Spreading the art II: THE REVENGE.....

[loki09789]

Seriously though, there were some good issues brought up about instruction and art that are worth continuing without distraction:

1. Integrity
2. Quality
3. Balancing divergence/innovation with preservation
4. INSTRUCTION
5. exposure/advertising/expansion.

These were topics that were common to most, all the post on the issue.

My personal issue sort of links the McDojo thread to this as well: INSTRUCTION.

We, at a certain rank/time, are asked to instruct or become instructors within our art. My frustration with the "McDojo" system is that usually somewhere in the so called instructor training there is also membership/recruitment classes.... like a bloody Bally's fitness or something. As an instructor, if you have even been formally taught a methodology, your primary purpose is to be a facilitator of learning - not a salesman.

Take into consideration the statistical chance of you really using your martial arts as a martial artist (as in applying your kicking, punching....stuff) in comparison to the statistical chance of using your teaching craft as a martial artist/instructor.... MUCH higher and a more realistic area that you can 'spread the art.' That said, I really think that quality instructional training isn't just learning/copying the instructional model that you were put through, or 'doing it the way it has always been done.' That is the equivalent to the 'one technique/one school is enough' view on instruction. Most of the strongest proclaimers of their art being a 'complete' art or that students learn 'real world self defense' don't even use any kind of simulation/scenario training (this is more than just teaching self defense techniques) in their program because they have only really learned one way to teach.

MOST of the innovation/authentic feuds you will hear about boil down to differences in instructional method and not technical/artistic difference. People don't agree on how to sequence, group or instruct techniques OR they disagree on the grading/quality of testing standards.

NOT including any personal teacher/instructor training outside of your system or systems studied, how many hours of instructor training/mentoring have you recieved? By that I mean actual "This is how to conduct yourself as an instructor", "This is how to plan a class/run a test/grade a student", or "This is how you assess your teaching ability and figure out what you did right/wrong to improve"....

This is not a hack on the untrained teachers out there (because many of you know that I am a cert. teacher). I think that there are excellent teachers in MA within their chosen school. BUT, after some of the instructonal training I have had the chance to get, I think the instructor training/learning process is too 'content' focused because we generally learn to teach 'our art' and not 'skills'. This kind of 'cultural indoctrinization' is what leads to the rivalry between teachers in schools of math, english, science... and I think it is part of the system issues in MA. I was thinking about this after talking to a fellow public school teacher who was talking about how he really understands the link between the subect areas better because he has had the chance to substitute in all of them at the schools he works at. Respect through education/understadning in action. If MA instruction was 'skills/goals' focused as opposed to 'art' focused, I think some of the rivalry/feuding might be reduced by taking advantage of athletic/coaching instructional training, ed. psych or a 'skills based' educational training format as part of the instructor training process. TKD schools have proven to be pretty successful and a lot of them have instructors who have gone to the Olympic training center in Colorado. It has probably contributed to instructional and marketing success.

 

[arnisador]

You mention being a certified teacher...it makes me think of the fact that college professors, as a rule, receive absolutely no training whatsoever in teaching their subject. (Some schools have a half-day training for TAs and some have a day or two orientation for new faculty, but more than that is rare.) The military, of course, does train its instructors. I know some martial arts or martial arts schools insist on teacher training, but many assume, as with college professors, that if you have the knowledge then you can communicate it.

 

[loki09789]

You mention being a certified teacher...it makes me think of the fact that college professors, as a rule, receive absolutely no training whatsoever in teaching their subject. (Some schools have a half-day training for TAs and some have a day or two orientation for new faculty, but more than that is rare.) The military, of course, does train its instructors. I know some martial arts or martial arts schools insist on teacher training, but many assume, as with college professors, that if you have the knowledge then you can communicate it.

Another institutional beef of mine as well. THere is a serious disconnect in logic that just because you know a subject well means that you know how to convey that subject or how to manage a class or organize that material.....

I loved taking Bible as Lit and Liguistics from a professor who was FAR more gifted on his subject than in his teaching ability. I spent more class time keeping track of how much chalk he got on his face and hands than on the lecture itself. Still learned from the homework and research, but NOT too much from the classes....

The absolute BEST college instructor I had was a former military turned college professor type.

 

[Rich Parsons]

You mention being a certified teacher...it makes me think of the fact that college professors, as a rule, receive absolutely no training whatsoever in teaching their subject. (Some schools have a half-day training for TAs and some have a day or two orientation for new faculty, but more than that is rare.) The military, of course, does train its instructors. I know some martial arts or martial arts schools insist on teacher training, but many assume, as with college professors, that if you have the knowledge then you can communicate it.

