What is taekwondo (the term, not the art) to you?

[Daniel Sullivan]

With all of the lively discussions, I thought it might be helpful to get people's perspective on the term, taekwondo.

How do you see the term? Do you see it as a very specific art tied to a specific organization and lineage? For example, (insert name of org) taekwondo defines the art and sport and all the rest are really different arts.

Or do you see taekwondo as being an art exclusive to a group of organizations teaching a mostly similar art but with unique forms and sparring rules?

Or do you see the term as being similar to 'karate', which is a broad category that includes Japanese and Korean ryu, some of which bear little resemblence to one another? In other words, do you see taekwondo as encompassing Kukkiwon, Chang Hon, Songam, Ho-am, and a whole host of independent kwans?

Or something else entirely?

Not looking for a 'correct' answer, but to see different perspectives on the subjects.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

With all of the lively discussions, I thought it might be helpful to get people's perspective on the term, taekwondo.

How do you see the term? Do you see it as a very specific art tied to a specific organization and lineage? For example, (insert name of org) taekwondo defines the art and sport and all the rest are really different arts.

Or do you see taekwondo as being an art exclusive to a group of organizations teaching a mostly similar art but with unique forms and sparring rules?

Or do you see the term as being similar to 'karate', which is a broad category that includes Japanese and Korean ryu, some of which bear little resemblence to one another? In other words, do you see taekwondo as encompassing Kukkiwon, Chang Hon, Songam, Ho-am, and a whole host of independent kwans?

Not looking for a 'correct' answer, but to see different perspectives on the subjects.

Daniel

Your third option seems the most relevant definition to me. I believe TKD is a form of Korean hard-style martial arts with an emphasis on kicking as a tactical solution, although certainly it has hand striking and some locks and throws as well. I also acknowledge that there are many different sub-styles of TKD and the trend is not stopping any time soon.

Terms like ITF or Kukkiwon already evoke certain imagery in my head similar to what the terms like Shotokan or Goju do for people in karate.

 

[Manny]

For me, these days TKD is more a sport, a good one indeed, TKD is a sport that allows his members to stay in shape in a healthy way and is WTF/Olimpic sparring.

I am of the old school who feels TKD is more than that and definetively love Classic TKD and I am speaking of the TKD of the 1970-1980's maybe 1990's too where at least in my country the Kwans have a meaning and the WTF was not as huge as today.

But remember I am an old TKD practicioner maybe too enamored of the Clasic TKD and Spport TKD does not mean so much to me.

Manny

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Good question with no real easy answer, as it is a complex situation.
I would say that for me, my TKD or Taekwon-Do is a Korean martial art of self defence. It is a consolidation or combination of fighting arts available at the time in Korea to those in the military that developed this new hybrid system of self defence.

Now the TKD the world has come to know, Taekwondo to me is a Korean martial sport that was so successful that it has attained official Olympic sport status. However not all, in fact probably a minority advertise & or train it only as a sport. I think most would still see it & train it as a martial art, that has a sport aspect.

Tae Kwon Do was also a term that seems to have 1st been offered as an umbrella term for Korean martial arts. TKD has been used as an umbrella term by many. I see no problem with that persepctive, or any of the other 2 for that matter. I however personally view TKD as a term to describe a specific Korean martial art for self defence. I also acknowledge that the art may be trained differently with numerous aspects with varying emphasis or focus according to individual settings.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Personally, I view taekwondo as not quite a full umbrella term the way that Karate is, but close.

I see it as a hybrid art with a sportive aspect. As a general rule, Kukki and Chang Hon are the defining systems, with the ATA being an adjunct. Most of the independentents fall along the lines of Kukki derived or Chang Hon derived. I would even go so far as to say that most of the independents are Chang Hon derived, though I could certainly be wrong.

I see forms and lineage as the defining factor: Taegeuk, Palgwe, and Chang Hon forms are all taekwondo forms. Schools practicing taekwondo that have developed their own set of forms should be able to trace their lineage back to either Kukki taekwondo or Chang Hon taekwondo in order for me to really consider them to be taekwondo.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

I see it as a hybrid art with a sportive aspect. As a general rule, Kukki and Chang Hon are the defining systems, with the ATA being an adjunct. Most of the independentents fall along the lines of Kukki derived or Chang Hon derived. I would even go so far as to say that most of the independents are Chang Hon derived, though I could certainly be wrong.

What does Chang Hon derived mean to you? Simply that they use the Choi forms, albeit they likely do not perform the patterns to General Choi's specifications? If that is the definition, I agree that most independents are "Chang Hon derived".

On the other hand, I think most independents are very much influenced by Shotokan karate and I don't mean through the General Choi connection. I think there are lots TKD instructors in America that learned during the fifties/sixties/seventies picked up a lot of informal theory from their karate peers during this time and they passed this down to their students today. In actual practice, these independents do a lot of things that would look quite similar in a karate dojo.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Your third option seems the most relevant definition to me. I believe TKD is a form of Korean hard-style martial arts with an emphasis on kicking as a tactical solution, although certainly it has hand striking and some locks and throws as well. I also acknowledge that there are many different sub-styles of TKD and the trend is not stopping any time soon.

