What is circle punch?

[Alan0354]

HI Guys

Internet was down for 2 days, finally it's up.

I am not going to get into the discussion of punching forehead and all as I am no expert and I never have to punch someone out side of sparing. I'll take your words.

BUT one thing I know, I am NOT afraid of punching the forehead or skull of the opponent. I always punch heavy bag bare knuckles for the last 30+ years. One of my bag is 100lbs and I have to stuff the top part harder with old fillings taken from the old bags before I dump it away. My bags are NOT soft. I have seen punch bags that's like air and dent in like 4" or more when I punch. Never have I injure my hands, no wrapping needed. I credit that to punching poles that make my fist and wrist stronger. Whether you guys agree or not, This is how I roll and it works for me.

I am sure not afraid of punching the head, I am quite sure I'd rattle his brain more than hurting my knuckles. As I said, I punch poles not for show, but for strengthening the bones and wrist.

When it comes to bags, I always like the good old EverLast 70lbs canvas bag. Just need to stuff the top part and it's reasonably hard, not like some of the boxing bags, man, they are whimpy. Problem is it's hard to find canvas bags anymore. Tuffware used to have it and it's good, then they changed to those black nylon or whatever cover. I broke two bags in two weeks. I got my refund back, but just the hazels of hook and unhook the bag, drive it back and fore. Now both my bags are full of cracks and holes, I keep taping it up. I need new bags but don't know what to buy.

Can you imagine, you wrap hands and wear gloves and punch everyday, then when in self defense situation, the first punch you throw and you break your hand and twist your wrist, what good does that do? Say pretty please, let me wrap my hands before we fight?!!!)

 

[JowGaWolf]

It isn’t only the gloves, but also the wraps that support and protect the wrists and knuckles. That lets you slam away as hard as you can, without injury. But the wrists and hands then do not develop the strength to withstand landing those punches without that support, and leaves the door open to injury. If one wants to be able to defend themselves outside of a competition ring, then time on the heavy bag without wraps and gloves is important. Develop that ability to strike effectively without injury, without the support and protection.

Exactly. This is one of my classmates from many years ago punching the heavy bag. He has punched the heavy bag many times before so I guess his mind was drifting and he landed that punch wrong. His wrist folded. There's no tape to hold the structure. Drive the power of the punch at the wrong angle and it will exit out of the wrist causing it to bend like this.

 

[Flying Crane]

Exactly. This is one of my classmates from many years ago punching the heavy bag. He has punched the heavy bag many times before so I guess his mind was drifting and he landed that punch wrong. His wrist folded. There's no tape to hold the structure. Drive the power of the punch at the wrong angle and it will exit out of the wrist causing it to bend like this.

View attachment 27134

I’ve done that plenty of times myself, probably every session on the bag. Part of that education is that you learn to sense when that is happening, and pull back before injury. You develop the strength and learn the proper angles and structure, and the sensitivity to the problems that may arise. Very important stuff. You learn to punch hard, without injury, even when it goes somewhat awry.

 

[Alan0354]

Exactly. This is one of my classmates from many years ago punching the heavy bag. He has punched the heavy bag many times before so I guess his mind was drifting and he landed that punch wrong. His wrist folded. There's no tape to hold the structure. Drive the power of the punch at the wrong angle and it will exit out of the wrist causing it to bend like this.

View attachment 27134

I don't know how hard is that bag, my guess it's not that hard, you can see the whole bag bent. I know a lot of bags are like this, very whimpy. I am sure he won't bent my bags and dent in like this.

I am not that good, I never run into this bending my wrist. I don't know how hard I can punch as I don't have a way to measure. I know I am not a light puncher. I don't have people holding the bag like this for me, my bags swing particularly when I mix kicking and punching and I do two bags alternatively. You can never concentrate, punching a perfect punch every time. BUT that's the whole point, that you can aim, punch a reasonable power punch under imperfect condition where target is moving around and you don't have time to set up. I really do NOT think it's useful to have people holding the bag for you and you take the time to set up and try to do a perfect punch so you don't injure yourself. That's a false sense of achievement.

