojangs thge focus is on kicks only I have knock off to the floor spaaring perners only using my arms to block their hig kicks, they simply fall down.

I dont like the way tkd people focus in only kicks and get rid of their hands and the only thing they do is to try to mail the head forgeting the powerfull kicks that can be sent to the mid section and the hard blows with their fists.

Manny

I agree with you, Manny, but what you say certainly is not true of al TKD schools. I know ITF schools (in general) spend more time working hand techniques than most KKW schools. As does our Moo Duk Kwan school.

But yes, too many sport-oriented schools focus so heavily on the sport side that they lose touch with the rest of the Art.

 

[skribs107]

It's all opinion. Some people have different opinions regarding what you should get out of martial arts. Some people want to prove themselves in trial by combat (sport). Some want to express themselves (art). Some want to learn self defense. Some want to have a fun time getting into shape (exercise). Some want to learn discipline...well, in this case I'd say have their kids learn discipline. If you show up as an adult my opinion is either you're already disciplined enough, or you'll walk out the door when asked to step up your attitude. So you have...

Sport
Art
Defense
Exercise
Discipline

Some people think that sparring with all those pesky rules and pads doesn't teach you good defense. You'll notice a difference in stance and style between forms and sparring, so it's arguable that the art and the sport are not connected. Sport and competition are often seen as counters to the avoid-fighting and only-compare-to-yourself attitudes that are often found in discipline. Uh...there's no way to disconnect exercise from TKD sparring, but it's nice when your exercise doesn't leave you with bruises!

It's very easy to see how one aspect disconnects from any of the others within an art. It's also easy to connect the dots. Sparring is a good way to practice to-and-fro, something I don't feel most self defense teaches. The forms and the defense skills give you techniques and tell you where to apply them, but sparring is where you get actual practice against an unpredictable opponent.

So, I can see not liking sparring, but I can't see how it is anti-TKD.

 

[StudentCarl]

I wonder whether this is really about the reality that sparring type activities in general take on rules and limits (for safety or entertainment) that necessarily separate them from the realities of personal defense.

Sport TKD, sport boxing, wrestling, BJJ, MMA, etc.--all of them separate themselves from what is most direct and damaging. You can't train if you break your partner.

With that recognized, the question for me is honesty. If you're training for exercise and sport and recognize that you're not training specifically for personal defense, then okay for you. If your goal is personal defense, then all of the combat sports teach you some kind of bad habits.

I think what matters most is for instructors to be honest with people about what they do and do not teach.


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[wingchun100]

There isn't anything used in sport TKD that cannot be used in self defense. A good teacher should be able to make that clear.
The problem isn't really that the sport side isn't useful in self defense, but rather that the most commonly used/best known rules only allow for a small subset of what the Art has to offer.

What I mean is that there are certain strikes you aren't allowed to use in a tournament. If you don't practice them, you won't be any good at them when you need them.

 

[Earl Weiss104]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

With that recognized, the question for me is honesty. If you're training for exercise and sport and recognize that you're not training specifically for personal defense, then okay for you. If your goal is personal defense, then all of the combat sports teach you some kind of bad habits.

I think what matters most is for instructors to be honest with people about what they do and do not teach.


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Therein lies the crux. If you teach or train in a "Combat Sport" that does not neccessarily exclude teaching and training those techniques that fall outside the purview of the sport.

One of the drills we use is something I call "Street One Steps" Both froma Grappling or Striking attack. As opposed to formal 1 steps, the attacker just attacks with a grappling or Striking attack and defender has to parry/ evade / defend and counter with the counters being whatever works limited only by health and safety concerns.

Then again, some might say that Rhonda Rousey trains primarily if not exclusively for sport, yet outside of an ambush or facing a weapon my $ would be on her in a SD situation.

 

[Dirty Dog6]

What I mean is that there are certain strikes you aren't allowed to use in a tournament. If you don't practice them, you won't be any good at them when you need them.

And therein lies one difference between a martial art and a martial sport. I practice and teach lots of things that are not allowed in a sport context. I suspect most of the teachers here do the same.

 

[paitingman]

I wouldn't say these are necessarily problems or "whats wrong" with it, but here are two generalizations.

1. Martial Arts may focus on personal growth, while competition focuses more on winning.

2. One comes from/promotes an Eastern philosophy, while the other may seem very Western.

 

[Thousand Kicks]

One of the issues I see as a sport competitor is the rather narrow focus on kicks. Or maybe I should say competitors are only taught what will score not necessarily what is allowed and effective. When people say the sport TKD people don't know how to throw an effective punch or defend against a punch, I say some practicioners have tunnel vision.

Punching is allowed in KKW TKD, just not to the face. Typically only straight punches score points, but you can throw any type of punch to the body (well, I have never been warned about throwing hooks or uppercuts, maybe they are not allowed). I will also admit that scoring with punches can be frustrating depending on the tournament. However, they are allowed and they are effective. I have never understood why competitors only use half the tools they have available to them.

 

[Dirty Dog6]

One of the issues I see as a sport competitor is the rather narrow focus on kicks. Or maybe I should say competitors are only taught what will score not necessarily what is allowed and effective. When people say the sport TKD people don't know how to throw an effective punch or defend against a punch, I say some practicioners have tunnel vision.

Punching is allowed in KKW TKD, just not to the face. Typically only straight punches score points, but you can throw any type of punch to the body (well, I have never been warned about throwing hooks or uppercuts, maybe they are not allowed). I will also admit that scoring with punches can be frustrating depending on the tournament. However, they are allowed and they are effective. I have never understood why competitors only use half the tools they have available to them.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say they are not used because under the current system it is extremely difficult to score with punches. You can throw them, sure. But scoring is another issue entirely.

 

[TrueJim]

I wonder whether this is really about the reality that sparring type activities in general take on rules and limits (for safety or entertainment) that necessarily separate them from the realities of personal defense.

Sport TKD, sport boxing, wrestling, BJJ, MMA, etc.--all of them separate themselves from what is most direct and damaging. You can't train if you break your partner.

If you're training for exercise and sport and recognize that you're not training specifically for personal defense, then okay for you. If your goal is personal defense, then all of the combat sports teach you some kind of bad habits.

Personally, I think the analogy with boxing is a good one. Boxing doesn't allow kicks; does that mean that learning boxing is irrelevant to learning self-defense? I wouldn't think so. I would think somebody who trains in boxing can probably defend themselves better than somebody who doesn't train in anything at all. Likewise, somebody who trains in sport taekwondo can probably defend themselves better than somebody who doesn't train in anything at all.

So then, it seems to me, the question becomes this: as you go around looking at martial arts, trying to decide which one to study, are you going to just pick the one that's best for self-defense? If so, that's fine, but there are other reasons to study martial arts too (sport, exercise, recreation, hobby, family activity, etc.)