What is circle punch?

Flying Crane

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I don’t get this “thumb down” circular punch. I’m having a hard time envisioning it in a way that makes sense.

power for a circular punch comes from a strong root and rotation of the body. Too many people just throw a hooking type punch with the arm and shoulder. They fail to engage the body and the root. It makes for a weaker punch.
 
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Alan0354

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I don’t get this “thumb down” circular punch. I’m having a hard time envisioning it in a way that makes sense.

power for a circular punch comes from a strong root and rotation of the body. Too many people just throw a hooking type punch with the arm and shoulder. They fail to engage the body and the root. It makes for a weaker punch.
If you watch the video in the post #1 of this thread and watch Sean Strickland. I am not saying it's right or wrong, it's just is.


That's because he only knows how to hit with the first knuckes of his hand. If you watch closely you will see that one of his circular punches landed on the front of the skull. If thew the punch the way that I described all of the punches would have landed on the side of the head and not the front of the head. You can also see that he missed a lot of those punches as well.

View attachment 27073

Swinging like this will result in a weaker punch and an easier punch to see.


Had he used the swinging method that I've been champion then this would have been a knock out. This shows what I stated earlier (above). He turns his head and exposes the back of his head. Using the technique I've been telling you would have easily resulted in a KO and maybe death? Because now the punch is landing on the back of the head.

But because he uses this "thumbs down" technique. The punch doesn't land solid. @ 3:08. It was a weak punch.
View attachment 27074

Here we see another reason this punch is weak. Elbow is leading the punch. This is extremely telegraphed and this time Hall ducks under it. If this was a circular punch like I've been promoting then it would be possible to still land the punch even if he ducked.
View attachment 27075

This is what happens when my sparring partners try to duck. Take note that my arm doesn't have that unnatural bend. I'm hitting with the same knuckles you keep scraping up lol.

She ducks under a hook punch. Because that's what she had for lunch the 6 or 7 previous punches. Normally if I was throwing a hook it would have landed right about here. But because of how I throw my circular punches. My horizontal punches start the same way that my vertical punches start.
View attachment 27077


I because of punching with thumb up, It doesn't take much to turn my horizontal punch into a vertical punch and landing it on the weaker parts of the the head.
View attachment 27076

I know you keep trying to find some truth in MMA with this punch, but I'm telling you there are a lot of draw backs to trying to do this type of punch with thumb down. Don't let the fact that my sparring partner is female devalue the lesson or skill. She used to fight competitively and she knew how to throw a punch some of which I ate and my knees buckled.

If I were you I would ignore anything that demonstrates doing this punch with thumbs down. If you still want to punch with thumb down simply because you see in MMA then just be prepared to deal with the injuries that you'll get from punching like that.


Change the length of the punch to fit the space. Circular punches can be small in length or long in length. I train in small spaces just to explore the limits of this type of punch. The smallest area that I've been able swing this punch is a 3'5" x 3'5" area. I'm 5'9" so If I can do this punch in an area that small then you should be able to do it there. But again that's thumbs up and not thumbs down.
Yes, the way you do the circle punch is easier and more natural to do. It's just interesting people fighting at UFC level do the thumbs down. I've seen another fighter did it exactly like yours also. I tried thumbs down, it's not natural and feel strange on the elbow. Thumbs up is a lot more natural for sure, just have to build up the second knuckle. I was so happy I am ready to do the circle punch thumbs up today, then I had to scrap my left big knuckle on the pole throwing a hook to the bag. I aimed at the bag and missed the pole in the path of the swing. The bag was swinging the way I go back and fore between the two bags and it swung too close to the pole.

I was hoping to have healthy knuckles, do a video and then you can critique on my punches. Now delay again. :(
 

JowGaWolf

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I don’t get this “thumb down” circular punch. I’m having a hard time envisioning it in a way that makes sense.
It won't ever make since. It's the opposite of a horizontal hook with the thumb up. Do a horizontal hook to the head or body but turn your fist so the back of your hand is facing you and the thumb side is down. It looks just like this but with a proper fist. This is the position that your hand is in when it strikes the head.

It's a useless punch because the mechanics of it will only allow you to strike head high. It's only good for one strike and the angle doesn't allow the body to flow into a follow up strike.


1627868691644.png



A vertical fist thumb side up will allow you to do this.


People throw this punch because they think all punches should hit with these 2 knuckles. So they twist their fist for the sake of only striking with these two knuckles. Alan has a bad taste of Chinese Martial Arts so he doesn't trust it so he's looking outside of Chinese Martial Arts for answers and unfortunately this is one concept that MMA has completely wrong. I'll tell this to any MMA fighter, show him or her the better punch and they would abandon the thumb side down punch..
1627869397745.png


It's the exact same punch that Chuck Lidell says it hurts big time to do. This mess. Only only needs to look at the mechanics and see that something is off.
 

