What gets my goat

Zero

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This really builds on Judo Champions last post re sport TKD/MA etc.

What bugs me is the increasing amount of private trainers in gyms that are teaching their clients MA or boxing. Sure, combat-cardio and cardio-boxing and the like can appear as a joke to a martial artist but at least it should be pretty clear that it is just a form of work-out/cardio and can be an effective way of staying or getting in shape (although I always wondered why not do boxing or karate and then just simply run for your base fitness training - but not everyone likes fighting or putting the time into that I guess).

But what I have been seeing for a while when I go to train in the gym at lunch is more than one fitness/private trainer "teaching" boxing to their client (and one guy who is pretty suspect teaching kickboxing). Several things annoy me: (i) it is clear to any boxer or anyone who has trained with or fought boxers that these trainers have no boxing background and have only gone thru some two-hour crash course seminar on boxing; (ii) it is not presented as merely a cardio workout; (iii) the skills imparted (focus pad, bag-work and ring work/sparring) is appalling.

These people are paying good money and are picking up dangerous punching techniques (ie broken wrist material) and shoddy applications. If these people, and I think many do, think they are learning how to box, then it is a joke and a travisty! Their trainers have no experience, physical or mental, about how to really fight! Maybe the clients do not want to go to a dingy boxing club or training dungeon but I have seen a few with their trainers who seem to think they are training in the real McCoy.

Is anyone else coming across this? Sure, why should we care, we should just get on with our own stuff and training, but these trainers seem a bit like imposters. A trainer should be teaching good technique in whatever it is, be it pilates to kettle bells, to throwing a punch.
 

Steve

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I don't disagree, but I'll say that it goes both ways. While some fitness trainers get carried away with their cardio boxing/tae bo stuff and make exaggerated claims, the same can be said about many martial arts schools. Let's face it, these fitness trainers are only taking their cues from actual martial arts schools where the people actually doing the work (ie, instructors) have maybe a couple years experience under their belts, and how many of the school owners have any practical, applied experience with what they're teaching?

Don't get me wrong. There are many reasons to take martial arts lessons, but if we're brutally honest about things, most MA schools have more in common with a fitness trainer than not.
 

Balrog

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A while back, SWMBO and I had the opportunity to attend a certification class that taught us how to teach cardio-kickboxing. We lasted about 30 minutes and then stepped out. When the instructor asked us why, we told her in no uncertain terms that she was teaching people how to hurt themselves and we wanted our money back.
 

tinker1

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I have a HUGE issue with this.

A little back ground - I'm a certified personal trainer. So I see this every frigging day.

As was pointed out, what is being taught is not just wrong but dangerous as well. Worse yet, the clients actually believe they are learning self defense and martial arts.

I've actually considered writing an article for the local paper on this. When I was contemplating this, I contacted Bally's (kwando), Powder Blue Productions (turbo kick), and Les Mills (body combat). I asked what was required to become a trainer for their product - AND - if a background in martial arts or boxing was in any way required.

You can probably guess the answer.

Some have a 1 day course + a home study course with a written test. NO BACKGROUND OR PREVIOUS TRAINING IN MARTIAL ARTS IS REQUIRED.

There is a term used in training regarding this sort of thing. It's "Dysfunctional Fitness".

The other day I was at the gym with my wife, and we stopped to look at a huge poster they had up promoting "turbo kick". The poster was of a woman doing a high front kick. Her form was not just bad, more than awful... words fail me. Just standing there I pointed out 6 faults in her technique. Some of these faults were actually dangerous.

Personally I don't care if fitness studios want to teach "the happy dance" and "punchie - kickie". I don't care at all. BUT. Every single class should start with a disclaimer - that this is NOT martial arts, and what they are teaching is in no way good for self defense. I also believe the instructors should at the least, teach techniques that will not injure the person doing them.. but I guess that's what liability insurance is for.
 

Nomad

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Agreed. At one point, my wife was doing the Tae-bo workout videos, and needing to shed a few calories, I tried joining her a couple of times.

The big turnoff for me was that I couldn't do the techniques the way (and the speed) that he wanted us to because the form was bad throughout. Trying to do decent techniques slows it down so you don't get the same cardio burn (at least initially).

Bleh.
 

