What is circle punch?

[Alan0354]

What exactly is circle punch. I went on youtube to look and this is the only one I found and I was told this is not right:

Can anyone show me how to do a circle punch, I never heard of this in my days. I only know hook punch.

Thanks

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I can only attempt to explain what I am seeing in the video. His 'circle punch' generates power in a different way than his 'hook punch'. He seems to be generating power from turning his shoulder and 'whipping' his punch in the circle punch, and his hook punch is a traditional hooking movement but generating power from the hips and arms.

I do not have any exact analogue to refer to in my own style (Isshinryu), but a somewhat similar 'whipping' motion is used in the basic exercise 'Ouchi, Ouchi' (oh-ooch, not owchy). We still generate power from the hips, but we do use the fist as if it were attached to a rope, rather than simply punching in a hooking manner. We call it a 'hook punch', but he seems to call it a 'circle punch'. I would not say he's wrong or right; just a difference in terminology.

Both types of punches can be hard to block with a traditional upper or middle body block, but movement can still defeat them. Moving in towards the punch, deflecting and striking as one moves in, is a good one. Stepping back or to the outside is also good. What you don't want to be is stationary when this type of punch comes in.

 

[JowGaWolf]

@Alan0354

I'm putting together a video now. Trying to find one more session that a recorded about 5 years ago. Hopefully this will hold you over until I can find that last video I need.

This is the fist structure that you want to use for circular punching. I call it a "knocking fist" but the formal name for it is "Hung Fist" This is the same structure that most people would use if they were to make a fist knock on a door. The thumb is naturally move to side so that it's out of the way when the other 4 knuckles strike the wood. You want a firm clinch but you don't want to over do it. The thumb presses down into the finger helping to lock the fist.

Striking areas for this fist are circled. The top knuckles go into all areas side of the face, in front of the face and under the chin like an upper cut. Those top knuckles are what I use when doing my upper cuts. I use the standard knuckles that aren't shown in this picture as well, but hitting with these knuckles give me a longer range.. The palm is used for the harder parts of the skull. This is 2 of the five possible striking areas for this fist structure. The thumb knuckle can be used as well but it takes conditioning that I don't do so won't include it here.

This entire area when used together can be used to strike hard parts and soft parts of the head. This area is uses for striking the sides of the head, face, and the top of the head. When you make this type of fist and hold this side of the fist to your head you can feel how your fist covers the side of your head and the larger area that makes contact to your head. That larger area is enlarges the impact point and greatly lowers the risk of breaking your hand and knuckles.

You see some volleyball players use this same striking surface to serve the ball. Thumb is to the side so that it doesn't get in the way of the impact. If you make a common fist where the thumb is wrapped around the knuckles the you'll break your thumb upon impact. Which is why you see some people turn the thumb to try to hit with the knuckles that they normally hit it.

You can see that fist formation here as well. Thumb to the side. I use the volley ball pictures here because the hand actually travels along the same circular path that a punch would. The only different is the point of impact. In Circular systems the point of impact would be where her striking arm would be. It's chin height, which means that's about where your opponent's chin would be. And those top knuckles that I circle would go under the chin.

Hopefully this will give you some understanding of the fist formation and the striking areas. To use

 

[JowGaWolf]

These are the knuckles you want to drive into the side of the face. With a circular punch there's no nee to do all of that pivoting. Simply use your waist to turn the punch and those 4 top knuckles that I showed will be all that you need to break a jaw. Remember this is a strike to the jaw where it hinges. You can also use it hit the front of the face, but that's a different type of circular punch so I'm only sticking to what's here.

If you pivot like a boxer then the weight of the swing will throw you off balance. This is the structure that you want. With circular punches your wrist doesn't have to be straight. If your wrist is straight then the force of impact will bend your wrist back and it will break. If you are hitting with larger area of the palm and knuckles together, then the wrist can be a little straighter but not completely straight.

 

[Alan0354]

Thanks

What I really want to know is whether to punch thumbs up or thumbs down.

I get used to thumbs up all along like a very long hook punch. I only heard of circle punch on this forum and I was curious. I tried it today both thumbs up and down, thumbs up like normal hook punch feels more natural and I can still generate enough power. I just want to hear what people say here.

 

[Alan0354]

@Alan0354

I'm putting together a video now. Trying to find one more session that a recorded about 5 years ago. Hopefully this will hold you over until I can find that last video I need.

