We've Lost one...

[chufeng]

Further, I'll risk getting tossed on my ear...
Why?
Because right is right and wrong is wrong...
Relativism has no place in a system where one can easily snuff a life...if you make that choice, it best be right.

Likewise, what one teaches his students reflects on his teacher.

I am proud of what I learned from my teacher...
I am not afraid to say "********" when I see it...
The emperor is not wearing new clothes, he is wearing NO clothes.

This self proclaimed deceiver NOW expects us to listen to what he has to say because he did it for a good cause (he shut up the voice of reality)...

Throw me off, if I've overstepped my welcome, but I am simply pointing out a HUGE disservice to the members of this board.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[arnisador]

On a personal note, RyuShiKan has provided a great deal of content that I have found interesting and useful. I certainly know more about Okinawan history and language, for starters. I would like to see him return--he has a wealth of experience and information that benefits the board.

 

[chufeng]

Arnisador,

What you are saying, by your actions, is that, even though someone admitted deceiving evryone on the board for his own amusement...he can still post...

Whereas, RyuShiKan is suspended for pointing out some discrepencies in someone's post...

I might just leave this place if that is HOW you guys do business.

No canned responses are necessary...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by chufeng
What you are saying, by your actions, is that, even though someone admitted deceiving evryone on the board for his own amusement...he can still post...

What I said was, please give us time so that all five mods. can discuss this matter and come to a consensus. Not all of the mods. have had a chance to learn of the most recent developments. We try to operate as a team and want to have the opportunity to discuss the matter.

I am asking you--please, have patience.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[Bob Hubbard]

chufeng,
I am reviewing a number of posts, while trying to rapidly work thru a huge backlog of emails and PMs, in order to resolve this issue ASAP.

As arnisador has indicated, we discuss these issues, so as to try and reach a fair concencous. We are only human.

Despite any past or current issues any members of our moderation team may have with any particular member, it is our goal to be fair. We have a policy that if we have a conflict of interests, that the conflicting mod is not allowed to vote.

I am working on this now. I had no intentions on returning to MartialTalk until Monday.

Please understand that we are taking this seriously, but we need time to find the truth.

Justice will be served, and it will be fair and unbiased.

I promise.

Bob Hubbard
Owner, MartialTalk.com

 

[Shinzu]

it's a shame when anyone leaves this forum. a shame that some people have to play games like these and not be upfront and honest. he will be missed.

 

[Matt Stone]

Thanks to official military requirements, I have been away from MT for the past two days...

Miss a day, miss a lot, huh?

RyuShiKan is a very, very, very good friend of mine. I mean that with the seriousness that folks who know me (and who know I am very particular who I hang around with, much less who I train in MA with or under) know I am capable of.

When RyuShiKan gets blindsided by some sh*tbag that has an axe to grind (almost always because RyuShiKan has pointed out the flaws in the other person's background, training or alleged legitimacy - and I have yet to see RyuShiKan be proven wholly wrong), I get a tad pissed off.

I have dealt with Arnisador a lot on this board, and due to that alone will I restrict any comments about this issue until he, Bob and the others have a chance to deal with this turd.

I hope this gets fixed yesterday... :angry:

 

[Rich Parsons]

Gentlemen,

It is a shame to see someone leave who can offer value and knowledge.


What is a real shame is that I have received a warning or two, and I have immediately addressed the issue. If you are polite, and deal with the issue and are not snotty with the MODs I have the belief that all would be well.

As pointed out by Kaith and Arnisador, they are addressing the issue. They require time. Give it to them. Do not make the mistake of attacking the MODs and risk being suspended yourself. Continue to give your viewpoints as long as it is new or additional data. Save the feelings to the private messages to the MODs so they can do their un-paid job the best they can.


Now I do not know the whole story, and yes I am jumping in the middle asking for everyone to step back and breath. Allow the system to work.


I have faith in few things, one of them is that the crew on this board due care and try to do their best. It may take Time.

