What is it with you people and "formal instruction"?

[SwordSoulSteve]

I hate to sound so condescending, but it seems to me that those with "formal instruction" do not hesitate to condescend those without it. You are not automatically more knowledgable, more skilled, or more fit to teach others than me just because you learned from someone else. Get over it.

 

[Blindside]

I hate to sound so condescending, but it seems to me that those with "formal instruction" do not hesitate to condescend those without it. You are not automatically more knowledgable, more skilled, or more fit to teach others than me just because you learned from someone else. Get over it.

Care to give us your background in swordsmanship so we can get an idea of your knowledge, skill, or fitness to teach?

Lamont

 

[arnisador]

I hate to sound so condescending, but it seems to me that those with "formal instruction" do not hesitate to condescend those without it. You are not automatically more knowledgable, more skilled, or more fit to teach others than me just because you learned from someone else.

Well, you might be more knowledgeable--after all, knowledge is created or transmitted, but you can only generate so much in one lifetime (hence the value of training).

But yes, you might be a great untrained fighter. There's one in every bar. It's just much less likely--including that it would be hard for you to know how good you are if you aren't at a school where you can test yourself against many opponents.

 

[SwordSoulSteve]

Well, I would like to say that I certainly do not hold myself in the highest regard as a swordsman and have no intention of claiming to be better than anyone.
As far as my background, I am a self taught (though that sounds a bit stupid when phrased as such) swordsman of about three years of experience. I would certainly not consider myself worthy of teaching my style to anyone for a minimum of another five years or so,if at all, and not until after I have been able to compare my technique to conventional ones that have been passed down for generations.
As far as I'm concerned, however, these issues are not the point. I merely wish to point out that a self educated martialist/artist CAN be just as good in these points(fitness to teach and such) as one who has a master or is educated somehow, as many believe that formal instruction is the ONLY way to become skilled with with a sword and not kill yourself in the process or be turned into an example in some way of why one should have learned from an expert.

 

[SwordSoulSteve]

Oh yea, and thanks for being open-minded. I appreciate it. Please note too that I mean no disrespect towards those who are taught their art. I hold such students of their craft in the highest of regard, generally. I'm merely frustrated at the generalization I see all too often coming from such pupils.

 

[Blindside]

Ok, then please cite an example of where a self-taught swordsman has excelled in his chosen field. (Don't use Musashi, see the other thread for the reasons why.) As an example, any fencer who has medaled in the Olympics who didn't have a classical fencing coach.

Actually, name five and we may have a good discussion.

Lamont

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Well, I would like to say that I certainly do not hold myself in the highest regard as a swordsman and have no intention of claiming to be better than anyone.

1.As far as my background, I am a self taught (though that sounds a bit stupid when phrased as such) swordsman of about three years of experience. I would certainly not consider myself worthy of teaching my style to anyone for a minimum of another five years or so,if at all, and not until after I have been able to compare my technique to conventional ones that have been passed down for generations.
As far as I'm concerned, however, these issues are not the point.

2.I merely wish to point out that a self educated martialist/artist CAN be just as good in these points(fitness to teach and such) as one who has a master or is educated somehow, as many believe that formal instruction is the ONLY way to become skilled with with a sword and not kill yourself in the process or be turned into an example in some way of why one should have learned from an expert.

1. one can only learn so much "technique" and "practical" application without a teacher or "master"
heck.....ive had friends that thought they learned martial arts out of karate and ninja mags for years, and when they finally had the "stuff" shown to them for real.....they found out they didnt know squat.
many systems that have been passed down for generations have a reason behind their longevity.........they worked. flinging around a bladed weapon for 5 years will give you no discernable skill from that of a beginner. your grip would be wrong, your ability to maneuver and your sense of timing and distance would be minimal at best. thats not to say there arent gifted natural tacticians out there......but they're rare. who are you going to compare your technique with? a master? or another beginning student?

2.a self educated martial artist might become good.......but again, without instruction....how will you know? people learn from experts for a reason......they're experts!
i just hope we dont read about the guy that threw his sword in the air and had it come down and slice his neck open.

