Spreading the art II: THE REVENGE.....

[Flatlander]

This is a good thread, let's keep it up.

Either way, how do we 'spread the art' by virtue of establishing good leadership to hand the art off to when our time is up?

I think that good leadership can help us accomplish all the goals necessary to the integral survival of the art. It's about setting standards, quality maintenance, and a vision for the future.

If:

-all of those eligible to instruct are of quality, i.e. deserving of their rank, gifted in their movement, able to teach.

-there are standards in place to ensure uniformity of principles,

-there is an obvious and apparent leadership body to administer the ways of the art,

then all that is left to impede the growth or spread is the fundamental quality of the root. If it is percieved by those who pay to learn as having value, if it can be known to be effective, then it should grow organically.

I'm making an effort to keep this 'art neutral', as I think these precepts apply to just about any art, or any business, for that matter.

To specifically address your question Paul M., good leadership must be able to create a reasonable succession plan. In an earlier post, I had alluded to the value of governing councils in this matter, and my idea of a governing council is that it has the built in ability to be continuous. People get replaced by others as they retire, thus maintaining the integirity of the council's continuity, sort of like a board of directors.

Just my ideas.

 

[Grasshoppah]

I read alot of this thread, but on this thread is discipline mentioned anywere. The other thread about Mcdojo's I think it's missing discipline also. I like watching schools train, I was taught that when you visit another school you go before they begin and leave when their done. When I see a school I just pass by now, I look but most of the time I notice people standing around talking and kids running playing. The idea of a school being there is good enough for me. What they teach or do in that dojo I don't care they could do whatever they want.

 

[loki09789]

I read alot of this thread, but on this thread is discipline mentioned anywere. The other thread about Mcdojo's I think it's missing discipline also. I like watching schools train, I was taught that when you visit another school you go before they begin and leave when their done. When I see a school I just pass by now, I look but most of the time I notice people standing around talking and kids running playing. The idea of a school being there is good enough for me. What they teach or do in that dojo I don't care they could do whatever they want.

Discipline would be either a leadership trait or a class management issue IMO, what exactly is your point about discipline: is it lacking, should it be part of the traits that schools instill in students and expect of teachers/leaders (this would tie into MichTKD's point about behavior and such as well)?

 

[Grasshoppah]

If your going to spread the Martial Arts. Theirs more to then just kicks and punches, I know you all now that. What Iam saying is with a class that is trained with discipline they learn something that carries on in life. It takes discipline to achieve with out complaining. Discipline is in the mind and the mind can move things with less effort.

 

[loki09789]

If your going to spread the Martial Arts. Theirs more to then just kicks and punches, I know you all now that. What Iam saying is with a class that is trained with discipline they learn something that carries on in life. It takes discipline to achieve with out complaining. Discipline is in the mind and the mind can move things with less effort.

Agreed and well said. Discipline is one of those things that leaders have to model (lead by example) or they are not going to get it. Teachers/leaders have to instill/maintain discipline in class to make sure students are not 'killing time' or just standing around. It does translate, as long as students get a chance to see/practice that translation. That is why things like standing quietly in your schools version of 'ready' or 'attention' can be useful as one form of self discipline in action. Then, discipline is applied in a different way when students control themselves during frustating training moments (not getting a technique, dealing with a poor training partner, staying with a drill/technique even when you don't like it/understand it). Regardless of style, discipline is a good thing to focus on as a developmental goal.

Instructors need to make sure younger students and older students are aware of how to carry that over to everyday life as well though. A lot of times, instructors seem to just assume that students do see it. The one thing about learning how to teach is that you 'know' instead of assume things based on outcomes/observable behaviors (better technical skill/tactical creativity, students tell you what they actually get in their own words). I have come to the conclusion that 'common sense' isn't so common .

 

[TigerWoman]

If your going to spread the Martial Arts. Theirs more to then just kicks and punches, I know you all now that. What Iam saying is with a class that is trained with discipline they learn something that carries on in life. It takes discipline to achieve with out complaining. Discipline is in the mind and the mind can move things with less effort.

For students, discipline has to be emphasized before and during class. Discipline to do your warmups, to restrict talking, not chew gum, etc. Discipline to go to x amount of classes, discipline to work hard and not dawdle during class, discipline to work on stuff- forms, stretching outside class. Just a few.