I agree here with you Arnisador. Colleges do not requrie certification of instruction training. And yet, school teachers have more training, yet I had my fair share that I and many others thought they should have been removed. Not because they were tough, but becuase of their attitudes and capability of dealing with the students.

So, even in that case I know it was not 100% successful.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Seriously though, there were some good issues brought up about instruction and art that are worth continuing without distraction:

1. Integrity
2. Quality
3. Balancing divergence/innovation with preservation
4. INSTRUCTION
5. exposure/advertising/expansion.

These were topics that were common to most, all the post on the issue.

My personal issue sort of links the McDojo thread to this as well: INSTRUCTION.

We, at a certain rank/time, are asked to instruct or become instructors within our art. My frustration with the "McDojo" system is that usually somewhere in the so called instructor training there is also membership/recruitment classes.... like a bloody Bally's fitness or something. As an instructor, if you have even been formally taught a methodology, your primary purpose is to be a facilitator of learning - not a salesman.

Take into consideration the statistical chance of you really using your martial arts as a martial artist (as in applying your kicking, punching....stuff) in comparison to the statistical chance of using your teaching craft as a martial artist/instructor.... MUCH higher and a more realistic area that you can 'spread the art.' That said, I really think that quality instructional training isn't just learning/copying the instructional model that you were put through, or 'doing it the way it has always been done.' That is the equivalent to the 'one technique/one school is enough' view on instruction. Most of the strongest proclaimers of their art being a 'complete' art or that students learn 'real world self defense' don't even use any kind of simulation/scenario training (this is more than just teaching self defense techniques) in their program because they have only really learned one way to teach.

MOST of the innovation/authentic feuds you will hear about boil down to differences in instructional method and not technical/artistic difference. People don't agree on how to sequence, group or instruct techniques OR they disagree on the grading/quality of testing standards.

NOT including any personal teacher/instructor training outside of your system or systems studied, how many hours of instructor training/mentoring have you recieved? By that I mean actual "This is how to conduct yourself as an instructor", "This is how to plan a class/run a test/grade a student", or "This is how you assess your teaching ability and figure out what you did right/wrong to improve"....

This is not a hack on the untrained teachers out there (because many of you know that I am a cert. teacher). I think that there are excellent teachers in MA within their chosen school. BUT, after some of the instructonal training I have had the chance to get, I think the instructor training/learning process is too 'content' focused because we generally learn to teach 'our art' and not 'skills'. This kind of 'cultural indoctrinization' is what leads to the rivalry between teachers in schools of math, english, science... and I think it is part of the system issues in MA. I was thinking about this after talking to a fellow public school teacher who was talking about how he really understands the link between the subect areas better because he has had the chance to substitute in all of them at the schools he works at. Respect through education/understadning in action. If MA instruction was 'skills/goals' focused as opposed to 'art' focused, I think some of the rivalry/feuding might be reduced by taking advantage of athletic/coaching instructional training, ed. psych or a 'skills based' educational training format as part of the instructor training process. TKD schools have proven to be pretty successful and a lot of them have instructors who have gone to the Olympic training center in Colorado. It has probably contributed to instructional and marketing success.

First, I would like to ask the Certified Teacher thing? What makes you certified? Who authorizes it? Is it nation wide or state of local?

I would just like to make a statement here Paul. Sometimes, when you state this, you come across as being arrogant. It is like when a police officer states something and says listen to me because I know the law. They know their local law. Most likely not my local law. It also sounds like the Ph.D. or other doctorate who insists that people call them Doctor or address them in written as doctor. It is also like those who profess that their degree makes them smarter than others for some reason. Either for the others not having a degree or not being in the field of their own. Nothing personal, just letting you know, that if I qualified everything by stating I had 'X' amount of classes in this science field before making a statement. It makes it sound like the statemetn has no merit on its' own without the certification or weight of the organization of college I went too.

1. Integrity - What is good example and a bad example of this?

2. Quality - How does a new student judge this? If they have trained in another art, they have a better chance. The same art, depends on if they open their eyes and mind long enough to see if it works. So, how do you measure this?

3. Balancing divergence/innovation with preservation - I can see this working in the FMA's, yet ow does this work inte KMA's and JMA's that have had it written down and insist upon certain techiniques in certain order and taught a certain way only. And those that do innovate, are considered within their own communitees to water it down or to have the Brass one to change what was taught by the seniors in the past.