To me, I credit this to pole punching, knock on wood, I never once buckle my wrist like this. Particular I punch relax, I do notice there are times when I contact the bag, my wrist is still soft, but never have problem.

I particularly like the Choy Li Fut guy in the video you show. You can see he's relax, penetrating the bag. I have that bag, I can attest it's not soft particular in the mid section he's punching. It's going to be very hard for anyone to bend that bag, unlike some of those boxing bags that's like punching air.........looks good though that you dent the bag 4" in and all. It's like punching air.

 

[JowGaWolf]

When it comes to bags, I always like the good old EverLast 70lbs canvas bag. Just need to stuff the top part and it's reasonably hard, not like some of the boxing bags, man, they are whimpy. Problem is it's hard to find canvas bags anymore.

You can still get them but they don't sell them stuffed. They just sell the bag and you have to stuff it yourself.

 

[Alan0354]

You can still get them but they don't sell them stuffed. They just sell the bag and you have to stuff it yourself.

I know, but it's not that easy. They put sand in it, like the Tuffwear, I broke two of them, it had a tube inside to hold the sand, the tube got punched and kicked out of shape, it will not survive in a new bag. I had bag leaking sand before!!!

That's the reason you see my bags are all taped up, pretty soon, they'll have more tape than the original cover!!! I know I can still get the leather EverLast bag, but $$$$!!! I punched a red bag in my friend's home, it felt quite solid like my canvas bag. I believe it's 70lbs also.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don't know how hard is that bag, my guess it's not that hard, you can see the whole bag bent. I know a lot of bags are like this, very whimpy. I am sure he won't bent my bags and dent in like this.

I don't know about whimpy. I just know it's a heavy bag. It's wasn't the hardest bag that I've hit. But it had the correct amount of give which is important. I have a Whimpy puching bag filled with mostly plastic bags. You can hit that bag as hard as you want and the bags will just absorb the energy as if you threw a weak punch. No one in the school would hit this bag with the same force.

I think you just like hitting hard objects. That seem to be where your preference is, I'm not sure why. But I'll explain some benefits of punching a bag that gives.

Benefits of punching a bag that gives.
1. You can punch it more often and harder than a bag that doesn't give. This allows you develop punching power through structure and conditioning. If you are always punching something that is hard then you'll never develop punching power. You'll just end up with hard knuckles and weak punches. You have experienced this yourself. Iron palm didn't make you hit harder.

2. You can get instant feedback on your punches. When you punch a bag that gives, you will get a quick glimpse of the impact that your fist is making. If it's small dent that means you getting good impact with the knuckle. If you see a big dent then you know you are hitting with mostly the flat of your fist. For a fraction of a second you can see how power changes affects the impact. This also trains the eyes to recognize similar effects when you hit flesh during sparring.

3. Bags that give will keep the energy from going back into your arm and causing unnecessary stress on the bones, muscles, and, joints (ligaments and tendons).

4. Bags that give develop a soft spot. The bag starts off as hard but if you keep hitting the same spot then you notice that the bag becomes softer. Hitting the same spot helps develop accuracy through touch. It's one thing be able to hit something you see and it's something totally different to feel.

5. A bag that gives also provides feedback that can be captured on video. You can analyze the punches and the power by what the bag looks like. For example the picture below is a a good punch, in terms of power delivery. If you look closely at this picture you can see where the bag jumps off the first row of knuckles, You can see how force was delivered into the bag. Effective and powerful punches will make the bag react differently than weak and less effective punches. Being able to see this allows you to make changes and corrections as needed. It helps you to identify things you may not be aware of.

6. Punching bags that give don't just condition the knuckle, but they also condition in between the knuckles

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don't have people holding the bag like this for me, my bags swing particularly

Bag holders help reduce bag spin and swing. When you hit to the left or right of a bag it will spin. This means the punch landed off center. The bag holder also provides feedback on the strikes. They can tell if your punch was weak or not by what they feel through the bag.