This is the fist structure that you want to use for circular punching. I call it a "knocking fist" but the formal name for it is "Hung Fist" This is the same structure that most people would use if they were to make a fist knock on a door. The thumb is naturally move to side so that it's out of the way when the other 4 knuckles strike the wood. You want a firm clinch but you don't want to over do it. The thumb presses down into the finger helping to lock the fist.
View attachment 26982

Striking areas for this fist are circled. The top knuckles go into all areas side of the face, in front of the face and under the chin like an upper cut. Those top knuckles are what I use when doing my upper cuts. I use the standard knuckles that aren't shown in this picture as well, but hitting with these knuckles give me a longer range.. The palm is used for the harder parts of the skull. This is 2 of the five possible striking areas for this fist structure. The thumb knuckle can be used as well but it takes conditioning that I don't do so won't include it here.
View attachment 26983


This entire area when used together can be used to strike hard parts and soft parts of the head. This area is uses for striking the sides of the head, face, and the top of the head. When you make this type of fist and hold this side of the fist to your head you can feel how your fist covers the side of your head and the larger area that makes contact to your head. That larger area is enlarges the impact point and greatly lowers the risk of breaking your hand and knuckles.
View attachment 26984

You see some volleyball players use this same striking surface to serve the ball. Thumb is to the side so that it doesn't get in the way of the impact. If you make a common fist where the thumb is wrapped around the knuckles the you'll break your thumb upon impact. Which is why you see some people turn the thumb to try to hit with the knuckles that they normally hit it.
View attachment 26985

You can see that fist formation here as well. Thumb to the side. I use the volley ball pictures here because the hand actually travels along the same circular path that a punch would. The only different is the point of impact. In Circular systems the point of impact would be where her striking arm would be. It's chin height, which means that's about where your opponent's chin would be. And those top knuckles that I circle would go under the chin.
View attachment 26986

Hopefully this will give you some understanding of the fist formation and the striking areas. To use

WOW!!! I did not know this. Never know to strike with part of the hand like this. I have to try this to see.

Thanks

 

[JowGaWolf]

Before we get into circular punches. Hooks and uppercuts are all circular punches. When long fist striking are shorted they turn into hooks but still take a circular path.

Here's the video. You can see me make a circular motion with my arm as I move to my sons flank and hit him with a circular punch to the back of the head. When I train my son I don't train him sports focused. I train him to go for the areas that will end the fight the quickest. This is why I'm not putting my guard up because at this point, no guard will save me from that impact. This punch is with a horizontal thumb hitting with the knuckles that we normally strike with. That first set of knuckles closes to the hand.

Because Circular punches take longer than straight punches, it is a good idea to step off the center line. Stepping off the centerline is actually required in this case as I cannot get to the back of the head unless I reposition.

 

[JowGaWolf]

What I really want to know is whether to punch thumbs up or thumbs down.

It's not a thumbs up or thumbs down issue. The guy in your video only made it an issue when he said to punch with thumbs down. If you strike with the correct knuckles, then your thumb will never be down, hence, thumbs down will never come into the conversation. But to answer this question. Never thumbs down.

WOW!!! I did not know this. Never know to strike with part of the hand like this. I have to try this to see.

Don't hit the heavy bag with those knuckles. You want to hit punching mits with those knuckles or a lighter bag. An adult head weighs about 11 lbs so you don't want to hit anything that's heavier than that with these set of knuckles. You can how ever hit heavy bag with the larger area the palm, but don't try to kill it because I don't know if your punching structure is correct. You can injure your elbow or shoulder if the structure of your arm isn't correct.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Here you can see some of the circular punches from long fist against a heavy bag. They look like forearm swings but the aren't He's hitting with that that large are of the palm and knuckles that I highlighted earlier.

Play the video at the slowest speed and you can see where that area of the fists impacts the bag.

 

[Alan0354]

It's not a thumbs up or thumbs down issue. The guy in your video only made it an issue when he said to punch with thumbs down. If you strike with the correct knuckles, then your thumb will never be down, hence, thumbs down will never come into the conversation. But to answer this question. Never thumbs down.


