What do you call a black belt???

[dancingalone]

Well that is good for your "teacher", bad for the art. What ever happened to integrity...what ever happened to morality...why are people only concerned with fighting? MA should be used for nothing more than self-defense (or tournament/exhibition).

SA_BJJ, you're being rather presumptuous. You don't even know what MA we practice. For all you know, I could be doing medieval broadsword which decidedly has no moral component to it. No offense intended,but you're clearing sounding off on something you have no depth in.

 

[SA_BJJ]

SA_BJJ, you're being rather presumptuous. You don't even know what MA we practice. For all you know, I could be doing medieval broadsword which decidedly has no moral component to it. No offense intended,but you're clearing sounding off on something you have no depth in.

No offense taken, but youre posting in a TKD forum so why would you be talking about midevil broadsword????

 

[dancingalone]

Lots of people from other arts participate in this forum. It's one of the most active on MT and frequently people get their first MA exposure from TKD. Looks like you do BJJ by your handle. Plenty of karate, kenpo, or kung fu people also enjoy the TKD board.

 

[SA_BJJ]

No worries brother...I suppose we will agree to disagree...

 

[BrandonLucas]

If this is referring to TKD, then yes, more of the Do should be taught...if we're not talking about TKD, then this should be moved to the general arts forum and discussed there so there is no confusion.

If an instructor is teaching Tae Kwon Do or Taekwon Do, then it should be a given that the Do is taught.

It's cool if you want to screen all of your students before you teach them...in fact, that's a rather good idea. But, morals can be taught without directly teaching them in the arts. Any good instructor should be able to instill good values into most of his/her students. Sure, there will be the occasional "bad apple", but overall, the Do is 1/3 of the art.

Just out of curiosity, what art are you referring to, dancingalone?

(By the way, the name of the thread is "What do you call a black belt?...we should probably focus on getting back on topic and discussing this in a seperate thread)

 

[Manny]

Respect, all is respect. I inside and outside call my sambunim Professor Carrillo. He always call me Mr.Ma..... (my last name), I always call the kids no matter of age Mr.Robert, or Mr.Edwing,or Miss Laura lways the Mister o Miss befoe his/her name... why? quite simple I want order and respect for me so I need to show it firsth.

The Kids alwass efer to me as Don Manuel, Don is much respectfully than Mister in my country nd we use Don for old people for example I'm Mr.Manuel my father si Don Manuel, don't know if you get it.

Well, giving I'm the oldest practicioner in the dojan my sambuim call me Don Manuel, the moms of the kids call Don Manuel, the kids call me Don Manuel so I call them in the same maner so the kids are Mister Ramirez for example and the moms are Mrs.Ramirez.

I know of many MA teachers that even use nicks for his students and that's not good, cause the kids don't behave with respect inside and outside the dojan.

Manny

 

[BrandonLucas]

Respect, all is respect. I inside and outside call my sambunim Professor Carrillo. He always call me Mr.Ma..... (my last name), I always call the kids no matter of age Mr.Robert, or Mr.Edwing,or Miss Laura lways the Mister o Miss befoe his/her name... why? quite simple I want order and respect for me so I need to show it firsth.

The Kids alwass efer to me as Don Manuel, Don is much respectfully than Mister in my country nd we use Don for old people for example I'm Mr.Manuel my father si Don Manuel, don't know if you get it.

Well, giving I'm the oldest practicioner in the dojan my sambuim call me Don Manuel, the moms of the kids call Don Manuel, the kids call me Don Manuel so I call them in the same maner so the kids are Mister Ramirez for example and the moms are Mrs.Ramirez.

I know of many MA teachers that even use nicks for his students and that's not good, cause the kids don't behave with respect inside and outside the dojan.

Manny

I agree with this and have seen it happen. Kids that get nicknames from their instructors start having a laid back attitude during class and get the wrong idea from their instruction.

It's good to have a friendly attitude toward your instructor off the matt, but when you're in class or on the matt, it should be all business.

 

[jks9199]

A black belt to me..

is a symbol and nothing more..

but its a symbol representing ones above and beyond attititude when participating in martial arts. It isn't just attending class for the required time...

its a collective of things. Ranging from time, skill, effort, motivation, maturity. When you receive your blackbelt there should be a noticable difference in you, and everything about you.

Im in trouble then...I am basically the same person I was BEFORE donning getting my black belt..I am passionate about training and committed to being the best teacher I can be, but still finding time to crack a joke while teaching to make the whole experience more enjoyable for the students...