4. INSTRUCTION - How do you measure this? Quality teaching by example, or by explanation verbally, or by ... ?

5. exposure/advertising/expansion. - What is the line? If you do nto have seminars and other forms of exposure including advertising, then you cannot expand then it is hard to spread the art. Yet, you can be closed door, and teach jsut a few, and be called elitist and arrogant. So what is the line to walk?

Curious

 

[Tgace]

I would just like to make a statement here Paul. Sometimes, when you state this, you come across as being arrogant. It is like when a police officer states something and says listen to me because I know the law. They know their local law. Most likely not my local law. It also sounds like the Ph.D. or other doctorate who insists that people call them Doctor or address them in written as doctor. It is also like those who profess that their degree makes them smarter than others for some reason. Either for the others not having a degree or not being in the field of their own. Nothing personal, just letting you know, that if I qualified everything by stating I had 'X' amount of classes in this science field before making a statement. It makes it sound like the statemetn has no merit on its' own without the certification or weight of the organization of college I went too.

Look Rich, dont take this the wrong way but I notice a pattern of you taking this approach every time a person tries to reference their experience. I can agree when somebody comes off as "look Im an expert and nobody can question me." But rarely have I seen that. And I see no evidence of Paul saying "Im a teacher so you cant question me." Hes just presenting his opinion through the filter of his experience. If I as a police officer cant offer opinion based on my experience (btw: local laws dont vary to an extreme, but the enforcement of them may), than why should we give ANYBODY here any credence based on their rank in the martial arts? Can we just discuss the topic, as long as we stay polite, without attacking the messenger?

 

[loki09789]

First, I would like to ask the Certified Teacher thing? What makes you certified? Who authorizes it? Is it nation wide or state of local?

I would just like to make a statement here Paul. Sometimes, when you state this, you come across as being arrogant. It is like when a police officer states something and says listen to me because I know the law. They know their local law. Most likely not my local law. It also sounds like the Ph.D. or other doctorate who insists that people call them Doctor or address them in written as doctor. It is also like those who profess that their degree makes them smarter than others for some reason. Either for the others not having a degree or not being in the field of their own. Nothing personal, just letting you know, that if I qualified everything by stating I had 'X' amount of classes in this science field before making a statement. It makes it sound like the statemetn has no merit on its' own without the certification or weight of the organization of college I went too.

Boy that was pointed.... Rich, if you are going to 'say something' just plug the names it where they fit (Tom for the cop, Dr. Barber for the PhD -even though it isn't true, and me for the degree thing at this point) instead of the 'some people' comments, shows more honestly. I am not claiming more smarts by any means, but drawing from experience/opportunities.

Opinions are like what? as the old saying goes. Though I think all folks have a right to their opinion and deserve equal representation of their opinion, I would say that all opinions are NOT created equal. Look at the disparity of REP POINTS of members based on how well respected their opinions are recieved.

The point of this continuation was to get back on topic. Sorry Rich, please don't confuse my implication with your inferrance, or as Tolkien had been known to say, don't confuse your interpretation with my intention.
Believe me, Rich if the topic of discussion was applied physics, I would happily and humbly defer to your engineering know how.

If two people have 'opinions' about the cure for cancer and one is a landscaper and the other is an Oncologist, I would say that there is a disparity of credibility in parts of their opinions. They might both bring up excellent philosophical, moral and humanitarian points, but in other areas of the topic I would have to defer to the 'topic expert'. I am sure that if a newbie walked into your school and told you and your instructors that your stuff was 'wrong' you wouldn't take it too seriously.

My degree licensure is in NYS, had to get a Bachelor's to get it, have to get a Masters to keep it. The state exams and teaching man hour requirements are set by NYS, but (and I say this with a certain amount of pride admitedly) within the teaching field, NYS and N>Eastern teaching certs are pretty highly regarded. Educational degrees are based on Ed. Psych and a specific content area so the material might be packaged differently, but the material is pretty universal across the country. Heck even the world. Lots of teacher exchange programs out there - much like student exchange programs.

Let me rephrase MY questions to keep the topical focus theme:

Do the poster's here think that some kind of educational training, like head/assistant coaches for youth sports are required to do by most leagues or something similar would benefit/have benefitted your growth as an instructor? Would studying "instructor-do" as a field outside of the content of a specific art go a long way to reduce the artistic feuds?