Xue Sheng

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I don't disagree, but I'll say that it goes both ways. While some fitness trainers get carried away with their cardio boxing/tae bo stuff and make exaggerated claims, the same can be said about many martial arts schools. Let's face it, these fitness trainers are only taking their cues from actual martial arts schools where the people actually doing the work (ie, instructors) have maybe a couple years experience under their belts, and how many of the school owners have any practical, applied experience with what they're teaching?

Don't get me wrong. There are many reasons to take martial arts lessons, but if we're brutally honest about things, most MA schools have more in common with a fitness trainer than not.

Sadly this is very true.
 

tinker1

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... but if we're brutally honest about things, most MA schools have more in common with a fitness trainer than not.

Maybe I've been living a sheltered life, but this has not been my experience.

It's true that SOME schools are run by bogus martial artists, and they teach crap techniques. Most though (in my experience) are good.

Here's the thing.

To teach in a fitness facility, you have to have a certification from one of a few recognized agencies. This includes a BS in fitness science from a recognized university, or ACSM, ACE, or one of the others. So, why don't they require the same level of certification for their group fitness instructors that teach MA type classes?
 

Big Don

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At my school we don't do calisthenics, people are free to stretch out on their own before class, but, we don't do it in class. If you're attacked while walking down the street, you can hardly expect the bad guy to give you a few minutes to warm up...
This is my Sifu's theory, I like it.
 

tinker1

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At my school we don't do calisthenics, people are free to stretch out on their own before class, but, we don't do it in class. If you're attacked while walking down the street, you can hardly expect the bad guy to give you a few minutes to warm up...
This is my Sifu's theory, I like it.

If your training regimen includes daily stretching, you will become more flexible - even before you warm up and stretch. Flexibility is one of the 5 standards by which fitness is measured. This isn't how flexible you are after you stretch, but how flexible you are in your natural state.

The issue is whether or not it is ethical / wise / appropriate to have people teaching "martial arts" that are not actually martial artists.

My view is that this should not happen.
 

Big Don

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If your training regimen includes daily stretching, you will become more flexible - even before you warm up and stretch. Flexibility is one of the 5 standards by which fitness is measured. This isn't how flexible you are after you stretch, but how flexible you are in your natural state.

The issue is whether or not it is ethical / wise / appropriate to have people teaching "martial arts" that are not actually martial artists.

My view is that this should not happen.
That is all well and good. I, for one, don't pay my Karate teacher to run me through calisthenics. I pay him to teach me Kenpo. Who is the arbiter of what is or isn't a martial art? Is boxing? Greco Roman Wrestling? WWE style wrestling? Tai Chi? Rex Kwon Do?
 

ATC

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It really bothers me none. I don't care what anyone does with their time or efforts. What they do does not affect me. What they learn, don't learn, practice, don't practice really has nothing to do with what I do at all. If someone thinks they are a martial artist but only did Tae Bo from a video then so be it, they can think what they want. I can olny control what I do. If I am not satisfied with what I am doing then I do something about that.

I really don't see why so many worry so much about things that have nothing to do with them. For me to look at someone who is doing anything, and to get upset because they are not doing what I would do or the way I think it should be done is borderline crazy. They are doing what they want to do and the way that they want to. I can offer my opinion and they can take it or leave it. After that it is out of my head even if they choose to do it the way I suggested. I can only continue to offer opinions if they ask or want it. Then again they can take it or leave it but what they choose will not matter to me at all.
 

tinker1

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That is all well and good. I, for one, don't pay my Karate teacher to run me through calisthenics. I pay him to teach me Kenpo. Who is the arbiter of what is or isn't a martial art? Is boxing? Greco Roman Wrestling? WWE style wrestling? Tai Chi? Rex Kwon Do?

I think if the instructor calls it a martial art, then it is. Those who do boxing don't usually call what they do a martial art - even though in my mind it meets much of the criteria that goes with the distinction of a martial art, it isn't one because they don't claim it to be. Do Greco wrestlers and WWE behemoths call what they do a martial art? No, and they aren't martial arts.

I have never objected to calisthenics. As I was going through the ranks it was part of what we did. So as an instructor it was part of what I taught. My opinion is that part of learning the martial arts is the fitness level necessary to actually DO the art. They go hand in hand in my opinion - but if what you're doing works for you, I say great, and go for it.

