What do you think is the most ruthless?

[Ninebird8]

With respect, for someone who does not have hardly any martial arts experience, and none in Aikido, I would ask that you first see for yourself, and not listen to what everyone says! One of my kung fu brothers is also an aikido adept and Brazilian jujitsu black belt legit besides our kung fu. We spar for 1-2 hours every Tuesday night in my garage. He has in total over 20 years of experience and I have over 30 years experience. We use everything we have learned and play. I can tell you that when I go full speed with my kung fu and he employs his true aikido, he is able to defend and strike simultaneously and catch me off balance if I do not move and absorb as well. Brother, as I have stated many times, it is NOT the art, but the one who executes it. And, again, the arts that are promulgated today that have survived many years did so because at their geneisis they were life/death fighting arts....there were no pitter patter tournaments, rolling on the ground, etc. And, by the way both Krav Maga and Combato employ certain softer techniques as you progress. How do I know? Though I have spent 32 years as a kung fu and tai chi practitioner from legit hard boiled fighters, my religious background has afforded me many opportunities to meet and play with Israeli Krav Maga people. I will tell you the good ones have Yin as well as Yang like all good fighters.

My one pet peeve after all this time is the total rejection of someone saying something will not work when they have not gone against a treu adept in it and seen for themselves! I have sparred/fought many styles other than kung fu and I will tell you, for instance, a Bill Sosa (God rest his soul) in aikido, Yang Chen Fu in tai chi, or others of that ilk can well handle full speed attacks.

Before judging anything in life, experience it firsthand, then either accept it, adapt it, or let it go!! With honor!

 

[Ninebird8]

My bad on genesis and true misspellings...was typing very fast while at work. I apologize!

 

[Brian King]

Joab wrote:

I don't know, but I'm convinced that the more gentle systems can not work on the street against an attacker. Take Aikido's wrist lock against a punch, action is faster than reaction, if he knows how to punch he will hit you, the answer is to strike back, or better yet run, if that's a viable option. Action being faster than reaction is known to all who know something of Physics. With all due respect to the practitioners of Aikido, which certainly has a beautiful philosophy, if not particularly practical against a determined mugger on the streets in my opinion and of those I have talked with and are experts in such arts as Wing Chun and American Combato. They are experts, I'm a beginner.

Joab
Regarding Aikido not working against a determined attacker I suggest that you take your time buying others ‘truths’ and adapting their truth as ‘the’ truth. I might suggest that you actually try a little quality Aikido and give it a go attacking someone well trained and then forming your opinion.

Many ‘experts’ have their biases formed by their experiences without testing or retesting, they can easily get stuck in the 'expert box' where the fear of looking bad or being shown up grows and grows and makes their box smaller and smaller. For instance some experts stay in their world in their niche and never venture out trying other martial arts. They have plenty of people come to them so they have an idea of what different martial arts do and how they (the experts) and their arts compare. The problem of course is that they set up the comparing under their terms doing those things that they have done thousands of times and those that visit them are rarely highly trained in the other art and are trying to learn the experts art not show up the expert. Not all experts stay in their cave and preach to their choir but go out and honestly train with equally qualified practitioners of other arts. You can tell these experts from the others not only by their movements and skills but by their informed understanding of other arts or the way they qualify their statements when conversing about other arts. Taking an experts opinion is fine and dandy but before making it your own it needs to be tested and verified multiple times. Once accepted it is very good to take your own truths and retest them and verify that the opinion still holds water and do so repeatedly and be grateful if your opinion changes over time and other experiences.


Regarding action vs. reaction you are correct. Action is usually faster than reaction. This is a truth. The action in this case being a punch will be faster than a reaction -no matter if that reaction is a punch or a throw or a turn around and run if both people have equal understandings of timing reflexes awareness and sensitivity. It is true that many Aikido-ka especially the very new will have a difficult time dealing with say a boxers jab. LOL so do many boxers LOL. The trick of course is…and I am hoping to be able to articulate this so that it is understandable…it is much easier to demonstrate in person, if the attacker throws the punch because the timing and the range was correct for the punch and it was their choice then they initiated the attack, but just because they throw a punch doesn’t mean that they initiated the attack. A punch can initiated by the opponent not the one throwing the punch. By being aware of range timing and reactions a person can be manipulated into throwing a predetermined attack to a predetermined target. If this is practiced and understood then even though the puncher is ’initiating’ the attack in truth they are reacting to the ‘defenders’ action and are usually a beat behind physically and mentally.