If there are responses other than on topic, use PM.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Look Rich, dont take this the wrong way but I notice a pattern of you taking this approach every time a person tries to reference their experience. I can agree when somebody comes off as "look Im an expert and nobody can question me." But rarely have I seen that. And I see no evidence of Paul saying "Im a teacher so you cant question me." Hes just presenting his opinion through the filter of his experience. If I as a police officer cant offer opinion based on my experience (btw: local laws dont vary to an extreme, but the enforcement of them may), than why should we give ANYBODY here any credence based on their rank in the martial arts? Can we just discuss the topic, as long as we stay polite, without attacking the messenger?

Tom, when I asked some questions about law precviously, you stated that you did nto knwo and that they could very from state to state.

I repeat the questiosn now:

How do carry a knife that is legal in my state on my person and or in my car in all states without getting into trouble?

What are the laws about special plates, such as Dealership plates, or Transport plates, or permanent trailer plates, or maufactuer plates? Are they reciprical form state to state, and if they are not what are the rules on how to handle them?

Can you conduct a DOT test in a state park?

Can you contuct a DOT test in a federal park?

My point was that you may be an expert. I recognize that. I also recognize that there maybe variations. That there are no absolutes.


:asian:

 

[Rich Parsons]

Paul, I will adress the last first. Revenge . . .

Boy that was pointed.... Rich, if you are going to 'say
If there are responses other than on topic, use PM.

I find it on topic. Sorry. Also PM, have a way of making it look like one has given up and the other has won. So, I play the PM game only if I get the last public word. Sorry, been burned that way before.

something' just plug the names it where they fit (Tom for the cop, Dr. Barber for the PhD -even though it isn't true, and me for the degree thing at this point) instead of the 'some people' comments, shows more honestly. I am not claiming more smarts by any means, but drawing from experience/opportunities.

Jerome, has never insisted that I call him Dr. If you it that way then please offer my apoliges to Jerome. It was not him I was discussing. I had a professor who did not have a doctorates of any kind and insisted all students call him doctor since he was teaching them. Later after he onbtained a degree from outside of the USA, could nto get into a US program, he still insisted he was called doctor. As per Jerome Barber, that is something he writes after his name for a promise he made to his mother. Nothing more. I respect promises made to mothers.

As to honesty, so it would have been better go Tim K to come out state Tim H? Remember, I like to give people back what they dish out, and see if they attack it back. Seems like this might be the case. If I was truly attacking you and Tom. So what is it? Am I being a total jerk and nto allow somethign from the distant past to go away because every little child involved keeps bringing back up? Or is it me, trying to make a point, that there are no absolutes, and that sometiems to me you have come across as being arrogant and that your teaching credentials give you special care or insight. I agree your total experience gives you the sum total of Paul, that includes his education. Yet, it comes off sometimes as if you do not have a degree in teaching you are not qualified in teaching the martial arts. No disrespect meant then or now. For you also seem to be someone who wants to improve themsleves. :asian:

Opinions are like what? as the old saying goes. Though I think all folks have a right to their opinion and deserve equal representation of their opinion, I would say that all opinions are NOT created equal. Look at the disparity of REP POINTS of members based on how well respected their opinions are recieved.

Rep Points - I went through the FMA section and gave all positive posts positive rep points. I have started in a few other forums as well, yet, not all of them. Go to members list. Click on the reputation button. You will list them based upon rep points. You will find that most of them are heavy posters and FMA'ers. I have not had a chance to reach the whol baord yet. I am workign in real life as you and everyone else is. I am also busy with my play time. So, it will take a while to balance out.
:asian:

The point of this continuation was to get back on topic. Sorry Rich, please don't confuse my implication with your inferrance, or as Tolkien had been known to say, don't confuse your interpretation with my intention.
Believe me, Rich if the topic of discussion was applied physics, I would happily and humbly defer to your engineering know how.

Topic? Then why was the topic title including Revenge?

If two people have 'opinions' about the cure for cancer and one is a landscaper and the other is an Oncologist, I would say that there is a disparity of credibility in parts of their opinions. They might both bring up excellent philosophical, moral and humanitarian points, but in other areas of the topic I would have to defer to the 'topic expert'. I am sure that if a newbie walked into your school and told you and your instructors that your stuff was 'wrong' you wouldn't take it too seriously.

I personally would not throw away the idea from the landscaper or gardner. For he or she might have some healing arts from the CMA's or Homopathy, that has worked before. I just like to consider all the options and then make a decision. As opposed to only those with certain credentails beign able to post on topic or to be able to respond, or for that matter to spread the art.