Don't hit the heavy bag with those knuckles. You want to hit punching mits with those knuckles or a lighter bag. An adult head weighs about 11 lbs so you don't want to hit anything that's heavier than that with these set of knuckles. You can how ever hit heavy bag with the larger area the palm, but don't try to kill it because I don't know if your punching structure is correct. You can injure your elbow or shoulder if the structure of your arm isn't correct.

I tried, it hits pretty good. I just need to condition my knuckles. I practice punching 6"X6" wood pole every week for years, but with the big knuckles, elbow and kick lightly, so I am used to hitting hard objects. I mainly need to ease in because of skin of the knuckle as I don't hit with that part of the knuckle ever.

It feels more natural hitting it this way. I don't see any potential injuring elbow and other part of the body.

Thanks

 

[JowGaWolf]

@Alan0354 This is light sparring. Circular punch. Motion blur shows where there is movement. The more blur the more movement that is going on. The areas that are fairly clear is where there is little movement. This is the point of impact. Thumbs up, targeting the jag where it hinges.

This is when I was learning how to use this technique. I didn't cut a 45 degree angle to her side because then the punch naturally lands on the back of the head.

take note no pivot needed. Power is in the waist for this punch not the hip.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I tried, it hits pretty good. I just need to condition my knuckles. I practice punching 6"X6" wood pole every week for years, but with the big knuckles, elbow and kick lightly, so I am used to hitting hard objects. I mainly need to ease in because of skin of the knuckle as I don't hit with that part of the knuckle ever.

It feels more natural hitting it this way. I don't see any potential injuring elbow and other part of the body.

Thanks

That's good to hear you arm is conditioned to hitting hard objects. Now I don't have worry about that part. So with those top knuckles I circled. Ideally you want to hit something you can swing through. Thing of those knuckles as stabbing into the target. With the larger surface area (palm+kunckes), that's your tool for the harder and heavier targets.

Different person same punch. The most difficult thing about this punch is controlling the power. If my sparring partner punches faster then I have to move this punch faster as well. When I do that the weight and power of the punch comes with the speed. If I don't add the necessary speed and power then this punch doesn't disrupt my opponent. Depending on your size and how well you can flow with circular punches knees start to buckle at 30% - 40% power. Getting dazed and disoriented happens at 50%. I think it's like this because the punch travels outside of the field of the vision and they never see it coming.

This is why this guy gets hit wide open. He just didn't see it coming as I wasn't trying to hit my fastest. I was actually trying to find the sweet spot where I could hit fast enough without adding power. This was a weak punch at 10% and he was over running me with baby taps.

Circular punches don't have the benefit of stopping forward movement of the opponent, so you have to basically hit them hard enough that they go flying to the side lol.

 

[drop bear]

Thanks

What I really want to know is whether to punch thumbs up or thumbs down.

I get used to thumbs up all along like a very long hook punch. I only heard of circle punch on this forum and I was curious. I tried it today both thumbs up and down, thumbs up like normal hook punch feels more natural and I can still generate enough power. I just want to hear what people say here.

Yeah. It is basically the continuation of an overhand.

And it pops your elbow up if you want to try to sneak it over someone's guard. Where a hook potentially goes inside someone's guard. For simplicity's sake.

There are reach issues and angles and stuff that you can play with as well.

You can do either with or without gloves.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

@Alan0354

I'm putting together a video now. Trying to find one more session that a recorded about 5 years ago. Hopefully this will hold you over until I can find that last video I need.

This is the fist structure that you want to use for circular punching. I call it a "knocking fist" but the formal name for it is "Hung Fist" This is the same structure that most people would use if they were to make a fist knock on a door. The thumb is naturally move to side so that it's out of the way when the other 4 knuckles strike the wood. You want a firm clinch but you don't want to over do it. The thumb presses down into the finger helping to lock the fist.
View attachment 26982

That is an Isshinryu fist. It is delivered vertically. The top two knuckles are used for striking in a straight punch. The bottom of the hand (left side in the photo above) is used for tetsui or hammer fist techniques. You strike with the first knuckles where the fingers join the hand, not the knuckes seen in the above photo. The thumb on top provides stability. It helps keep the wrist straight when delivering power.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yeah. It is basically the continuation of an overhand.

And it pops your elbow up if you want to try to sneak it over someone's guard. Where a hook potentially goes inside someone's guard. For simplicity's sake.

There are reach issues and angles and stuff that you can play with as well.