Terms like ITF or Kukkiwon already evoke certain imagery in my head similar to what the terms like Shotokan or Goju do for people in karate.

I couldn't've said it better!

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Personally, I view taekwondo as not quite a full umbrella term the way that Karate is, but close.

I see it as a hybrid art with a sportive aspect. As a general rule, Kukki and Chang Hon are the defining systems, with the ATA being an adjunct. Most of the independentents fall along the lines of Kukki derived or Chang Hon derived. I would even go so far as to say that most of the independents are Chang Hon derived, though I could certainly be wrong.

I see forms and lineage as the defining factor: Taegeuk, Palgwe, and Chang Hon forms are all taekwondo forms. Schools practicing taekwondo that have developed their own set of forms should be able to trace their lineage back to either Kukki taekwondo or Chang Hon taekwondo in order for me to really consider them to be taekwondo.

Daniel

I lie somewhere in a fourth category, since I don't practice Taegeuk, Palgwe, or Chang Hon forms.. . I practice the Pyung Ahn forms, Bassai, Naihanchi forms, Chinto, Kang Song Kun, etc.. . I suppose it is because my lineage split before many of the new forms became common place.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

What does Chang Hon derived mean to you? Simply that they use the Choi forms, albeit they likely do not perform the patterns to General Choi's specifications? If that is the definition, I agree that most independents are "Chang Hon derived".

Yes, that is what I mean.

Just to make it clear, I don't have a hard line of 'this is taekwondo because of.... and this isn't because of ...." Those are the general things that I use to identify 'Taekwondo' in my mind. However, I would never argue that someone who doesn't adhere to my mentality is not practicing taekwondo.

On the other hand, I think most independents are very much influenced by Shotokan karate and I don't mean through the General Choi connection. I think there are lots TKD instructors in America that learned during the fifties/sixties/seventies picked up a lot of informal theory from their karate peers during this time and they passed this down to their students today. In actual practice, these independents do a lot of things that would look quite similar in a karate dojo.

Again, yes.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

Yes, that is what I mean.

The Choi forms are the first open source 'Korean' forms available in TKD. I know a local ATA assistant instructor who is leaving the group because he wants to start his own school yet he finds the licensing terms onerous. He's going back into ATA history and pulling out the Choi forms.

 

[dancingalone]

I lie somewhere in a fourth category, since I don't practice Taegeuk, Palgwe, or Chang Hon forms.. . I practice the Pyung Ahn forms, Bassai, Naihanchi forms, Chinto, Kang Song Kun, etc.. . I suppose it is because my lineage split before many of the new forms became common place.

Benjamin, you have the best of both worlds. All the awesome koolness of Korean kicking yet you can still share bunkai on an almost 100% basis with karate-ka!

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Benjamin, you have the best of both worlds. All the awesome koolness of Korean kicking yet you can still share bunkai on an almost 100% basis with karate-ka!

Of course I am biased, but I am in full agreement with you Dancing.. . In my experience, training with karate-kas (shorin-ryu, shorei-ryu, shotokan, yoshikai, and isshinryu) has always had an easy transition when it comes to techs and bunkai. I would imagine that the difference between the TKD that I practice and various styles of karate is not much more of a stretch than the differences between some of the different ryus themselves.

 

[Earl Weiss]

....................... I think there are lots TKD instructors in America that learned during the fifties/sixties/seventies picked up a lot of informal theory from their karate peers during this time and they passed this down to their students today. In actual practice, these independents do a lot of things that would look quite similar in a karate dojo.

I think there are few American TKD instructors who learned TKD in the 1950's or 1960's. Of course it might depend on how you define TKD. I think Jhoon Rhee was the first person to call what he was doing TKD in America and That was in the 1960's. Certainly he had some noteable students who spread TKD but it realy wasn't until the late 1960's or 1970's that there was a significant amount of TKD Instructors in the USA.

 

[dancingalone]

I think there are few American TKD instructors who learned TKD in the 1950's or 1960's. Of course it might depend on how you define TKD. I think Jhoon Rhee was the first person to call what he was doing TKD in America and That was in the 1960's. Certainly he had some noteable students who spread TKD but it realy wasn't until the late 1960's or 1970's that there was a significant amount of TKD Instructors in the USA.

Oh, I was thinking of the usual all-time greats like Jack Hwang or Henry Cho or Jhoon Rhee or Duk Song Son or Hwang Kee (even though he didn't use the TKD name himself) and their American students who they trained during this time.

And yep, I think we've established that my definition of TKD is very liberal. Pretty anyone who wants to call themselves TKD can in my book if they have a KMA heritage.