My degree licensure is in NYS, had to get a Bachelor's to get it, have to get a Masters to keep it. The state exams and teaching man hour requirements are set by NYS, but (and I say this with a certain amount of pride admitedly) within the teaching field, NYS and N>Eastern teaching certs are pretty highly regarded. Educational degrees are based on Ed. Psych and a specific content area so the material might be packaged differently, but the material is pretty universal across the country. Heck even the world. Lots of teacher exchange programs out there - much like student exchange programs.

Paul, Congrates on the degreees and certs. Yes the North East and the MidWest do nto require their graduates to take the GRE for their degree to be certified or recognized. This in no ways takes away from your accomplishments or those of others. I agree you live in an area that high standards for education. I never questioned that.

Let me rephrase MY questions to keep the topical focus theme:

Do the poster's here think that some kind of educational training, like head/assistant coaches for youth sports are required to do by most leagues or something similar would benefit/have benefitted your growth as an instructor? Would studying "instructor-do" as a field outside of the content of a specific art go a long way to reduce the artistic feuds?

Well the instructor classes would be nice. The problem is to avoid the McDojo syndrome of also teaching business class at the same time. The business aspect is important also to be able to make money at it to live off of. Yet it should be a separate class. Not part of the instructors class. Yet, the time and effort is worth something, and many would consider this gate keeping and or McDojo in aspect, for you are trying to get even more money out of the student before they can teach. And those who do go through it should have pride for their accomplshments. Just not Arrogance, and that is a fine line.

As to fueds, personally I do not think it will resolve them. Fueds are based upon personalities and what they know and have been told. Also between arts this would not work either. The FMA template does not work well for the JMA, nor does it work the other way. You will find people or areas that can absorb or change or adapt, yet the cultures are just different and teh same approach will not work in my mind and opinion. And yes I know everyone has one.

:asian:

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

You mention being a certified teacher...it makes me think of the fact that college professors, as a rule, receive absolutely no training whatsoever in teaching their subject. (Some schools have a half-day training for TAs and some have a day or two orientation for new faculty, but more than that is rare.) The military, of course, does train its instructors. I know some martial arts or martial arts schools insist on teacher training, but many assume, as with college professors, that if you have the knowledge then you can communicate it.

So, does being a college Prof automaticlly make you a better martial arts instructor?

 

[Flatlander]

So, does being a college Prof automaticlly make you a better martial arts instructor?

I don't think this is the point that Arnisador is alluding to. I believe he's pointing to the occurence of people trying to teach the art, and having the skill in techniques, and understanding of the principles, yet lacking the capability to pass on the knowledge. My thought here is that for someone to have that ability, they must: a) learn it from someone, or b) be gifted with the ability to teach.

So if you're not born with the gift, where do you learn it? If your teacher didn't discuss these topics with you, how will you learn? Should you need to learn?

I don't think I can teach at all. I'm learning to move, but I don't know why I'm learning. Or maybe I don't know how I'm learning. Somehow, my teacher makes me learn, but I cannot identify the process that allows his knowledge to flow to me. So I don't think I could naturally replicate his ability. Therefore, should I one day decide that, given the extreme lack of FMA exposure in this part of the world, I might like to 'spread the art' so as to honour my teacher, and the Professor for the work that he did, then I would best serve my future students by educating myself on some teaching theory.

IMHO - Dan.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Seriously though, there were some good issues brought up about instruction and art that are worth continuing without distraction:

1. Integrity
2. Quality
3. Balancing divergence/innovation with preservation
4. INSTRUCTION
5. exposure/advertising/expansion.

I blink my eyes and here it is on another thread. My 2 cents worth.

1. Integrity - being ethically true to your goals and the goals of the art. If you can spread your art and be true to it, there's integrity.
2. Quality - hoo boy, a hard one to pin down. One's quality of deliverance will hinge on the quality one received to begin with. If you got quality instruction then youcan pass on quality instruction. Now if you see you've been short changed OR your art is not as effective as it could be, then you can get more instruction and raise your quality.
3. Balancing innovation with preservation. That hinges on personal direction. An art is an art and not science.
4. Instruction. I cover that in point #2.
5. exposure/advertising/expansion - if the above are in, go for it with #5 and get the word out.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

I don't think this is the point that Arnisador is alluding to.

I didn't think that he was saying that. My question was just what is was.

 

[arnisador]

So, does being a college Prof automaticlly make you a better martial arts instructor?

The difference in outlook between high school teachers and college professors is sometimes characterized as "The teacher teaches, the professor professes." The idea--with which I am neither agreeing nor disagreeing--is that a teacher and a professor approach education in very different ways.