JowGaWolf

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If you watch the video in the post #1 of this thread and watch Sean Strickland. I am not saying it's right or wrong, it's just is.
You aren't saying. I get that and I know which way feels more comfortable to you and I'm glad that's it's thumbs up. This is me making a big deal about it and that I'm saying that it's wrong, because I want to be on record about that. If there are 2 things people should know about me, it should be 1. I'm male. 2. thumbs down is the wrong way to do this punch lol. I hate that you had such a bad experience because of Iron Palm and this ranks right up there bad experiences. This punch is like Sin Wrong. lol.

This is what they are trying to throw. Pay close attention to 2:55, because he shows thumb side up as well.

Now lets look at some guys using it. You'll see Thumb-side up and Thumb-side horizontal which is the only 2 ways this punch should be thrown. You'll also see some hit with the same knuckles I highlighted. You'll also see 1 of 2 things. They either don't see it coming or they turned their head exposing weaker areas. I don't know where the thumbs down punch comes from but it's garbage because it's bad body mechanics. lol.
 
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JowGaWolf

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I am ready to do the circle punch thumbs up today, then I had to scrap my left big knuckle on the pole throwing a hook to the bag. I aimed at the bag and missed the pole in the path of the swing. The bag was swinging the way I go back and fore between the two bags and it swung too close to the pole.
This is the basic punch that you should be training. Your lead hand helps to launch the rear hand. The waist helps turn the punch. The legs pushes into the punch and the whole body works together.

You don't have to lower and raise the body. He's just trying to demonstration with exaggeration how he's pushing into the punch and not pivoting. I know those punches hurt the guy holding the mits, because the guy in the front will sometimes flinch before the punch lands. Looks like he's trying to resist all of that punch too, which is probably tearing up his shoulder as well.

This should help give you a better idea of the mechanics. I would recommend doing these punches just by swinging in the air at first, This way you can be long with the punch and get the maximum range. Just make sure you got lots of space. Then once you are comfortable with that range you can start to shorten it as needed. It's easier to work with this punch by knowing your maximum range. Even before you swing, you'll have an idea of the objects within your maximum range. This is the most basic punch. Your lead hand knocks down your opponent's guard and clears the path for your rear hand to land. This is the basic concept
 
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Alan0354

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You aren't saying. I get that and I know which way feels more comfortable to you and I'm glad that's it's thumbs up. This is me making a big deal about it and that I'm saying that it's wrong, because I want to be on record about that. If there are 2 things people should know about me, it should be 1. I'm male. 2. thumbs down is the wrong way to do this punch lol. I hate that you had such a bad experience because of Iron Palm and this ranks right up there bad experiences. This punch is like Sin Wrong. lol.

This is what they are trying to throw. Pay close attention to 2:55, because he shows thumb side up as well.

Now lets look at some guys using it. You'll see Thumb-side up and Thumb-side horizontal which is the only 2 ways this punch should be thrown. You'll also see some hit with the same knuckles I highlighted. You'll also see 1 of 2 things. They either don't see it coming or they turned their head exposing weaker areas. I don't know where the thumbs down punch comes from but it's garbage because it's bad body mechanics. lol.
In the second video, I thought most of them are just long hook punch, not circle punches. I can see Tyson threw a hook punch hitting with the big knuckles with thumbs up, not the way you show using the second knuckle. This I actually practice regularly. That's what I thought it should be done until I heard about circle punch here. You call this circle punch also? This is definitely feels most comfortable to me as I have been practicing it all along.

The circle punch with thumbs down feels stiff, I feel the whole arm is kind of locked, I cannot swing it like a whip like if the thumb is up. Just feel I can swing too hard and injure my elbow or something if I swing thumbs down because the whole arm is kind of locked as one piece.
 

JowGaWolf

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You call this circle punch also?
In general when I think of Circular Punches, I'm looking at how the power is generated. Is the power generated from a linear motion or a circular one. When you are standing in front of your opponent do your punches land on the front of your opponent or do they land on the side. If they land on the front then they are linear, If they land on the side of the head then it's probably circular.


In the second video, I thought most of them are just long hook punch, not circle punches. I can see Tyson threw a hook punch hitting with the big knuckles with thumbs up, not the way you show using the second knuckle.
I took a second look and you are right. I fast forward the punch too far, It wasn't until after the impact that it looked like he was hitting with those knuckles. This is what I was looking at but it wasn't the initial impact. This is the force of the punch straightening out his wrist. But the impact is what you stated.