Do you need someone to hold the heavy bag? Nope. But it helps when you got someone who can read the feedback from back. I've held the heavy bag from people who thought they were killing the bag. But on my end, I just wasn't feeling what they the were feeling. To me the punches felt weak even thought the sound was loud when the fist landed on the bag. Then I've had people who hit really ard hit the bag and it doesn't make that loud slapping noise. Right away I know they are driving that knuckle into the bag with force because it feels different than a hard punch that doesn't do it.

This is a good video about punching a heavy back. This covers some things that we have already discussed. I'm just posting because it's a good explanation with visual.

 

[Alan0354]

I like to punch hard bags because the head is hard!!! Even if you punch the chest, it's not soft, it's at least as hard as the hard bags. It's just common sense that if you want to punch, you better get your fist ready to hit something hard like the skull and forehead.

We have those type of whimpy bags in the gym where I went to before, they are heavy and big, but they are soft. They offer no resistance at all. Apparently they don't last either, they must be changing the bag every two to three months. It's former Gold's gym, not a boxing gym. I don't see people punching it hardly. Those vinyl cover just don't last.

I like the video you posted:

This, I consider good punches. I know this bag as I have a few over the years. You can see he dig into the bag, the sound is crisp on every punch. The bag doesn't move that much, you do NOT need someone to hold the bag. This show the energy is penetrated into the bag instead of pushing the bag around.

Only thing I can criticize is he punch at shoulder level, it's the easiest way to punch. You should punch to the head!!! It's NOT so easy, believe me. Try it. Particular you punch up to a taller person.

I absolutely do not want people to hold the bag for me, it's everything against my believe. I believe in being able to punch in the most imperfect condition and still be able to land a decent punch, not have everything perfect so I can look good punching. Like I said many times, I intentionally have two bags so I go back and fore, kick it and let is swing to train to be able to acquire the target faster, punch with reasonable precision and good penetration.

As for stress punching a hard bag, When I was in the class for almost 3 years, I went there 3 times a week, I went there 3 hours before the class and working non stop on the heavy bag. He had the Tuffware canvas bag that's very good and hard enough. Since that time, I always have a heavy bag and practice every week even though I don't practice that long. This continue from 1984 till today, I never have wrist and knuckle problem from that. I cannot see any good in punching a soft bag. I can't help but to repeat, the only time I injure myself is the SCAM iron palm.

My teacher put a lot of stress on punching, how to listen to the sound of a good punch. For a good puncher punching one bag, the bag should not even move much, you don't need anyone to hold the bag. If the bag moves a lot if you only punch one bag without kicking, you are not punching right.

 

[JowGaWolf]

punch a reasonable power punch under imperfect condition where target is moving around and you don't have time to set up.

It's not up to your opponent create a "perfect target." That's what your techniques do. You don't punch when the situation is not good for punching. You don't force your punch in. You set up your opponent so you can strike him when he's least able to defend against it. If you do this then you will have your "Perfect punch"

Punch when the timing is right, not when you feel like it. If you do this then you should have a high percentage of good punches that land. If the timing is never right then you'll need to go work on your techniques more.

You get mileage when you aren't forcing punches and strikes in. You get better results when you use your techniques to set up your openings.

 

[Alan0354]

It's not up to your opponent create a "perfect target." That's what your techniques do. You don't punch when the situation is not good for punching. You don't force your punch in. You set up your opponent so you can strike him when he's least able to defend against it. If you do this then you will have your "Perfect punch"

Punch when the timing is right, not when you feel like it. If you do this then you should have a high percentage of good punches that land. If the timing is never right then you'll need to go work on your techniques more.

You get mileage when you aren't forcing punches and strikes in. You get better results when you use your techniques to set up your openings.

It's easy to say doing armchair quarterbacking. You cannot assume the opponent is not as good. You wait for an opening, it might never come.