From this view, a teacher learns about things like educational psych., classroom management, child development, curriculum design, etc.--basically, learns how to teach things. The teacher then uses this skill in "teaching" which, like a skill at "selling" or a similar general skill. is at least partially transferable to other areas. That is, a high school math. teacher is skilled at both math. and teaching so asking him to sub for a high school physics teacher isn't outlandish if the physics teacher has prepared materials/curriculum/etc. for him.

A professor, on the other hand, studies a narrow area in great detail while earning the Ph.D. or similar degree. She should be, at the end, the leading expert in all the world in some very narrowly defined sub-subspecialty of her area. Along the way she gains a deep understanding of the more general concepts that go into her area. When she gets into the classroom, she brings her knowledge and experience and professes, that is, speaks about her knowledge. She is not teaching in quite the same sense as the teacher--she is providing information and opinion, but in a less structured way and in a way less informed (or less concerned) about learning styles etc., and so the student must be an active learner to get what he or she needs from this approach. Having the professor sub in a different area wouldn't make much sense, in general.

I'm sure that, as usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle--high school teachers know their area reasonably well, and college professors have been throug enough eyars of education to have picked up on some of the key ideas even if they lack formal training. But I think it's true that there is a difference in style, in outlook, and of course in training/education.

I would think that being a trained K-12 teacher would be a big help. The emphasis on structure and having a well-defined curriculum, on having goals for lessons and work, and the training in psychology of learning would be beneficial. More than anything else, a realisitic idea of how long it takes for people to learn and be able to demonstrate that learning, of the variability in learning styles and abilities, and a sense of the patience a teacher requires would be helpful. Double points for a phys. ed. teacher.

A college professor teaches and so gets feedback on communication skills, and also develops a sense of many of the items above. Of course, often they only grade their own exams, and don't get feedback from national exams, so it isn't quite the same. In college a student can fail out which is hard in K-12 so college profs. accept that some studenst will be 'weeded out' and often don't have much of an issue with that. But a college professor gets more experience, I think, teaching large groups of people, and being challenged on points that aren't necessarily standard points with standard counterarguments--a college professor develops a good ability to think on her feet. When you have a small seminar, especially at the graduate level, you find yourself having to answer 'I don't know' or 'I don't think that anyone knows!' fairly often! Most schools have some sort of professor evaluations so professors do get the benefit of feedback from which they can learn and improve.

So, to finally answer Mr. Hartman's question: I know that 'automatically' is too strong. You have bad teachers and bad professors. Some professors went into the business only for research and may have no real teaching skills. But in general, I think that a college prof. brings skills in communicating ideas effectively to groups, skills in giving reasons for doing things, a reasonable sense of structuring a class and a curriculum, experience keeping the attention of a class, and a general confidence in teaching. Of course, a professor also will have a good knowledge of how to use resources to find answers to more detailed questions. So Yes, as a rule I think it would help, despite the dangers that also go along with being a professor--over-intellectualizing things, talking too long during class and hence having the students practice too little, etc.

Speaking for myself alone, it's definitely helped my ability to stand in front of a group of 30 martial artists and gain and then retain their attention, and has improved my sensitivity to the fact that a.) not everyone learns like I do, and b.) patience is necessary. Other than that, I don't think it's been a really big help. Just as I do when I teach college, when I teach martial arts I mimic, to a large extent, martial arts instructors that I have had whose teaching skills I respect, mixed in my own personal way. In both cases, the set of those whose teaching I respect and the set of those whose skills I respect have a large intersection, but there are those who had skill but couldn't teach and those who were good teachers but lacked skill. (That isn't always a slam, either--look at someone like Marty Manuel who is unable to physically perform techniques anymore but is a respected teacher. I've never met Mr. Manuel but I know him by reputation.) I get much of my martial arts teaching from watching martial arts teachers, and I still pick up tricks that way. In that regard, learning to teach the martial arts has been very like learning to teach in college for me.

 

[Tgace]

Tom, when I asked some questions about law precviously, you stated that you did nto knwo and that they could very from state to state.

I repeat the questiosn now:

How do carry a knife that is legal in my state on my person and or in my car in all states without getting into trouble?

What are the laws about special plates, such as Dealership plates, or Transport plates, or permanent trailer plates, or maufactuer plates? Are they reciprical form state to state, and if they are not what are the rules on how to handle them?

Can you conduct a DOT test in a state park?

Can you contuct a DOT test in a federal park?

