What the hell is Enlightenment!?

[TieXiongJi]

I am not convinced that you need to find the start of any particular path.

A path may get you there. But likewise, no path may get you there too. And the BEST path may not get you there, even if your friend got there on that path.

A real conundrum

 

[hoshin1600]

I am not convinced that you need to find the start of any particular path.

A path may get you there. But likewise, no path may get you there too. And the BEST path may not get you there, even if your friend got there on that path.

depends on how you define enlightenment. you could ask Neil Degrass Tyson to enlighten you on the science of the cosmos, but by the definition we are using here enlightenment was the experience of a guy named Siddhartha Gautama and he basically said this is what i have experienced and this is how i did it, you can do it too if you do XYZ. so you follow the map and sometimes you get there. but people get there much less often if you just roam about aimlessly.

the Buddhist concepts seem very negative.

how are the Buddhist concepts negative to you?

 

[Flying Crane]

A real conundrum

It is.

I don't think it can really be mapped or explained in straight-forward terms. It is something that some people simply come to understand thru their life experiences and perhaps their own personality contributes.

 

[Flying Crane]

depends on how you define enlightenment. you could ask Neil Degrass Tyson to enlighten you on the science of the cosmos, but by the definition we are using here enlightenment was the experience of a guy named Siddhartha Gautama and he basically said this is what i have experienced and this is how i did it, you can do it too if you do XYZ. so you follow the map and sometimes you get there. but people get there much less often if you just roam about aimlessly.



how are the Buddhist concepts negative to you?

Sure, I've been reading a bit of Tyson lately, understanding the cosmos is enlightening in its way. Good stuff!

 

[Touch Of Death]

So enlightenment is a matter of perspective?

Yes, when your conclusions agree with mine, that is a light. When you disagree, it means you better hit the dollar store for another light bulb.

 

[hoshin1600]

I should add that enlightenment is not the goal for the practice. It may happen but it's just another part of the process. I would say getting rid of all dualistic thought and ripping it out at the root is the goal.
It's best not to have a goal and just sit

 

[KangTsai]

Enlightenment is death. *Party horn noise*

 

[Buka]

A close friend of mine is Buddhist. Not your average guy who suddenly becomes a Buddhist, he spent seven years of his life in a Buddhist Monastery (is that the right word?) in Japan for seven years. So I e-mailed him, asked him how he would define "enlightenment".

His immediate response was En-lighten-ment: "to lighten up" ;-)"

I laughed and asked if it could actually be defined. His response was -

not sure about defining it, but here are some possible signs:

12 Signs of a Spiritual Awakening

An increased tendency to let things happen rather than make them happen.

Frequent attacks of smiling.

Feelings of being connected with others and nature.

Frequent overwhelming episodes of appreciation.

A tendency to think and act spontaneously rather than from fears based on past experience.

An unmistakable ability to enjoy each moment.

A loss of ability to worry.

A loss of interest in conflict.

A loss of interest in interpreting the actions of others.

A loss of interest in judging others.

A loss of interest in judging self.

Gaining the ability to love without expecting anything in return.

I think he might be on to something there.

 

[hoshin1600]

A close friend of mine is Buddhist. Not your average guy who suddenly becomes a Buddhist, he spent seven years of his life in a Buddhist Monastery (is that the right word?) in Japan for seven years. So I e-mailed him, asked him how he would define "enlightenment".

His immediate response was En-lighten-ment: "to lighten up" ;-)"

I laughed and asked if it could actually be defined. His response was -

not sure about defining it, but here are some possible signs:

12 Signs of a Spiritual Awakening

An increased tendency to let things happen rather than make them happen.

Frequent attacks of smiling.

Feelings of being connected with others and nature.

Frequent overwhelming episodes of appreciation.

A tendency to think and act spontaneously rather than from fears based on past experience.

An unmistakable ability to enjoy each moment.

A loss of ability to worry.

A loss of interest in conflict.

A loss of interest in interpreting the actions of others.

A loss of interest in judging others.

A loss of interest in judging self.

Gaining the ability to love without expecting anything in return.

I think he might be on to something there.

Brilliant.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok. Then how would you explain it to another person? What good is an idea trapped inside your head?

Enlightenment is internal. I think it cannot be explained to another without some shared enlightenment. By that, I mean that there is not one enlightenment, but many areas in which one can be enlightened. If you share an area with someone (both having been enlightened in that area), then you have a common language of enlightenment from which to discuss the topic. If two people both understand enlightenment in many areas, they may be able to discuss it without a single shared area of enlightenment.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So enlightenment is a matter of perspective?