1627920969078.png
 

Flying Crane

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Lots of punches can be considered circular, including hooks and the overhead punches from the recent videos. I even consider a straight punch to the nose a circular punch, because in the method that I train, we deliver the power to that punch in a circular way. Most everything we do comes off a circular power method, so the entire method is circular, even when the path of a technique follows a straight line.
 
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Alan0354

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In general when I think of Circular Punches, I'm looking at how the power is generated. Is the power generated from a linear motion or a circular one. When you are standing in front of your opponent do your punches land on the front of your opponent or do they land on the side. If they land on the front then they are linear, If they land on the side of the head then it's probably circular.



I took a second look and you are right. I fast forward the punch too far, It wasn't until after the impact that it looked like he was hitting with those knuckles. This is what I was looking at but it wasn't the initial impact. This is the force of the punch straightening out his wrist. But the impact is what you stated.

View attachment 27081
Now I start to see, circle motion that hit the side is circle punch, that includes what Tyson did. I called that "long hook" in my mind all the time and I do practice that. But there's a disadvantage that I feel. For boxing and even MMA, it work just fine because they wear the gloves. Literally it's the gloves that hit, not the knuckle. If I wear gloves to punch the bag, I can hit hard. BUT, if I go bare knuckle, I don't feel it work that well.

The reason is if I do "long hook" and land on the side of the face, the second knuckles( the one you use to hit in circle punch) are going to make contact first before the big knuckles. This serves as "cushion" or shock absorber to slow down the speed of the punch. So when the big knuckles finally make contact, the speed slowed down already. I do bare knuckle, I can feel the second knuckles contact the bag first and it never hit that hard.

Remember this is a "long hook", the face of the fist lands at 45deg instead of perfectly flat to the face(like the short hook), there is no way you can avoid not having the second knuckles landing first and slow the speed before the big knuckles making contact. For boxing with gloves, it doesn't matter as it's the gloves that make the contact, not the knuckles.

That's the reason I am so interested in the circle punch. The way you described you circle punch, you use the second knuckles to hit to the side, that is first contact and you get the full speed. This is same as Ridge Hand. Both hit hard. My issue is I need a lot of second knuckle conditioning. It's going to be a while before I can hit confidently with full force.

Ridge hand can hit hard, I've been practicing this also. One issue is if the opponent pull back, then I won't make contact with the wrist bone or the bone between the big knuckle and the wrist. Instead, the finger will bare the blunt of the strike and that can hurt!!! I think the way you do the circle punch is better IF I can condition my second knuckles to hit.

It is not totally true I avoid Chinese MA because of the Iron Palm. I do think about what is practical in actual fight. I criticize Wing Chun because of their sticky hand and their stands, but I do find their punch and the step kick very useful and have been practicing both particularly the punch. Wing Chun punch with the last two knuckles instead of the first two like boxing. Also Wing Chun punch has a nudging motion when punching. It punch with thumbs up in vertical motion. I don't know how to explain any better, I went on youtube and I don't see they explain that either. Bruce Lee did stress on it and he even showed the nudging motion. This help together with shoulder, waist and legs to add to the power. Remember I said I practice punching up to tall people. Wing Chun punch is perfect for that.

For punching up to tall people, if i punch normally like boxing with palm facing down(thumb on the side), because of the upward motion, the second knuckles are going to make contact first and slow the punch down as described before, it's not optimal. Wing Chun punch fits the bill perfectly hitting with the last two knuckles.

Also, the step kick of Wing Chun, you can see people use it in UFC a lot stepping on the knee of the opponents. Yes, I rely on UFC a lot to find what is useful in real life fighting. It is closest to a real fight compare all the rest. MMA fighting is the ultimate proving ground.
 
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JowGaWolf

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Amazing for a post with 132 responses. I'm getting CBS (circular brain syndrome.) ;)
Just know that with Wang, A Circular punch is going to be in the mix some where. He wouldn't be Wang without it lol
 

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Alan0354

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Impatient got the best of me, I went to the garage and did a 4 minute session of circle punches, I tried what JowGaWolf suggested using the second knuckles hitting thumbs up, I tried two or three punches thumbs down and tried Ridge Hand. The circle punch by JowGaWolf hit the hardest, harder than Ridge Hand, The thumbs down is ABSOLUTELY OUT. It actually hurt my shoulder, it's just not right. Funny why I can hit harder with JowGaWolf punch harder than Ridge Hand even though everything is so close. It just is.

I punch for 4 minutes and force myself to stop, just irritate the skin enough to help building stronger skin without breaking it. Everything is good, just going to do another few minutes tomorrow to slowly build up the skin.