My point was that you may be an expert. I recognize that. I also recognize that there maybe variations. That there are no absolutes.


:asian:

Rich you miss my point. The issue isnt ME or my knowledge of law. I dont know ALL the laws in my own state. Thats why I carry a book around with me everyday, to look them up. I could answer your questions if I felt like looking them up. Perhaps I could call one of our traffic enforcement officers if you really want me to. My point is that you seem to be accusing that people are flouting their experience around so they can be above question and I dont think thats the case. So if I state my opinion on a law enforcement issue from now on Im going to be accused of trying to quash opposing viewpoints? If you think Im mistaken or wrong, say so. Lawyers do it all the time. Im not afraid to argue my point based on my knowledge. Ive never claimed to be the "last word" on LE on martial talk and I dont believe Paul M. has said likewise about education and I take some offense at the accusation.

 

[OC Kid]

1. Integrity
2. Quality
3. Balancing divergence/innovation with preservation
4. INSTRUCTION
5. exposure/advertising/expansion


This is tough but I think also MOTIVE should be added to the list.

Integrity; Well anymore anyone can get a B/B you just drive to the M/A store and pick one up. So you've trained in a few styles and opened a school. To me integrity is the students getting what they deserve. The best instruction of there chosen art.

Quality: Being able to pass the info on to the students. A instructor maybe the most knowledgeable in his art in the world but if he cant pass the info on in a way the students will understand then he isnt doing them any good. The same with non traditional arts such as MMA. Some guy maybe a world champ but if he cant pass in the info it isnt doing the students any good.

Balancing divergence/innovation with preservation, Im going to guess at what this means. Preservation is teaching the forms ect and discipline the way that they are supposed to be taught/ innovation using up to date training techniques and equipment, preservation doing all the above without taking from the art.
INSTRUCTION; Instructors who are caring and take pride in their students and reps of their schools not just there to get paid. Students who actually be able to defend themselves or their loved ones if necessary and not have egos picking fights bullying, a instructor should be teaching a way of life and be a example for his students. Ive heard of Instructors sitting in the car getting high smoking pot with some of their students(for reals). Now would I send my kid there....

exposure/advertising/expansion;I dont think this is a issue as long as the other issues are met.

now motiviation
Do they do it for the cash, is it a business first mentality or M/A trainig first mentality. To me this is the sticky part. How can a intructor charge and still meet the previous issues? I dont mean the usual monthly dues, contracts ect or testing fees, but there are ways to fleece the sheep so to speak that to me arent really ethical. Thats where the question lies to me.

 

[loki09789]

Paul, I will adress the last first. Revenge . . .


Topic? Then why was the topic title including Revenge?

Paul, Congrates on the degreees and certs. Yes the North East and the MidWest do nto require their graduates to take the GRE for their degree to be certified or recognized. This in no ways takes away from your accomplishments or those of others. I agree you live in an area that high standards for education. I never questioned that.
:asian:

I honestly don't care to comment on the rest but these things I will:

Topic of 'Revenge', well that was an attempt at comedy with a light homage to the serial horror movies such as Jaws, Nightmare on Elm Street and such...

GRE's are like the SAT/ACTS for higher degree programs. Since teachers are already tested (usually at the Bachelor's degree level) by the state as part of the cert/lincensure process it serves the same purpose and therefore is not part of the entry into a Education Masters degree program like other grad programs. Why? GRE is a measurable, tested quality control assessment to evaluate the candidates along with other criteria. The licensing exam serves that purpose already. Not to mention that GRE exam creation is a private exam that is accepted by the educational institution. The states establish Teacher Cert. standards, not private organizations.

It is the equivalent to the Bar exam for law school students or Medical licensing exams for that profession. Albeit at a lower level of college degree training, the testing for professional licenses usually starts at the minimal training requirement/entry level. For teachers that is B.A/B.S. level of schooling. In NYS, and I know other states parallel this, the initial cert is provisional, after that Permanent (at least under the older standards) cert requires a Masters degree in an appropriate field, further testing and video tape of the teacher in action. NOT FUN, but a way of ensuring professional quality (though not a perfect job is done by teachers to be professional in all cases) instruction.

As far as whether being a college professor 'automatically' makes you a better martial arts instructor.... they did call RP and others "Professor" as a sign of respect for their skill. Even though some of these "Affectionately awarded" Professors may have never even completed HS level educations.