Best wishes to all, and train well :asian:

 

[sweeper]

well in the case ryushikan does not return I would like to say I never had a problem with him, he always took the time to answer any of my questions about his posts wich is nice for a newbie to MA like myself because I don't always understand what is being talked about

 

[fissure]

I just finished reading through the thread that got this whole mess started.I haven't been here for a while - the constant repetition of "same old, same old" had gotten to me. It just seems like everyone gets offended no matter the intent of quires or questions. Or points trying to be made (poorly in some cases - my own included!) only to be thrown out with the bath water, in favor of the popular "I'll take a word or phrase you used, and bash you over the head with it" theory.
I've done my fair share of bickering about nothing in several threads, and have no doubt that most people get into these pointless banters without intending to.
I have responded to a lot of threads, "just because", but have given real thought to only a select few that seemed to me to be "important".
The last one was with white belt in the TKD forum, on the subject of forms/poomse application.I enjoyed it very much, unfortunately we seemed to be the only ones willing to discus application - and one member even got annoyed at the idea of such talk,
This leeds me back to the subject of this thread. As I said, I read the entire thread in which RyuShiKan and Sensei Mike/Shuri Te had their little spat.The forms application thing made me remember the "Sensei Mike" of old- his lengthy posts on the subject got under RyuShiKan's skin as I recall. I even posted about the length of his posts (funny-as I consider my current under taking!!), I remember the same irritation that somehow comes across even in written words between the two. What I can't understand is the reason RyuShiKan is suspended. He was arguing with someone who annoyed him. So what? Sure he took a somewhat "pissy" tone with Mike (or whatever), so did Mike in regard to Ryu. So do many posters with many other posters, even after a Mod. gives that little "keep it nice" advise.
Bottom line is, for all our talk of Martial Arts making better people - we fall into the same dumb ruts as any other people. We bicker and put down and belittle each other at almost every opportunity.
And just so you all don't think I'm trying to place myself on some kind of moral high ground - I noticed this today: On 9/02 Sensei Mike was a 3rd Dan, here we are on 3/03 and Shuri Te is now a 5th Dan. And I thought that some TKD dojang promoted too fast! (relax - I'm aTKD guy myself!)

 

[D.Cobb]

I belong to a Ryukyu Kempo school, that stems from George Dillmans teaching. In fact Mr. Dillman was my instructors original pressure point teacher.
We all know how RyuShiKan feels about Mr. Dillman, and yet he has shown me complete respect at all times. I, like everyone else, sometimes find his tone a tad abrupt, but failing that he is always informative unless it contradicts his idea of right and wrong.
In this instance I feel that he has been severley done by and I believe that this may also be down to the bad blood between RyuShiKan and one particular moderator.
However having said that, let me say this, I have only ever seen fairness from Arnisador and Mr. Hubbard.
This debarcle needs to be dealt with asap.

--Dave

:asian:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

ok folks....I've been hammering at this issue since I was made aware of it. As I said earlier, I had a lot of stuff to wade thru, and a few very long threads with alot of posts that were pure ********.

Its 3:30AM here, I should have been asleep 2 hours ago. We spent about 3 hours in a 3 way going thru a number of particulars that surround this. Some people are not going to like these decisions. We've been as fair as we can, all things considered and carefully weighed out. The final decision took over an hour to come to.

First things first...

Duplicate Accounts. - These are against our rules. The software attempts to stop this, but it can be fooled. We are well aware that there are duplicate accounts in use. As we can, we eliminate then, espeically when they are only used to cause trouble. Shuri-te, Shuri te and Sensei Mike are all the same individual. Sensei Mike admits to creating the Shuri-te account to needle RyuShiKan. This violates another rule.

RyuShiKan - I'm going to be blunt here. He is a pain in the ***. He is the 'Sam Kinison' of the forums...he gets in your face and screams 'Say It!'. Some people can not, or will not take it. He has driven several individuals away or underground with his 'in your face', 'put up or shut up' approach. This has gotten him a number of enemies. I am not 1 of those. I have butted heads with him in the past. I have grown to have a respect for him in the last year. He has been suspended from this forum in the past, and received several warnings for his actions. That said, I looked at -this- matter solely on what happened in this instance, and then weighed it against his past contributions. He has a very developed sence of what is 'the right thing' and will pursue it in as direct and blunt a manner as he can, damn the rest.