Joab, it may feel others are jumping on you and your opinions. I hope you understand that they do so from a deeper understanding that you admittedly currently possess. I like you (I think) am in the Seattle area and know where you are coming from (which is why I am taking the time responding to your posts). The timing of this thread and your posts are very fortunate as is your location. I VERY STRONGLY recommend that you attend this seminar this weekend!!
http://www.aikiweb.com/workshop/

George Ledyard, Toby Threadgill, and Aaron Clark​

March 20-22, 2009
in Seattle, WA
Three instructors from three different lineages will share their budo experience during this three-day workshop. They will present different but compatible approaches to the physical application of techniques and principles from their arts of Aikido, Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin Ryu, and Jiyushinkai Aikibudo. ​

Hosted by: Two Cranes Aikido Dojo, Seattle WA.

I have had the opportunity to work quite a bit with George Ledyard who is local in our area Joab http://aikieast.com and can recommend him for training with out any reservations at all no matter how fast your hands are. He has been tested and challenged before and finds it amusing and no big deal at all. I have also had a little experience with Toby Threadgill who is out of Colorado (I suggest that you do a google search of him and his art) and I can also recommend him for training without reservations and I really enjoy his sword work as well as his empty hand work. I do not yet have experience with Aaron Clark but have observed his father teach and was impressed by his practical knowledge and skill. Both Aaron and his father recently moved to the Seattle area and have great reputations. You might notice the “budo” term in their art. I am not really following this seminar but knowing two of the three instructors and something of the other art I am thinking that this would be a great event for you to test your and your experts opinions of Aikido and Aiki type of arts not to mention the chance to train with three world class instructors in three different arts at one seminar.

You might also notice that these instructors are willing to teach and show their art along side other arts and at seminars open to any that wish to attend.

Your journey has just started Joab and I envy you your newness. You have so much to discover and explore and you are living in a great martial arts area during an unprecedented time of sharing and growth.

If you attend the seminar please say hello to George for me (I am debating about attending Sunday but my schedule is giving me fits grrrr) and please post your observations. Also if they do not happen to cover the type of attacks you wonder about or have reservations over the effectiveness both George and Toby are open to questions and able to demonstrate the answers and their opinions. I am sure that Aaron is also cut from the same cloth.

Good luck and Best wishes sir, I hope that we get a chance to train together sometime in the future

Regards
Brian King

 

[Tez3]

Brian, thats a very informative and gracious post!

 

[Brian King]

Tez3 wrote

"Brian, thats a very informative and gracious post! "

Thanks Tez3 LOL I am off of work today so have time between loads of laundry and other chores. Reading threads seems so much more productive this time of morning LOL. Thank you for taking the time to post the kind words Tez3 I am a slow type that has to hunt and peck the keyboard and take time posting my thoughts and freely admit it is gratifying when someone says good job (whether we agree or not.)

Warmest wishes
Brian King

 

[searcher]

I agree with Tez3, very nice post. I applaud you and thank you for the information.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I tried to rep your post, Brian, but I must rep others first.

Daniel

 

[Hand Sword]

I was qouting experts in other arts, your right, I don't know enough to judge Aikido, but I'm convinced it couldn't work against a fast striking style.

You don't know enough but you're convinced???? Huh????? That's an ignorant statement, coming out of both ends. But, ok, each to their own. However, and this isn't meant to be sarcastic, I'm old school, go down to an aikido school and go at it. See what happens. Consider it a learning experience. If you're convinced...no worries.

 

[Ninebird8]

Handsword, I too am old school and at the end of the day that is the ultimate solution. Usually clears up any doubts. And if you win, you get the whole school....LOL....at least it was true in the old days...LOL!

 

[Joab]

Joab wrote:


Joab
Regarding Aikido not working against a determined attacker I suggest that you take your time buying others ‘truths’ and adapting their truth as ‘the’ truth. I might suggest that you actually try a little quality Aikido and give it a go attacking someone well trained and then forming your opinion.