Indeed.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No, I feel like you won't even attempt to answer the question and you are trolling me with your responses.
We can have a conversation or not. So, ttyl.

Your lack of patience with FC's answer is part of your path. It's an oblique approach to get you to look at yourself.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

More understanding of a concept through thoughtful discussion, sensible logic, find the fundamental truth of the matter. You know, how we investigate anything.

IMO, enlightenment and investigation are at cross purposes. You can seek both, but not in the same moment.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

How would you eat the deer without hunting first?

You kill it to eat it. Hunting enlightenment may kill it, too.

(Sounds cool, anyway.)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So you are saying Enlightenment is something to discover, but only with the right teacher.

Who taught you about Enlightenment? Did you ever feel like you found enlightenment? If yes, how long did it take? Any notes on the path you took?

I don't agree that only by a teacher can one find enlightenment. Some stumble upon it. Some find it through experience. Some find it through earnest meditation. Some through a teacher. The path is too individual to be predicted - it is only clear after the fact. None, that I know of, finds it through intellect.

 

[oftheherd1]

Patience is a sliding scale. I am much more patient with beginners than an advanced student.
When I am trying to understand truth, or become enlightened about a topic, I have to discuss the topic. Discussing Enlightenment and the process is more important than finding it then quitting. Just asking your opinion on the matter. Saying, "I would say that if you think you should be having elaborate conversations about it, then you haven't found it." can be applied to any topic which you don't understand and have no path to understanding.

For you perhaps. Are you sure it is so for everyone?

I would suggest you think that through some more.

 

[oftheherd1]

I don't agree that only by a teacher can one find enlightenment. Some stumble upon it. Some find it through experience. Some find it through earnest meditation. Some through a teacher. The path is too individual to be predicted - it is only clear after the fact. None, that I know of, finds it through intellect.

First, I am not sure what enlightenment is. I think the question has to be asked in a context. But I suspect it is related to Gi.

If a student asks me to teach him how to acquire and use Gi, what can I say? I can only answer I can show him how I think I learned it, and that it probably isn't as mystical as some would like to think it is. But I don't think there is any way I can teach how to acquire and use Gi.

I may be able to guide, or lead, but never teach. I think it is an individual path/thing. I also think it is impossible to explain even what it may be unless I am talking to someone else who has acquired it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

First, I am not sure what enlightenment is. I think the question has to be asked in a context. But I suspect it is related to Gi.

If a student asks me to teach him how to acquire and use Gi, what can I say? I can only answer I can show him how I think I learned it, and that it probably isn't as mystical as some would like to think it is. But I don't think there is any way I can teach how to acquire and use Gi.

I may be able to guide, or lead, but never teach. I think it is an individual path/thing. I also think it is impossible to explain even what it may be unless I am talking to someone else who has acquired it.

I assume "Gi" is an alternate romanization of "Ki". (Otherwise, I assume you're talking about learning to use your uniform.)

And I agree. I could try defining enlightenment, and someone here would have a different defintion. I see no reason why both couldn't be accurate, because it's an experience, an internal thing. As such, it bears a different definition by each person, whether they've experienced it or not.

While I can teach a person to use what I refer to as "Ki", I also know that some of the things that were absolute light-igniters for me prove to be no help to them. Some people do it naturally, and others struggle for years with the concept. I'd say that's a reasonable analogy for enlightenment.

 

[oftheherd1]

I assume "Gi" is an alternate romanization of "Ki". (Otherwise, I assume you're talking about learning to use your uniform.)

And I agree. I could try defining enlightenment, and someone here would have a different defintion. I see no reason why both couldn't be accurate, because it's an experience, an internal thing. As such, it bears a different definition by each person, whether they've experienced it or not.

While I can teach a person to use what I refer to as "Ki", I also know that some of the things that were absolute light-igniters for me prove to be no help to them. Some people do it naturally, and others struggle for years with the concept. I'd say that's a reasonable analogy for enlightenment.

Nope, I wasn't referring to the uniform. I have seen it with both spellings. Pronounced, it sounds to me more like our English 'G' sound than our hard 'K' sound. But I guess that is just me. Regardless, this is the second or third time I have been called to task on this. Maybe I just need to start using Ki instead of Gi here on MT.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I have no idea what enlightenment is. I only know about the Path, and only that in a very, very, limited way.

Personally, I would be wary of anyone who claimed to have achieved enlightenment.

"If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him."