Then there's discipline for the teacher to show up on time, or at least call. Discipline to put together somewhat of a plan for teaching not just teach the whim of the day. Discipline to try to reach/improve everyone in the class. Discipline to investigate new ways of teaching. Discipline to also keep practicing yourself to keep in condition or get better.

No discipline, no forward movement.

 

[loki09789]

Then there's discipline for the teacher to show up on time, or at least call. Discipline to put together somewhat of a plan for teaching not just teach the whim of the day. Discipline to try to reach/improve everyone in the class. Discipline to investigate new ways of teaching. Discipline to also keep practicing yourself to keep in condition or get better.

No discipline, no forward movement.

I know that some of the psychobabbly language of Ed. Psych can sound detached and not too 'people friendly' but this teacher 'self questioning sequence' is my favorite tools of planning a daily lesson, a whole unit/theme/topic or to examine my overall view of something I am passing on (whether English Language Arts, Leadership/teacher instruction or martial arts). It is simple, user friendly and to the point - and about application NOT about reinventing the wheel and getting published (which is all too common in PhD/Academic publishing circles).

What do we want them to get?
Why is it important?
How do we get them to get it?
How will we know they get it?
How do we know that THEY know they got it?

That last question is the really big one for me. It is sort of like discipline or confidence. I can get students to be disciplined, I can have all the confidence in them in the world, but the MOST important thing to me is that they are consciously and knowingly exercising SELF discipline and SELF confidence because I won't be there to tell them what to do if they really need this stuff.

I have lots of good sources if anyone is interested. Just PM/Email and I will be happy to share.

 

[TigerWoman]

I've noticed the spread/retract of our school. Not much forward movement.
Black belts eventually open branch schools after having a brief 2-3 month instruction/mentoring phase with the master. Then eventually they leave these schools after a period, don't go to class, don't teach either. There was no cohesiveness with the whole. I think they just felt left out there - just send the students in to test. If a teacher/instructor, 1st dan-3rd isn't improving by himself, no support, and doesn't have instruction himself on an ongoing process, he doesn't see the value of where he is going, can't give to his students, and then he runs out of gas.

I think there has to be alot more structure, black belt classes, teaching classes, judging for tournament-classes. But our master teaches in 5 cities during the week mostly because his black belts instructors bailed and he doen't want to lose the income. Then he builds it up until he gets a black belt to take over most of the classes. But his core program, the structure isn't there to support it.

But there is not a support structure for the masters-the leaders of the school system either. No governing body really. So we really need that, but a governing body for each style? Combining WTF, ITF, Chung Do, under one board, one set of standards/rules, but we also a plan for support-teaching seminars etc., which probably includes membership dues for the independents too. Too much ego/testosterone involved in martial arts for THAT to happen. Oh, I got it, women rule!

 

[Rich Parsons]

You could start by checking with Title 18 of the US Code, Rich. It's Federal Law, and you really couldn't go wrong if you followed that guideline... even in California.

I will investigate this.

Yet, as Tom has pointed out, no matter what the state or federal code or law sates, it is the interpretation of the individual officer on the spot that is the issue. There is no single answer that will make every officer happy, other than to not carrry.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Which DOT are you talking about, Rich. Federal or state; and if it's state DOT.
which one?

My point here, Rich; is that we can poke counted productive hole in eachother or we can get on with the meat of the thead. Stop being such a big baby.

TK

Tim,

Exactly right. You need more clarification before you can answer the questions. You need to know if it is a State test run in a Federal Park, or what ever.

As to poking each other and being not productive, that is a matter of interpretation. I agree the sky is blue. And it is if there are no clouds and the sun is out, . You have made the point that there are no absolutes, and that all models are not complete, and that is might be better to not see every new person as a fake persona, or the old people as out to get each other. I still hope, although some times I do get frustrated. It is because I am human? (* SHHHH! no cracks about that *)

 

[TigerWoman]

.

What do we want them to get?
Why is it important?
How do we get them to get it?
How will we know they get it?
How do we know that THEY know they got it?

That last question is the really big one for me. It is sort of like discipline or confidence. I can get students to be disciplined, I can have all the confidence in them in the world, but the MOST important thing to me is that they are consciously and knowingly exercising SELF discipline and SELF confidence because I won't be there to tell them what to do if they really need this stuff.

I have lots of good sources if anyone is interested. Just PM/Email and I will be happy to share.