I agree, Drac. My teacher and I try to screen people BEFORE they start learning with us. That way we can focus on the technical aspects of the martial art rather than having to teach morals or build character. Jutsu vs. Do. We do not wish to teach a "Do".

You should be the same person, knowing almost exactly the same information, the day after the promotion as the day before. Promotion to black belt, like an academic degree, recognizes what you've achieved and learned; it doesn't confer special abilities, wisdom, or powers, as much as we might wish it does.

Returning to topic... Address a black belt respectfully. In some systems, there are specific titles at specific levels. Most TKD falls into that category... but you're always safe with "Mister" or equivalent address, just like you'd use on meeting someone professionally. In my style, we often simply address each other, whatever the level, by first name... but you can still be respectful about doing that! You can also follow the lead of the students above you; sharing etiquette tips like this with beginners is one of the typical tasks of the senior students in the school.

 

[jks9199]

That is ridiculous...A huge part of the martial arts revolves around morals and character...

Well that is good for your "teacher", bad for the art. What ever happened to integrity...what ever happened to morality...why are people only concerned with fighting? MA should be used for nothing more than self-defense (or tournament/exhibition).

Do you realize how much of a circle you seem to be talking in?

I don't choose to teach students of questionable integrity. It's not my job to mold their personality or morality; I'm not a preacher or their parent. If they haven't been taught to be "good people" before they walk into the school -- it's too late.

Even with the kids I teach -- I simply provide an example for them, and help them develop some self discipline. My limited class time isn't going to reshape their personality or give them morals that their parents aren't reinforcing.

 

[Drac]

I prefer your Highness or My Lord,, But if they call me Steve that works too!

That aint bad...Its the burning insense and chanting that's the pain...

 

[Sylo]

You should be the same person, knowing almost exactly the same information, the day after the promotion as the day before. Promotion to black belt, like an academic degree, recognizes what you've achieved and learned; it doesn't confer special abilities, wisdom, or powers, as much as we might wish it does.

Returning to topic... Address a black belt respectfully. In some systems, there are specific titles at specific levels. Most TKD falls into that category... but you're always safe with "Mister" or equivalent address, just like you'd use on meeting someone professionally. In my style, we often simply address each other, whatever the level, by first name... but you can still be respectful about doing that! You can also follow the lead of the students above you; sharing etiquette tips like this with beginners is one of the typical tasks of the senior students in the school.

Sorry, but personal experiences forces me to disagree with this,.
I know plenty of people who ARE not the same person they used to be. Maybe the core doesn't change. But, I should be stronger, more aware, more disciplined, and overall more refined as a fighter in the very least. While the image on the outside may not have changed.. I am not the same person I was when I entered the doors on my first day. It might vary from person to person exactly how they change.. but they do change. I'm not even black belt, and I know that I will have developed exponentially by the time I get there. I mean, if the belt doesn't mean anything get rid of it. I know alot of schools have adopted this way of thinking.. and I don't see anything wrong with it. If its just this worthless rank that means absolutely nothing.. why does it exist?

I do agree that having a black belt doesn't give me any special powers or abilities. But it still shouldn't be something everybody and their cousin/sister/brother has. Not everyone has or wants to give that amount of dedication and effort to something.

 

[jks9199]

Sorry, but personal experiences forces me to disagree with this,.
I know plenty of people who ARE not the same person they used to be. Maybe the core doesn't change. But, I should be stronger, more aware, more disciplined, and overall more refined as a fighter in the very least. While the image on the outside may not have changed.. I am not the same person I was when I entered the doors on my first day. It might vary from person to person exactly how they change.. but they do change. I'm not even black belt, and I know that I will have developed exponentially by the time I get there. I mean, if the belt doesn't mean anything get rid of it. I know alot of schools have adopted this way of thinking.. and I don't see anything wrong with it. If its just this worthless rank that means absolutely nothing.. why does it exist?

I do agree that having a black belt doesn't give me any special powers or abilities. But it still shouldn't be something everybody and their cousin/sister/brother has. Not everyone has or wants to give that amount of dedication and effort to something.

But that change didn't happen in a single day or test. It began by selecting a school where the teachers embodied characteristics you subconsciously emulated. It continued as you chose each day to return to class, to train, to confront your fears, and so on. It moved forward as you took those lessons out of the dojo and into the world...

Finally, after your years of training and accepting and emulating and just plain copying the teacher, you tested for black belt. But on that day, you didn't really know anything more than the day before. You may have confronted something in yourself during the process of testing, and you may have learned something about yourself -- but you didn't become a new person as a result of that test. You changed your personality over the years of training that led you to the test.