You can do either with or without gloves.

Wow. he put all of his weight into that one. He must have seen that opening a mile a way and knew it would be there.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Here you can see some of the circular punches from long fist against a heavy bag. They look like forearm swings but the aren't He's hitting with that that large are of the palm and knuckles that I highlighted earlier.

Play the video at the slowest speed and you can see where that area of the fists impacts the bag.

You said this clip is long fist punch. But this clip is Choy Lay Fu punch.

- The long fist system is a northern CMA system.
- The Choy Lay Fu system is a southern CMA system.

There are quite different. Are you sure you are talking about the "long fist" system?

The long fist system doesn't punch with knuckles. The long fist system punches with the "flat space" between the 2nd and 3rd finger joints.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That is an Isshinryu fist.

Nah it's a Hung Fist. lol.. I'm pretty sure of it. lol.

.

Just giving you a hard time because I know we use the same fist. This is also a Isshinryu fist as well. Sometimes 2 things are the same thing with a different name.

Bill the only reason you are cool with me is because you use this fist lol. I think we are the only 2 out of this forum who uses this fist structure.

That is an Isshinryu fist. It is delivered vertically. The top two knuckles are used for striking in a straight punch. The bottom of the hand (left side in the photo above) is used for tetsui or hammer fist techniques. You strike with the first knuckles where the fingers join the hand, not the knuckes seen in the above photo. The thumb on top provides stability. It helps keep the wrist straight when delivering power.

This sounds like a linear punch. We use the same knuckles that you describe with the same fist, but only with linear punches. In Hung Ga, Choy Li Fut, and Jow Ga and some other circular systems. This fist uses 5 strike surfaces.

1. The frist knuckles, The one that you described for linear punches
2. The second knuckles, The ones' I circled.
3. The base of the fist (the one you described for hammer fists)
4. The total surface of the palm and the knuckle
5. The thumb.

I can flow in and out of linear strikes, hammer fists, and hit with various sides of the fist without changing structure. For me personally, I think this is a better fist than the common fist that most people simply because of all of the options for striking.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You said this clip is long fist punch. But this clip is Choy Lay Fu punch.

- The long fist system is a northern CMA system.
- The Choy Lay Fu is a southern CMA system.

There are quite different. Are you sure you are talking about the "long fist" system?

Last time I checked Choy Lay Fut and Hung Gar were considered long fist systems as well. Unless someone lied to me and to some Sifu's

This is from a Hung Ga School site"
"Hung was also schooled in Crane style boxing by Fang Yung-chun, who later became his wife. The Crane boxing system stressed one legged stances, pecking, wing and beak attacks, as well as short and long fist movements."

From the best of my knowledge there are southern systems that have northern components. I know Jow Ga definitely has it in there.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Last time I checked Choy Lay Fut and Hung Gar were considered long fist systems as well. Unless someone lied to me and to some Sifu's

This is from a Hung Ga School site"
"Hung was also schooled in Crane style boxing by Fang Yung-chun, who later became his wife. The Crane boxing system stressed one legged stances, pecking, wing and beak attacks, as well as short and long fist movements."

The Choy Lay Fut system is a combination of Choy family, Lay family, and the Buddhism. It's 100% southern CMA. Someone said that the southern Hung system came from the northern Hung Chuan, but there was no proof for it - Hung Chuan had moved to the south.

The long fist is trained by Chinese Muslim. In China, only Muslim people wear hat like that.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The Choy Lay Fut system is a combination of Choy family, Lay family, and the Buddhism. It's 100% southern CMA. Someone said that the southern Hung system came from the northern Hung Chuan, but there was no proof for it - Hung Chuan had moved to the south.

The long fist is trained by Chinese Muslim. In China, only Muslim people wear hat like that.

We probably need a Choy Lay Fut person.

When I watch that video, my reference points kept going back to some of the things I've seen in Jow Ga, which doesn't help.

Didn't do deep on the validity of the website Source: What You Should Know About Choy Li Fut Kung Fu
"There are several types of hand strikes within the art, including those that connect from the fist, open hand, claw hand and more. Kicks are also used in Choy Li Fut. The Long Fist and Buddhist Palm boxing styles are taught as part of this style as well. "

This is stuff that I've often heard from people who do Choy Li Fut maybe there is some cross over. A teacher that knows both northern and southern systems?