It might not be 'automatic' but the benefits, in the right hands, of educational opportunities, especially in soft science fields like Psych/Soc/Counselling/Sports Sciences fields and such is that you learn about people in a scientific/systematic way that many will take far longer to understand. The smattering of interpersonal skill training that military, LEO and service industry people get is all based on the stuff that these more educated people will understand in more depth.

Not automatic because it takes work and dedication, but definitely a benefit.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Rich you miss my point. The issue isnt ME or my knowledge of law. I dont know ALL the laws in my own state. Thats why I carry a book around with me everyday, to look them up. I could answer your questions if I felt like looking them up. Perhaps I could call one of our traffic enforcement officers if you really want me to. My point is that you seem to be accusing that people are flouting their experience around so they can be above question and I dont think thats the case. So if I state my opinion on a law enforcement issue from now on Im going to be accused of trying to quash opposing viewpoints? If you think Im mistaken or wrong, say so. Lawyers do it all the time. Im not afraid to argue my point based on my knowledge. Ive never claimed to be the "last word" on LE on martial talk and I dont believe Paul M. has said likewise about education and I take some offense at the accusation.

Like I said before, you Tom, have stated before that you do not know the complete book of laws for everyone.

You do not come across as being demanding of your point of view as the only one. You allow for the possibility for yourself to be wrong. I also agree with you when you state, that while on the road you are right, and I will argue with you and the law in a court room. I sit back and smile and be polite and offer what I can to make the experience as polite as possible.

Yet, others, have this tendacy for job titles, and or designations. I did use the police officer as an example, and if you thought it was directed at you, the I apologize. I stated it was for Paul M. You mentioned yourself that there are possibilities and no absolutes, yet that the laws are very similiar. I agree similiar yet not the same. So, if my example leads you to believe I was attacking you then please think otherwise.

My point of the that post was that if you know enough about people you can make veiled and not so veiled comments that lead people to wonder, and you can back out of them. In this case, the Dr. was not Jerome Barber, it was a college professor/lecturer for psychology/philosphy, the class was cross listed. The police officer could have been you, if you had not answered me previously stating that your opinion is just your opinion, take your experiences with the law into account, yet ..., . Once again no absolutes. The police officer have been some of them I have the missfortune to run across. Yes, there are bad apples everywhere that ruin it for everyone.

And I could see where you might think it was directed at you since Paul M once told everyone to listen to you in large bold font because you are a police officer. I think I made my point then, that you were not the absolute of the law then or now. So, no foul no harm?


:asian:

 

[StraightRazor]

Even though Loki and I havent gotten allong too well as of yet.
I must say I didnt get the impression he was throwing his educational weight around. You guys obviously read a lot into each others posts.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I honestly don't care to comment on the rest but these things I will:

Topic of 'Revenge', well that was an attempt at comedy with a light homage to the serial horror movies such as Jaws, Nightmare on Elm Street and such...

GRE's are like the SAT/ACTS for higher degree programs. Since teachers are already tested (usually at the Bachelor's degree level) by the state as part of the cert/lincensure process it serves the same purpose and therefore is not part of the entry into a Education Masters degree program like other grad programs. Why? GRE is a measurable, tested quality control assessment to evaluate the candidates along with other criteria. The licensing exam serves that purpose already. Not to mention that GRE exam creation is a private exam that is accepted by the educational institution. The states establish Teacher Cert. standards, not private organizations.

It is the equivalent to the Bar exam for law school students or Medical licensing exams for that profession. Albeit at a lower level of college degree training, the testing for professional licenses usually starts at the minimal training requirement/entry level. For teachers that is B.A/B.S. level of schooling. In NYS, and I know other states parallel this, the initial cert is provisional, after that Permanent (at least under the older standards) cert requires a Masters degree in an appropriate field, further testing and video tape of the teacher in action. NOT FUN, but a way of ensuring professional quality (though not a perfect job is done by teachers to be professional in all cases) instruction.

As far as whether being a college professor 'automatically' makes you a better martial arts instructor.... they did call RP and others "Professor" as a sign of respect for their skill. Even though some of these "Affectionately awarded" Professors may have never even completed HS level educations.

It might not be 'automatic' but the benefits, in the right hands, of educational opportunities, especially in soft science fields like Psych/Soc/Counselling/Sports Sciences fields and such is that you learn about people in a scientific/systematic way that many will take far longer to understand. The smattering of interpersonal skill training that military, LEO and service industry people get is all based on the stuff that these more educated people will understand in more depth.

Not automatic because it takes work and dedication, but definitely a benefit.

So, with all the mis-understandings, another one has occurred because they (I) could not see your smile when you said it. Ok