 

[andyjeffries]

Personally I would consider Taekwondo to be that as defined by the Kukkiwon. I consider there to be small offshoots with the same name (often prefixed or written differently) but when someone says to me Taekwondo, I immediately think of Kukkiwon-standard Taekwondo.

I think of Kukki-Taekwondoin as a global family, where I immediately feel trust in my brothers and sisters (unless they prove otherwise) and mutual respect.

Within the wider community of Kukki-Taekwondo and other Tae Kwon Do styles (spaced to avoid ambiguity) I feel there is a common history, but I don't consider them really the same art, any more than I'd consider Taekwondo close to various Karate styles.

I have respect/friendliness to all martial artists, but feel closer naturally to Kukki-Taekwondoin.

Maybe that's controversial, unusual, or maybe it's just that most of my communication has been with Kukki-Taekwondoin or other martial arts, I haven't had that much exposure to non-Kukkiwon Taekwondo. Maybe my feelings in time will change.

My feelings are made clear though by the recent conversation about would we re-open the ITF -> Kukkiwon Dan Assimilation Program - my feeling is no, the arts are too different for us to cross-grade without working our way up (albeit faster than a non-martial artist).

 

[dancingalone]

Personally I would consider Taekwondo to be that as defined by the Kukkiwon. I consider there to be small offshoots with the same name (often prefixed or written differently) but when someone says to me Taekwondo, I immediately think of Kukkiwon-standard Taekwondo.

Isn't tae kwon do pronounced the same whether it is spelled tae kwon do or taekwondo or Taekwon-Do?

Your story is a bit like thinking immediately of a Peugeot when someone says 'car' even though there are also Audi, Ford, Honda, Toyota, etc. Nothing wrong with that on a personal basis, however.

 

[Gorilla]

Before I was involved in TKD Pre-2000. I perceived TKD as Korean Martial Art. I saw a Korean Kid my age use it to defend himself outside of a bar in the early 1980's. I was very impressed because this relatively small guy used TKD to basically take the head off a drunken redneck. I later came to know it as a spin-hook kick! It was beautiful and I thought of TKD as deadly!

After my son and daughter became involved I saw it as a multi-faceted Martial Art with a Sport aspect that I did not know existed until my kids became involved.

I think that it is much like religion (Kukkiwon tkd). It started pure but because of human involvement it became totally fragmented each off-shoot thinks that it is the one true TKD.

 

[puunui]

On the other hand, I think most independents are very much influenced by Shotokan karate and I don't mean through the General Choi connection. I think there are lots TKD instructors in America that learned during the fifties/sixties/seventies picked up a lot of informal theory from their karate peers during this time and they passed this down to their students today. In actual practice, these independents do a lot of things that would look quite similar in a karate dojo.

There are good books on Shotokan which explain in detail the technical requirements of the art. Nakayama Sensei's books in particular, although I have a sneaking suspicion the Taekwondo practitioners in the 60's all have a copy of Nishiyama Sensei's Karate book. I want to say that I saw Nakayama Sensei and Nishiyama Sensei's books at the Kukkiwon.

The process was no doubt helped along with all of the Korean Karate signs and the fact that karate practitioners were quick to state that Taekwondo or Tang Soo Do was, Korean Karate. It's an easy logical jump to conclude that what you saw in the Shotokan books is how 60's Taekwondo is supposed to be practiced.

 

[puunui]

I think there are few American TKD instructors who learned TKD in the 1950's or 1960's. Of course it might depend on how you define TKD. I think Jhoon Rhee was the first person to call what he was doing TKD in America and That was in the 1960's. Certainly he had some noteable students who spread TKD but it realy wasn't until the late 1960's or 1970's that there was a significant amount of TKD Instructors in the USA.

There were some American instructors, especially if you include the Moo Duk Kwan people who learned while stationed in Korea. GM Chuck Norris is one. He has a Kukkiwon 6th Dan from the 1970's.

 

[dancingalone]

I think that it is much like religion (Kukkiwon tkd). It started pure but because of human involvement it became totally fragmented each off-shoot thinks that it is the one true TKD.

Personally I would consider Taekwondo to be that as defined by the Kukkiwon. I consider there to be small offshoots with the same name (often prefixed or written differently) but when someone says to me Taekwondo, I immediately think of Kukkiwon-standard Taekwondo.

..

Within the wider community of Kukki-Taekwondo and other Tae Kwon Do styles (spaced to avoid ambiguity) I feel there is a common history, but I don't consider them really the same art, any more than I'd consider Taekwondo close to various Karate styles.

Something to remember is that Kukki TKD is itself a recent invention or evolution. The forms were designed in the seventies and it is clear from observing various things like ladder or hogu drills that these are all general hallmarks that distinguish KKW from arguably older styles of TKD.

I do not believe KKW TKD has a monopoly on the name and surely 'pure' or 'true' would be unlikely adjectives to use with any martial art including tae kwon do.