Good stuff, Mr. Martin, particularly about, "how do we know that they know they got it". For the black belt level, teaching classes would be a forum to discuss issues. Our black belt class previously though was all one way.

Always enjoy reading your posts btw. Do you have any sources relating to teaching martial arts specifically, addressing those points?

 

[Tgace]

How do carry a knife that is legal in my state on my person and or in my car in all states without getting into trouble?

As a NY State Cop, if you asked me that on a traffic stop I would tell you: "I dont know...I do know its illegal in my state though."

 

[loki09789]

Good stuff, Mr. Martin, particularly about, "how do we know that they know they got it". For the black belt level, teaching classes would be a forum to discuss issues. Our black belt class previously though was all one way.

Always enjoy reading your posts btw. Do you have any sources relating to teaching martial arts specifically, addressing those points?

TigerWoman,
I replied via PM in keeping with the hope of not hijacking the thread.

References though is an interesting topic: What references/books/videos or what ever has anyone been directed to read or study as part of their artistic/philosophical/personal development BY YOUR INSTRUCTOR? I emphasize the last because the point is to identify ways that instructors are spreading the art not what a dedicated student does on his/her own initiative.

Most of the stuff out there that I have seen seems to fall into either philosophy/biography/technical or fitness specific to martial arts. I haven't really seen any books on the 'how to's' of martial arts instruction.

One that comes to mind for me, though I can't remember the title exactly, is a text by a Med. Doctor who explains the minimum and maximum physical damage done by specific techniques (armbar/arm break's physiological impact on the elbow joint/muscles and tendons and such). Very enlightening, and made for some really good moral practice discussion with my instructor after I returned his copy to him.

Another was the "Tao of Leadership" which was a great interp of Taoist philosophical in relation to leadership roles.

Both of those were given to me by my instructor.

 

[Flatlander]

Another was the "Tao of Leadership" which was a great interp of Taoist philosophical in relation to leadership roles.

Who wrote this, and when? That sounds like a good read.

 

[loki09789]

Who wrote this, and when? That sounds like a good read.

John Heider is the author. Easy find on Amazon. Probably still on the shelves at Media Play type stores. If not it is an easy order there too. It was a good read.

 

[Mark Lynn]

TigerWoman,
I replied via PM in keeping with the hope of not hijacking the thread.

1) References though is an interesting topic: What references/books/videos or what ever has anyone been directed to read or study as part of their artistic/philosophical/personal development BY YOUR INSTRUCTOR? I emphasize the last because the point is to identify ways that instructors are spreading the art not what a dedicated student does on his/her own initiative.

2) Most of the stuff out there that I have seen seems to fall into either philosophy/biography/technical or fitness specific to martial arts. I haven't really seen any books on the 'how to's' of martial arts instruction.

Paul

I added numbers to your post to address.

1) None really

2) Have you read "The martial Arts Coaching Manual" by David Mitchell
A and C Black Publishers (London England)

Got to head to work

mark

 

[loki09789]

Paul

I added numbers to your post to address.

1) None really

2) Have you read "The martial Arts Coaching Manual" by David Mitchell
A and C Black Publishers (London England)

Got to head to work

mark

No, I have not. I will look for it though. Is it something you would recommend?

 

[DoxN4cer]

I will investigate this.

Yet, as Tom has pointed out, no matter what the state or federal code or law sates, it is the interpretation of the individual officer on the spot that is the issue. There is no single answer that will make every officer happy, other than to not carrry.

Yep, if a cop thinks it's a weapon... it's a weapon. There's your absolute. hehehe

TK

 

[DoxN4cer]

I2) Have you read "The martial Arts Coaching Manual" by David Mitchell
A and C Black Publishers (London England)

I've got that one. It has some good points, and is worth taking the time to read.

Coaching, I might add, is different than instructing or training. The book defines each rather well.

I think I would probably classify myself more as a coach, rather than an instructor or trainer.

TK

 

[loki09789]

I've got that one. It has some good points, and is worth taking the time to read.

Coaching, I might add, is different than instructing or training. The book defines each rather well.

I think I would probably classify myself more as a coach, rather than an instructor or trainer.

TK

Is that because personal philosophy about martial arts instruction or because of th skill level of your students?

Under our shared instructor, at different phases I would say that as we progressed the 'instructor/details/technical' level of instruction changed to coach and then to peer (though he is still my senior within the association) or training partner as the needs and demands of the student instructor relationship changed because of the goals intent of the instruction.