But then when I do the punch on the pole, IT HURTS!!! I really have to do it very gentle right now and take it slowly. My problem with circle punch thumbs up is I supposed to hit with the heel of the palm together with the second knuckles. I cannot do that. This is because this would be very similar to Iron Palm hitting that partly using the heel of the palm also to hit. I still have carpal tunnel on the right hand and that might make it worst. I am trying very hard to avoid surgery. I had surgery on the left hand, took like 6 months to get back to normal regarding to punching and bench press. Also, I don't want to re-injure my left hand either!!! So I have to rely totally on the second knuckle.
 

JowGaWolf

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Impatient got the best of me, I went to the garage and did a 4 minute session of circle punches, I tried what JowGaWolf suggested using the second knuckles hitting thumbs up, I tried two or three punches thumbs down and tried Ridge Hand. The circle punch by JowGaWolf hit the hardest, harder than Ridge Hand, The thumbs down is ABSOLUTELY OUT. It actually hurt my shoulder, it's just not right. Funny why I can hit harder with JowGaWolf punch harder than Ridge Hand even though everything is so close. It just is.

I punch for 4 minutes and force myself to stop, just irritate the skin enough to help building stronger skin without breaking it. Everything is good, just going to do another few minutes tomorrow to slowly build up the skin.

But then when I do the punch on the pole, IT HURTS!!! I really have to do it very gentle right now and take it slowly. My problem with circle punch thumbs up is I supposed to hit with the heel of the palm together with the second knuckles. I cannot do that. This is because this would be very similar to Iron Palm hitting that partly using the heel of the palm also to hit. I still have carpal tunnel on the right hand and that might make it worst. I am trying very hard to avoid surgery. I had surgery on the left hand, took like 6 months to get back to normal regarding to punching and bench press. Also, I don't want to re-injure my left hand either!!! So I have to rely totally on the second knuckle.
This gives me a better idea of what you are doing. You have to hit a softer target because you can't have impact on the palm.

Normally the palm would take some of the impact but because of your injury those knuckles are taking on too much impact so you need something thank your knuckles can sink into like fangs.

The cheap way would be to use a towel taped to your heavy bag you can make it as thick as needed to allow you to hit hard without damaging you knuckles.

Keep in mind that second row of knuckles are more like knives and not hammers. You'll dull the point if you keep stabbing the knife into wood. Those knuckles can only hit hard targets when used with the palm as the point of impact.
 

JowGaWolf

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Stop hitting the pole. You will re-injure yourself. Just work it on a heavy bag. Seriously.
I'm not fond of the hard condition of the hand or knuckles. That's too much like karate. I can still get good conditioning without hitting hard objects. The most that I need from hard conditioning is impact conditioning so that my arm an joints are prepared for the stress from hitting something hard. Human bodies are made of soft flesh. muscle is about as hard as the body gets and very few people are developed to where there muscles are like concreate.
 
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Alan0354

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This gives me a better idea of what you are doing. You have to hit a softer target because you can't have impact on the palm.

Normally the palm would take some of the impact but because of your injury those knuckles are taking on too much impact so you need something thank your knuckles can sink into like fangs.

The cheap way would be to use a towel taped to your heavy bag you can make it as thick as needed to allow you to hit hard without damaging you knuckles.

Keep in mind that second row of knuckles are more like knives and not hammers. You'll dull the point if you keep stabbing the knife into wood. Those knuckles can only hit hard targets when used with the palm as the point of impact.
Actually, I have no problem hitting the heavy bag even after I stuffed it harder on the top part at all. I think I might have problem if I miss the opponent's face and hit the skull!!! People do move back and fore after you commit to a strike, if the opponent dug down a little, I'd be hitting the side of the skull and that will hurt. Thereby I train to hit hard surface.

I might get there starting out hitting lightly on the pole. That's how I started with the knuckles and shin and elbow. Now they can take the hard hit.

Believe me, I am not hitting the pole just to say I can do it. My main fear is the skull, they are as hard as the pole!!! It's better to take a little pain at a time than to hit the skull and disabled for a long time breaking the knuckle.

I learned my lesson, when I was young, I was breaking boards with friends, I broke my knuckle on my right hand, took a long time before I can hit hard even on the kicking bag. I felt the knuckle actually collapsed when I hit the boards( I already wore a thin bag gloves). Wearing a thin bag gloves is like the skin cover the skull.

I am not going crazy like the video you show, I do it for survival, 10 times each hand on each type of strike, once a week, that's it, no crazy stuffs. You can see the picture of my hands, nothing like those people. I am just doing the minimum. I do feel I hit harder after I start hitting the pole, not much, just noticeable. I feel the knuckles and wrist are stronger and not give as much, thereby I hit a little harder.......No magic, just help slightly........Ha ha, not like the hype of iron palm!!! :)......................Yes, I am still bitter about it, it's hindering my circle punch.

Thanks

EDIT: I want to stress, I am not hitting the pole that hard, I'll make a video when I have a chance, nothing like those that trying to show off, this is just for survival.
 
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