 

[IcemanSK]

My grandmaster is very formal. He asks us to call him GM Sell. Yet, at the same time, he always calls me Mr. Jensen. Never by my 1st name. I'd be worried something was wrong if he called me Tom. And my head would fall off my shoulders if he said, "you can call me Ed."

 

[BrandonLucas]

But that change didn't happen in a single day or test. It began by selecting a school where the teachers embodied characteristics you subconsciously emulated. It continued as you chose each day to return to class, to train, to confront your fears, and so on. It moved forward as you took those lessons out of the dojo and into the world...

Finally, after your years of training and accepting and emulating and just plain copying the teacher, you tested for black belt. But on that day, you didn't really know anything more than the day before. You may have confronted something in yourself during the process of testing, and you may have learned something about yourself -- but you didn't become a new person as a result of that test. You changed your personality over the years of training that led you to the test.

First off, I don't think that Sylo was actually saying that you just change in one day, or when the belt is handed to you. It does happen over time.

But, I will say this. The day I tested for my 1st degree is the day that I became a man. I changed in that single day. The day before the test, sure, I was determined, but during the test, I unleashed something inside me that made me earn the rank of 1st degree.

Not everyone has the same experience as I did. But I can assure you that the day after the test, I was a far different person than I was 2 days prior.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Do you call a black belt, Master < last name > or Mister < last name > ? What's the protocol?

Call me Lord High General of the Dojang, a peerless paragon of prowess! Failure to do so will result in being issued a shiny new white belt after completing the mandatory 200 pushups.

Sorry, couldn't resist. The question has been answered good and well by others here. In Kukkiwon taekwondo, master is (I believe) 5th dan and up, though 4th dan practitioners may sign dan certs. I suppose that 4th dan can be considered a master instructor.

Personally, mister is just fine for me. I don't need fancy titles or stripes on my belt. But Mister is fine: it maintains a professional decorum.

Daniel

 

[TKDHermit]

[first name]Sir or [first name]ma'am.

 

[CDKJudoka]

Formal title depends on what Dan you are. When answering a question to a higher rank, it is Sir or Ma'am. When referring to them in the Dojang or on the mat, it is always by their title.

1st Dan- Sen Sei Nim
2nd Dan- Bu Kyo Nim
3rd Dan- Kyo Sa Nim
4th Dan- Bu Sah Bu Min
5th-8th Dan- Sah Bu Nim
9th Dan- Kwang Ja Nim

 

[KELLYG]

Every belt young and old is referred to as Mr. Ms. and first name till they reach 4th Dan then its Master and Last name.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Formal title depends on what Dan you are. When answering a question to a higher rank, it is Sir or Ma'am. When referring to them in the Dojang or on the mat, it is always by their title.

1st Dan- Sen Sei Nim
2nd Dan- Bu Kyo Nim
3rd Dan- Kyo Sa Nim
4th Dan- Bu Sah Bu Min
5th-8th Dan- Sah Bu Nim
9th Dan- Kwang Ja Nim

While I'm not familiar with all of these titles, the first dan of senseinim is quite remeniscent of sensei. Kyosanim is my official title as a kumdo instructor, but so far as I know, it simply means instructor. Sabumnim is generally equated to master, so 5th and up is appropriate. Kwanjangnim literally means head of school to my knowledge, and is generally equated with a school owner or the founder of a style; I've never heard it associated with 9th dan in the sense of being an official 9th dan title, but I suppose that it makes sense, as all the ninth dans I have ever met are school owners.

Daniel

 

[CDKJudoka]

While I'm not familiar with all of these titles, the first dan of senseinim is quite remeniscent of sensei. Kyosanim is my official title as a kumdo instructor, but so far as I know, it simply means instructor. Sabumnim is generally equated to master, so 5th and up is appropriate. Kwanjangnim literally means head of school to my knowledge, and is generally equated with a school owner or the founder of a style; I've never heard it associated with 9th dan in the sense of being an official 9th dan title, but I suppose that it makes sense, as all the ninth dans I have ever met are school owners.

Daniel

Well, we only have one 9th Dan in our school, and he is the GM, but we refer to him by Kwan Jang Nim. I'm not sure where they got the titles from but I do remember that Kyo and Bu Kyo are the instructor titles (Bu Kyo being junior instructor) from my days in the ITF school. Sen Sei Nim is the first time I have ever heard the use of the title from a 1st Dan BB in TKD of any form.