Can't do that, no aikido school in my area

Many ‘experts’ have their biases formed by their experiences without testing or retesting, they can easily get stuck in the 'expert box' where the fear of looking bad or being shown up grows and grows and makes their box smaller and smaller. For instance some experts stay in their world in their niche and never venture out trying other martial arts. They have plenty of people come to them so they have an idea of what different martial arts do and how they (the experts) and their arts compare. The problem of course is that they set up the comparing under their terms doing those things that they have done thousands of times and those that visit them are rarely highly trained in the other art and are trying to learn the experts art not show up the expert. Not all experts stay in their cave and preach to their choir but go out and honestly train with equally qualified practitioners of other arts. You can tell these experts from the others not only by their movements and skills but by their informed understanding of other arts or the way they qualify their statements when conversing about other arts. Taking an experts opinion is fine and dandy but before making it your own it needs to be tested and verified multiple times. Once accepted it is very good to take your own truths and retest them and verify that the opinion still holds water and do so repeatedly and be grateful if your opinion changes over time and other experiences.

Joab: Well, Sifu John N. Beall told me he challenged an Aikido school to grab one of his punches and wristlock it. They said, "That's because your a Sifu" He told them try to grab any of his student punches and put them in a wristlock-it can't be done. It was my understanding the school didn't accept his challenge. American Combato founder and 10th degree black belt Bradley J. Steiner also told me it was not possible to place a wrist lock on somebody who throws a punch at you-presumably someone who know how to punch.


Regarding action vs. reaction you are correct. Action is usually faster than reaction. This is a truth. The action in this case being a punch will be faster than a reaction -no matter if that reaction is a punch or a throw or a turn around and run if both people have equal understandings of timing reflexes awareness and sensitivity. It is true that many Aikido-ka especially the very new will have a difficult time dealing with say a boxers jab. LOL so do many boxers LOL. The trick of course is…and I am hoping to be able to articulate this so that it is understandable…it is much easier to demonstrate in person, if the attacker throws the punch because the timing and the range was correct for the punch and it was their choice then they initiated the attack, but just because they throw a punch doesn’t mean that they initiated the attack. A punch can initiated by the opponent not the one throwing the punch. By being aware of range timing and reactions a person can be manipulated into throwing a predetermined attack to a predetermined target. If this is practiced and understood then even though the puncher is ’initiating’ the attack in truth they are reacting to the ‘defenders’ action and are usually a beat behind physically and mentally.


Joab, it may feel others are jumping on you and your opinions. I hope you understand that they do so from a deeper understanding that you admittedly currently possess. I like you (I think) am in the Seattle area and know where you are coming from (which is why I am taking the time responding to your posts). The timing of this thread and your posts are very fortunate as is your location. I VERY STRONGLY recommend that you attend this seminar this weekend!!
http://www.aikiweb.com/workshop/

George Ledyard, Toby Threadgill, and Aaron Clark​

March 20-22, 2009
in Seattle, WA
Three instructors from three different lineages will share their budo experience during this three-day workshop. They will present different but compatible approaches to the physical application of techniques and principles from their arts of Aikido, Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin Ryu, and Jiyushinkai Aikibudo. ​

Hosted by: Two Cranes Aikido Dojo, Seattle WA.

I have had the opportunity to work quite a bit with George Ledyard who is local in our area Joab http://aikieast.com and can recommend him for training with out any reservations at all no matter how fast your hands are. He has been tested and challenged before and finds it amusing and no big deal at all. I have also had a little experience with Toby Threadgill who is out of Colorado (I suggest that you do a google search of him and his art) and I can also recommend him for training without reservations and I really enjoy his sword work as well as his empty hand work. I do not yet have experience with Aaron Clark but have observed his father teach and was impressed by his practical knowledge and skill. Both Aaron and his father recently moved to the Seattle area and have great reputations. You might notice the “budo” term in their art. I am not really following this seminar but knowing two of the three instructors and something of the other art I am thinking that this would be a great event for you to test your and your experts opinions of Aikido and Aiki type of arts not to mention the chance to train with three world class instructors in three different arts at one seminar.