ATC:
It's fine with me if this doesn't bother you. Everyone's different. It does bother me - just as I would be bothered by someone buying a car that was supposed to be able to go 100,000 miles with out maintenance and get 40 MPG... and it later turned out they were lied to.

To me, teaching classes like this to unsuspecting students and telling them that it's a martial art that can be used to defend themselves, is a lie - plain and simple. And I don't like to see people lied to and taken advantage of.

I feel these classes are a lie, a cheat, and a rip-off - because they claim to be a valid martial art. If they were to teach the same curriculum and call it a dance class, I would have absolutely no objection.
 

ATC

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I think if the instructor calls it a martial art, then it is. Those who do boxing don't usually call what they do a martial art - even though in my mind it meets much of the criteria that goes with the distinction of a martial art, it isn't one because they don't claim it to be. Do Greco wrestlers and WWE behemoths call what they do a martial art? No, and they aren't martial arts.

I have never objected to calisthenics. As I was going through the ranks it was part of what we did. So as an instructor it was part of what I taught. My opinion is that part of learning the martial arts is the fitness level necessary to actually DO the art. They go hand in hand in my opinion - but if what you're doing works for you, I say great, and go for it.

ATC:
It's fine with me if this doesn't bother you. Everyone's different. It does bother me - just as I would be bothered by someone buying a car that was supposed to be able to go 100,000 miles with out maintenance and get 40 MPG... and it later turned out they were lied to.

To me, teaching classes like this to unsuspecting students and telling them that it's a martial art that can be used to defend themselves, is a lie - plain and simple. And I don't like to see people lied to and taken advantage of.

I feel these classes are a lie, a cheat, and a rip-off - because they claim to be a valid martial art. If they were to teach the same curriculum and call it a dance class, I would have absolutely no objection.
:shrug:
 

JohnEdward

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A while back, SWMBO and I had the opportunity to attend a certification class that taught us how to teach cardio-kickboxing. We lasted about 30 minutes and then stepped out. When the instructor asked us why, we told her in no uncertain terms that she was teaching people how to hurt themselves and we wanted our money back.

I had a similar experience with surveying a commercial fitness product cardio kickboxing class, this class is sold to fitness centers. During the class a women badly hyper-extended and possibly dislocated her knee while kicking due to poor and lack of proper instruction. They carried her out. No one blamed the instructor for being poorly trained and ill-qualified.
 
OP
Zero

Zero

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I don't disagree, but I'll say that it goes both ways. While some fitness trainers get carried away with their cardio boxing/tae bo stuff and make exaggerated claims, the same can be said about many martial arts schools. Let's face it, these fitness trainers are only taking their cues from actual martial arts schools where the people actually doing the work (ie, instructors) have maybe a couple years experience under their belts, and how many of the school owners have any practical, applied experience with what they're teaching?

I hear what you are saying, there are a lot of MCDojos out there. However, the clubs I have trained at have always had a sensei who has something like twenty years, or a lot more, experience in training and competition and sometimes SD experience or been/is a LeO with expereinces with violence. Also, even when I was young and back in high school when doing TKD, the trainers were also young but at least had competed nationally and were skilled technicians. I have also visited many other MA styles and clubs throughout the years and yes, sometimes I thought yikes this is not for me or this stuff is not geared for the street, however the sifus/whatever taking the class have been teaching and applying well executed technique.

This is totally not the case with these PTs in the gyms I am seeing; these people have no experience to draw on and in fact are probably a lot worse than even the McDojo chains; their own technique sucks and they are passing this on for a hefty fee.

In answer to ATC's comment, you are dead right, we should all just focus on our own training, and that's what I do. I guess part of me just doesn't like seeing people being suckered or others passing themselves off, wrongly, as having the ability or credibility to train people! But you're right, it should not detract us from our own goals etc.
 

Sensei Payne

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I actually run a Cardio kickboxing class..being that I have a background in kickboxing/boxing etc..and I will tell them starting out.. THIS IS NOT A SELF DEFSENSE COURSE...and then I go on to tell them that if they would like to learn Self Defense, they can join the Ryukyu kempo class, or set up Private lessions..although I end up demoing some techs after the class..the whole "What ifs" people end up having.
 

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