Even when you think you have a perfect timing, once you commit, the opponent might move and you hit the wrong place. It's too idealistic to think you can hit it right every time. That's where conditioning comes into play. Like I said, I don't think I would be afraid of punching on the forehead because I put in my work in strengthening my knuckles and wrist.

Look at the UFC again, look at how good those people move, you seriously think you can time and land a solid hit every time on those people. You would be lucky to land one out of 10 if that. You think the video I posted of the guy completely broke his legs didn't know how to kick? I bet he is good enough to have his own school in order to make it up to pay-per-view!!! You think we ordinary people stand a chance to last a round inside the octagon? He broke his leg completely from trying to do a low kick. This is real world.

Forget UFC, one of our 2nd degree black belt that we consider very good.....got his butt whooped in the KPA match in San Jose back in the 80s. PKA is CHILD'S play compare with UFC. It's a different world!!!

 

[JowGaWolf]

The bag doesn't move that much, you do NOT need someone to hold the bag. This show the energy is penetrated into the bag instead of pushing the bag around.

I like to punch hard bags because the head is hard!!! Even if you punch the chest, it's not soft, it's at least as hard as the hard bags. It's just common sense that if you want to punch, you better get your fist ready to hit something hard like the skull and forehead.

We have those type of whimpy bags in the gym where I went to before, they are heavy and big, but they are soft. They offer no resistance at all. Apparently they don't last either, they must be changing the bag every two to three months. It's former Gold's gym, not a boxing gym. I don't see people punching it hardly. Those vinyl cover just don't last.

I like the video you posted:

This, I consider good punches. I know this bag as I have a few over the years. You can see he dig into the bag, the sound is crisp on every punch. The bag doesn't move that much, you do NOT need someone to hold the bag. This show the energy is penetrated into the bag instead of pushing the bag around.

Only thing I can criticize is he punch at shoulder level, it's the easiest way to punch. You should punch to the head!!! It's NOT so easy, believe me. Try it. Particular you punch up to a taller person.

I absolutely do not want people to hold the bag for me, it's everything against my believe. I believe in being able to punch in the most imperfect condition and still be able to land a decent punch, not have everything perfect so I can look good punching. Like I said many times, I intentionally have two bags so I go back and fore, kick it and let is swing to train to be able to acquire the target faster, punch with reasonable precision and good penetration.

As for stress punching a hard bag, When I was in the class for almost 3 years, I went there 3 times a week, I went there 3 hours before the class and working non stop on the heavy bag. He had the Tuffware canvas bag that's very good and hard enough. Since that time, I always have a heavy bag and practice every week even though I don't practice that long. This continue from 1984 till today, I never have wrist and knuckle problem from that. I cannot see any good in punching a soft bag.

My teacher put a lot of stress on punching, how to listen to the sound of a good punch. For a good puncher punching one bag, the bag should not even move much, you don't need anyone to hold the bag. If the bag moves a lot if you only punch one bag without kicking, you are not punching right.

I wasn't impressed. He had some good strikes. I'll give him that, but I can tell that he still needs to work on his punching technique, and at the time of the video he probably knew that himself. Had he punched the bag without gloves we would have seen the damage to his hands. There was a lot of punches that didn't go directly into the bag. Lots of punches that caused the bag to spin. There were a lot of times where his punch when in straight but didn't come back straight.

Then there was this punch. There's that big wrist bend that happens when anyone punches with bad wrist structure.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It's easy to say doing armchair quarterbacking. You cannot assume the opponent is not as good. You wait for an opening, it might never come.

I'm not arm chair quaterbacking. I always try to speak from my experience. If I speak of my own experience then I always know what is possible for me and what is within my experiences. For me, after sparring with enough people I began picking up skill level really quick including that feeling that someone wants to put me on the ground to finish the fight on the ground. I've been fortunate and blessed enough to not have been attacked out of the blue. I've never been in a street fight that I didn't think I could either stalemate or fight my way out of.

Maybe it's the way that I look that helps protect me. Most of my wife's friends are intimidated by me. Someone is always asking her if she's afraid of me based on how I look. When I was younger, I looked weak. But as I aged fewer people wanted to take it that far with me. Most people who can actually beat me up have no interest in doing so. That's been my experience.