Joab: I don't live in Seattle any longer, I now live in Delaware.

You might also notice that these instructors are willing to teach and show their art along side other arts and at seminars open to any that wish to attend.

Your journey has just started Joab and I envy you your newness. You have so much to discover and explore and you are living in a great martial arts area during an unprecedented time of sharing and growth.

Joab: I started my journey years ago, but I haven't advanced very far. A lot of starts and stops to be honest along the way.

If you attend the seminar please say hello to George for me (I am debating about attending Sunday but my schedule is giving me fits grrrr) and please post your observations. Also if they do not happen to cover the type of attacks you wonder about or have reservations over the effectiveness both George and Toby are open to questions and able to demonstrate the answers and their opinions. I am sure that Aaron is also cut from the same cloth.

Good luck and Best wishes sir, I hope that we get a chance to train together sometime in the future

Regards
Brian King

The point of my post was not to deride aikido, it was to point out that some systems are less ruthless, such as aikido, than say American Combato. It was a compliment really, only an aside regarding the ineffectiveness of aikido according to Sifu John N. Beal of Greenlake Martial Arts School, and Bradley J. Steiner, founder and 10th degree black belt in American Combato. Sifu Beall told me he challenged a a aikido school to wristlock any of his students punches-he said it could not be done. So did Bradley J. Steiner, they both told me it's impossible. Can't attend your weekend seminar-thanks for the invite-Joab

 

[Hand Sword]

:erg:


Impossible??? Can't be done?????? Less lethal?? OMG!!!! I suppose they could take on a whole biker bar, in an all out brawl, not lose their sunglasses or hat during the fight, and not mess up their hair too. LOL! I would suggest that these people are not GM's and that you go somewhere else to take lessons. Let them go train the military with attitudes like that. I give up. Best of luck to you on your path.

 

[bluekey88]

The point of my post was not to deride aikido, it was to point out that some systems are less ruthless, such as aikido, than say American Combato. It was a compliment really, only an aside regarding the ineffectiveness of aikido according to Sifu John N. Beal of Greenlake Martial Arts School, and Bradley J. Steiner, founder and 10th degree black belt in American Combato. Sifu Beall told me he challenged a a aikido school to wristlock any of his students punches-he said it could not be done. So did Bradley J. Steiner, they both told me it's impossible. Can't attend your weekend seminar-thanks for the invite-Joab

Y'know...it' sbeen awhile since I've done aNy Aikido...but it occurs to me that there are other things one can do with a punch other than try to throw on a wrist lock. In fact, goign for the wrist lock out of the gate seems to me to be the LAST thing a decent Aikidoka, Hapkidoist, Ju-Jitsu practictioner, Taijutsu practitioner, etc. would consider.

Somehow disrupting the attack and taking the attackers balance comes to mind (atemi, footwork, using the opponents space, blending with their energy, etc). From there, apply the technqiues that present themselves.

Just sayin'

Peace,
Erik

 

[Brian King]

Joab wrote:

“only an aside regarding the ineffectiveness of aikido according to Sifu John N. Beal of Greenlake Martial Arts School, and Bradley J. Steiner, founder and 10th degree black belt in American Combato. Sifu Beall told me he challenged a a aikido school to wristlock any of his students punches-he said it could not be done. So did Bradley J. Steiner, they both told me it's impossible.”

LOL well my mother taught me manners so all I can say is it is a big world and Seattle is a small town with many different views and stories some even based in reality. I myself have been told many things by many people, many of whom had titles and initials and numbers associated with their names, all the promotion and pomp did nothing to disguise the foolishness of their statements nor make me any less foolish for the moments I believed them.

“Can't attend your weekend seminar-thanks for the invite”

Not my seminar and I didn’t invite you. Wouldn’t want you telling stories ; ) I told you about a seminar and suggested that you go. It is different than ibeing invited to a seminar. I have hosted seminars and this is not one of them. This seminar is being hosted by Jun at Aikiweb and is being attended by martial artists from all over the United States. I have nothing to do with the seminar other than admiring the work and dedication needed to host and organize such an event. Understand that I try to be precise in my wording for a reason and really dislike it when deliberately misunderstood or misquoted not that I am accusing you of doing so but I am hoping that you understand that in our lives what we say and do has consequences and who we give our support and recommendations to and about reflects on us as people and as martial artists. As careful as I try to be about my wording in posts I am even more careful who I associate with and loan my name whether attending seminars or meeting people.