 

[SwordSoulSteve]

1: I admit I actually can site no evidence of self taught martialists who excelled at their art and were of public interest. I hope, if possible, to one day become an example.
2: I would also like to like to compete in some way against students of swordsmanship of many different styles and many different skill levels. What could be more effective than trying against everyone?
3: I also would hope not to hear about the guy who threw his sword in the air and sliced his neck open, though I'm hoping that a person trying to teaching themself would attempt to do so with a bit more common sense than that. Perhaps not all experts have the sense not to throw their swords in the air, but luckily, I do.
4: Just for the sake of wondering, has anyone tried to compete using their form of swordsmanship against someone elses? I mean, if you're an expert, then you should have no problem whatsoever in combat against an opponent working on totally different set of guidelines for combat than yourself. While "experts" of swordsmanship today may indeed have a thorough understanding of their own chosen weapon, how will they fare against an opposing weapon or style?
By the same token that you may consider me an amateur for not learning from an expert, I may consider you an amateur for not learning for yourself.

 

[SwordSoulSteve]

One other thing. If someone can tell me how much Musashi learned from his father, and how skilled his father was with a sword, then I may abandon the argument that he was an example of a self taught swordsman of great skill. But if all you have to offer is that he was taught the "basics" by his father, then i could quite easily reply that you could learn the basics by fighting a friend with a stick in your back yard for a half an hour.

 

[Tgace]

Im a self taught brain surgeon with a sub specialty in OBGYN....

 

[Blindside]

But if all you have to offer is that he was taught the "basics" by his father, then i could quite easily reply that you could learn the basics by fighting a friend with a stick in your back yard for a half an hour.

And you would be wrong....

Lamont

 

[SwordSoulSteve]

here we go again.....I'm the best artist in the world! I made 5 billion dollars from an old, dirty, wrinkled curtain presented as a piece of art. And guess what! No one ever taught me a thing about art.

 

[Blindside]

I have no idea what you were referring to.

Define the basics of swordsmanship that can be taught in a half hour "by fighting a friend with a stick."

Lamont

 

[SwordSoulSteve]

Oi.... it seems the only possible way to get any believers would be to prove my point on a physical level. I only wish I could right this very moment. Sadly, or at least, sadly for me, I can't. And I may never be able to. I will try my best, however, regardless.

 

[SwordSoulSteve]

If it makes it any easier, for you, BlindSide, One could give every able person in a crowded room a sword, and simply fight them to the death to learn the basics. If one should say that this would not be a manner by which to learn the basics, then one has no concept of what the basics are.

 

[Blindside]

Aw, give us a hint, what are your basics?

Stance, footwork, grip, posture, wards/gaurds, parries, blocks, combat structure, etc.

Lamont

 

[Andrew Green]

With a ciritcal mind and good test subjects you can teach yourself to be quite good at a sport.

Xtreme sports are a good example of this. Kids with no coaches are doing some amazing things on skateboards, bikes, roller blades and surf boards all over the world.

To get good at martial arts you need to spar, and spar lots, against lots of people. and not always against beginners.

I do believe that people could reach a fairly high level in the martial arts through self-teaching IF:

- There was a group of them training and improving together, helping each other along.

- They approached it critically, actually thought hard about what they where doing and why. Not just spar for 2 hours then go home.

- They used other resources that are available. Books, videos, instructional fight videos, etc.

- Trained with other groups, even if it was only occasionally. As much as competing once or twice a year, or occasionally getting together with other groups that are competitive and sparring, Exchanging ideas, etc.

With those things in place there are people that could get quite far on there own. But having more then one generation of athletes is a plus. Each new generation learns from the previous and continues on that path. Look at any new sport. In the beginning it was self-trained people. As they passed there peak they taught new people, giving the new group a head start. That group was then able to get farther...

 

[Andrew Green]

Define the basics of swordsmanship that can be taught in a half hour "by fighting a friend with a stick."

A half hour of hard stick fighting will teach you more of relevant basics then a month of taught solo drills...

Toss someone in that knows what they are doing to coach you and you've got a even better deal

 

[SwordSoulSteve]

Blindside, tell me, what are the basics of each individual sword art known to the world?

 

[Blindside]

A half hour of hard stick fighting will teach you more of relevant basics then a month of taught solo drills...

Toss someone in that knows what they are doing to coach you and you've got a even better deal

I agree with that.