Even when you think you have a perfect timing, once you commit, the opponent might move and you hit the wrong place.

The only time this has happened to me is when someone was more skilled than I was or faster than I was. At that point hitting their forehead was the least of my problem. When this happens someone is usually eating a punch or a kick from a counter attack.

Remember most people who break their hands were trying to hit the head and succeeded in doing so., Which is why they broke their hand. The timing was perfect,

Most people who have bad timing are usually the ones getting counter attacked. This is what bad timing usually looks like.

 

[Alan0354]

I wasn't impressed. He had some good strikes. I'll give him that, but I can tell that he still needs to work on his punching technique, and at the time of the video he probably knew that himself. Had he punched the bag without gloves we would have seen the damage to his hands. There was a lot of punches that didn't go directly into the bag. Lots of punches that caused the bag to spin. There were a lot of times where his punch when in straight but didn't come back straight.

Then there was this punch. There's that big wrist bend that happens when anyone punches with bad wrist structure.
View attachment 27139

Like I said, when you do a sequence of punches, particular you hook, the bag will spin some. He sure punch hard enough and with a lot of speed and he doesn't have someone to hold the bag either.

His jab is very stiff, from the bag moving, it happens. To me, this is MORE realistic that people move and you are going to miss.

Wait until you actually kick and punch the bag, it will spin and move even more. Then it's up to YOU to be good enough to to punch straight in. That's why I work hard to punch 2 bags so they move and all and try to have a good hit. This, you cannot practice with people holding the bag for you.

 

[Alan0354]

I'm not arm chair quaterbacking. I always try to speak from my experience. If I speak of my own experience then I always know what is possible for me and what is within my experiences. For me, after sparring with enough people I began picking up skill level really quick including that feeling that someone wants to put me on the ground to finish the fight on the ground. I've been fortunate and blessed enough to not have been attacked out of the blue. I've never been in a street fight that I didn't think I could either stalemate or fight my way out of.

Maybe it's the way that I look that helps protect me. Most of my wife's friends are intimidated by me. Someone is always asking her if she's afraid of me based on how I look. When I was younger, I looked weak. But as I aged fewer people wanted to take it that far with me. Most people who can actually beat me up have no interest in doing so. That's been my experience.


The only time this has happened to me is when someone was more skilled than I was or faster than I was. At that point hitting their forehead was the least of my problem. When this happens someone is usually eating a punch or a kick from a counter attack.

Remember most people who break their hands were trying to hit the head and succeeded in doing so., Which is why they broke their hand. The timing was perfect,

Most people who have bad timing are usually the ones getting counter attacked. This is what bad timing usually looks like.

Maybe you are that good, I am not and I doubt many people are. I believe in practicing for worst case where I miss and still can survive. I don't count on situation being perfect and forget all the prevention like strengthening the knuckles and wrist.

This is more important to me in stick fight where I have a thread on how to prevent the stick from flying off my hands if I miss or accidentally hit something in the surrounding. Of cause the easy answer is DON'T MISS!!! but this is real world AND I am not that good. This is where I spent a lot of time lately. I learn how to do casting, pull back the stick like punch, don't go wild. I even design a loop with rope to go around my wrist. I plan for real life imperfect situation and ways I can recover if the worst case happens. I assume the other guy is better than me and I just want to survive in the self defense situation.

 

[Flying Crane]

I guess I don’t practice for the best or the worst case scenario. I just practice. Period.

I practice to land hard strikes, consistently. Sometimes that means I steady the bag between each strike, so I can really focus on form and structure and delivering the power. Other times I let the bag swing more so I can work a bit on randomness and timing. But none of this has to do with it being either worst or best case scenario. Or, all of it does. Either way is fine. It is just practicing. It all comes together.

I think a lot of people overthink this stuff.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Look at the UFC again, look at how good those people move, you seriously think you can time and land a solid hit every time on those people.