“I started my journey years ago, but I haven't advanced very far. A lot of starts and stops to be honest along the way.”

Ah, that must be very frustrating sir. Remember it is not the length of time that makes a journey special and memorable nor is it the destination. It is the quality of the steps and the adversity faced and overcame. Good luck in your journey sir. A journey can be like a train tunnel sir. Dark and long with a bright light at the end. A closed mind can be the same.

“I don't live in Seattle any longer, I now live in Delaware.”

Pity but I imagine that you will find quality martial arts and practitioners in your new local. Maybe not a Steiner or Beall but every area has their Steiner’s and Beall’s I suppose.

The only reason I became involved in this thread is because I thought you were local. You are not so I will now bow out of this thread and let it get back onto topic.

Regards
Brian King

 

[Tez3]

Joab, I think you are missing the point we are trying to make....that it's not the martial arts that are ruthless but the people. You can train in the most brutal style and be a gentle person, you can train in nothing and be a ruthless killer with a coffee mug.
Any style you study can be applied ruthlessly.
Some styles are more subtle than others so you can mistake their intent.
It's probably best not to compare styles as if they were fighting each other, better to look for a style that suits you.

 

[Hand Sword]

Joab, I think you are missing the point we are trying to make....that it's not the martial arts that are ruthless but the people. You can train in the most brutal style and be a gentle person, you can train in nothing and be a ruthless killer with a coffee mug.
Any style you study can be applied ruthlessly.
Some styles are more subtle than others so you can mistake their intent.
It's probably best not to compare styles as if they were fighting each other, better to look for a style that suits you.

What she said!

 

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by Tez3

What she said!

Ditto what he said, pertaining to what she said.

 

[Joab]

.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The point of my post was not to deride aikido, it was to point out that some systems are less ruthless, such as aikido, than say American Combato.

Had you just said that and stopped there at the outset, nobody would have criticized your comments. Ueshiba never made any claims of intended ruthlessness regarding Aikido that I am aware of. But you then went on to make judgements about Aikido's effectiveness against other styles, all the while prefacing your comments with "I don't know enough to judge." You are argueing with zero first hand knowledge and relying entirely on anecdotes made by two financially invested individuals:

It was a compliment really, only an aside regarding the ineffectiveness of aikido according to Sifu John N. Beal of Greenlake Martial Arts School, and Bradley J. Steiner, founder and 10th degree black belt in American Combato. Sifu Beall told me he challenged a a aikido school to wristlock any of his students punches-he said it could not be done. So did Bradley J. Steiner, they both told me it's impossible.

Anecdotes and unverifiable claims.

If the story is true, which I seriously doubt, all that it means is that these two guys are good at keeping opponents from grabbing their wrists in a controled stunt. Keep in mind that its easy as pie to prevent a technique that you know is coming against an opponent who isn't going to do anything other than try to grab your wrist. Two words for you: Stage Stunt. Looks good and sounds impressive to the inexperienced or uninformed. To the informed, not so much.

And anyway, since when is wristlocking a punch the gauge of Aikido effectiveness. That's like saying that the effectiveness of the shuto is the true measure of karate, while ignoring all of the kicks, punches, blocks, and such. Aikido is about much more than snatching punches out of the air and wristlocking them.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Joab, I think you are missing the point we are trying to make....that it's not the martial arts that are ruthless but the people. You can train in the most brutal style and be a gentle person, you can train in nothing and be a ruthless killer with a coffee mug.
Any style you study can be applied ruthlessly.
Some styles are more subtle than others so you can mistake their intent.
It's probably best not to compare styles as if they were fighting each other, better to look for a style that suits you.

QFT.

Daniel

 

[bluekey88]

People are ruthless...MA's are not. Or to paraphrase a famouse quote:

Martial arts don't kill people...I do.



Peace,
Erik