I'm flattered that people always think I'm so good that my first challenge fight should be against someone who trains to fight like I go to work. This assumption that people like me and you will one day run into a UFC professional fighter and actually have a competitive fight is very unrealistic. You may spar with them, but someone like you and me and some of the others on here aren't going to be fighting someone of that skill level anytime soon and if we did. Having hard knuckles isn't going to give us an advantage in the fight.

If you or I would fight a professional MMA fighter, then that will just prove my point. The MMA fighter will set up his punches and we'll eat them. A professional boxer would do the same. Professional boxers throw 55 - 60 punches a round. Do you think you will last that many punches. I don't think you can. I don't think I can. The reason way is because between punch 1 -10 there will be a series of punches that land solid and it's going to be a high accuracy percentage. We see this all the time in street fights where one fighter is more skilled than another. There's literally videos on youtube that show this.

According one of the members here. Fight Bite is a higher risk than breaking the hand on the skull. One is more likely to punch a tooth, than the forehead. Punching upward into a taller person's face with a jab seems like a good opportunity for this type of injury.

I'm going to change my signature to
"Everyone thinks I'm so good with fighting, that I should fight a professional MMA fighter to prove my point." Talk about skipping the ranks.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I guess I don’t practice for the best or the worst case scenario. I just practice. Period.

I practice to land hard strikes, consistently. Sometimes that means I steady the bag between each strike, so I can really focus on form and structure and delivering the power. Other times I let the bag swing more so I can work a bit on randomness and timing. But none of this has to do with it being either worst or best case scenario. Or, all of it does. Either way is fine. It is just practicing. It all comes together.

I think a lot of people overthink this stuff.

I'm the same way.

Tough fists, hard punches, and hard kicks don't matter if a person can't land them. A missed punch is a wasted punch and wasted energy. If a person is good enough to land a punch then they should be good enough to be accurate with them.

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm the same way.

Tough fists, hard punches, and hard kicks don't matter if a person can't land them. A missed punch is a wasted punch and wasted energy. If a person is good enough to land a punch then they should be good enough to be accurate with them.

And you don’t know if you are in the best of worst case scenario, or somewhere in between, while it is happening. And probably not after, either. It Can always be worse than it is.

 

[Alan0354]

I'm flattered that people always think I'm so good that my first challenge fight should be against someone who trains to fight like I go to work. This assumption that people like me and you will one day run into a UFC professional fighter and actually have a competitive fight is very unrealistic. You may spar with them, but someone like you and me and some of the others on here aren't going to be fighting someone of that skill level anytime soon and if we did. Having hard knuckles isn't going to give us an advantage in the fight.

If you or I would fight a professional MMA fighter, then that will just prove my point. The MMA fighter will set up his punches and we'll eat them. A professional boxer would do the same. Professional boxers throw 55 - 60 punches a round. Do you think you will last that many punches. I don't think you can. I don't think I can. The reason way is because between punch 1 -10 there will be a series of punches that land solid and it's going to be a high accuracy percentage. We see this all the time in street fights where one fighter is more skilled than another. There's literally videos on youtube that show this.

According one of the members here. Fight Bite is a higher risk than breaking the hand on the skull. One is more likely to punch a tooth, than the forehead. Punching upward into a taller person's face with a jab seems like a good opportunity for this type of injury.
View attachment 27141

I'm going to change my signature to
"Everyone thinks I'm so good with fighting, that I should fight a professional MMA fighter to prove my point." Talk about skipping the ranks.

Ha ha, I think this guy still feel better than the guy that got punched on the teeth!!! It likely be a very expensive make over on the teeth. Take it from one that had a lot of oral surgery, $3,000/implant. Whole procedure takes about 3months. Insurance likely won't cover it.

I can't say for sure, but I think if you punch canvas bag bare knuckle regularly, I don't think the fist will be this bad after punching teeth. My hand really doesn't show much from punching bags bare knuckle, but the skin on the knuckles are tougher than the rest, it can take some beating.