Shuri-te - around 20 posts, most looking to be pure BS that seems to be geared towards pushing RyuShiKan's known buttons. Other than this, I dont know much. The posts rambled so much that I got lost on a few occations. On repeated rereads, I determined that the first person to push a button was in fact Shuri-te. I did not reexamine 'Sensei Mikes'.


Distilled down to its base points, I see this as a case of someone (SM) signs up and makes a few posts that sent up 'warning flags' to R, who then pursued clarification and answers. SM was issued a warning and then disappeared. A while later R gets into issues with another member, and using the name of this members art, SM logs in as ST with the sole purpose of sowing confusion and setting up R to get himself in trouble. A series of huge posts with no real answers sends R over the limits, and an administrator seeing what appears to be a flame war between a new member and a past problematic member, suspends the 'hoter' of the 2.

emails are exchanged which only increases the tension between the admin and R.

(Note folks, if we suspend you, and you feel the need to discuss it, 3 suggestions : 1 - contact a different mod/admin, 2- calm cool and collected works better than hot, pissed and sarcastic. 3-wait an hour or 2.)

At this point, evidence starts to turn up (provided by R and our server logs) that there was more to this.

At this point...
We have examined the evidence, the past records of those involved, weighed it all out, debated it until all 3 admins were very pissed off, and I have been forced to make some hard decisions. This is a compromise to try to be as fair as possible. Based on a number of issues, we would not be remiss to issue bans here...but we did not.

Shuri-te/Shuri te/Sensei Mike - is suspended from MartialTalk until May 1st.

RyuShiKan - is suspended from MartialTalk until March 21st.

It is my hope that both parties will return and utilize this forum in the spirit in which it is provided. It is no place for vendetas. You have the right to ask someone to provide additional information. They have the right to refuse to do so. They say that actions speak louder than words...I believe in this case, the actions were words, which have painted a very clear picture.


==========
It is now 4am...I need sleep badly.
Good night.
:asian:

 

[Master of Blades]

All the interesting things happen when I leave my computer :shrug:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Admin Note:
Please be aware that we will review this decision within 24 hours of -this- post to double check our findings and ensure that what we said, was wahat we meant to say, as well as to 'double check' certain things. Or in english - 4am, when you've had no sleep for 48 hours is not the time to try to do serious thinking.

When I fully wake up, I'll start rereading things.

rmh

 

[arnisador]

We spent a great deal of time on this matter. We analyzed logs, compared IPs, looked at join dates/post dates/last dates on, read through old threads, looked into our history of warnings and suspensions--it took time. We also had to wait for one person who was working to become available. Thanks to all those who were willing to give us the time to investigate and discuss this issue.

This was a difficult decision. The fact that the full truth came out piecemeal, and that it involved technical issues that required Mr. Hubbard who was on vacation, made it even harder. We considered the data above, e-mails/PMs that had passed between the admins. and the individuals concerned, what the individuals contribute to MartialTalk (in particular, RyuShiKan has contributed much useful and valued content to the site, with over 1000 posts), and other issues. We tried very hard to reach what we felt was a fair decision. Clearly, not everyone will be happy with it.

Multiple accounts and baiting other members is a serious violation. However, as Mr. Hubbard indicated, we felt and feel that there is some blame to be shared on both sides, and some history here that needs to be considered. MartialTalk is a place for the friendly discussion of the martial arts. We ask that everyone maintain a polite and professional manner on the forum. If someone you are conversing with isn't doing so, the appropriate response is to contact a moderator and cease responding to the offending individual. We very much want to be not rec.martial-arts.

This is the toughest case we've had to handle and the Admin. team has certainly learned some lessons with it. MartialTalk is less than two years old so please be forgiving as we strive to develop procedures to allow us to fairly and expeditiously handle situations such as this. We apologize for our failings in this matter but ask that you allow us to settle the matter as best we can and move forward. We'll be better prepared for a situation like this in the future, but we must learn as we go.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[Matt Stone]

Okay, you guys made a decision. I admit I'm not happy about RyuShiKan's suspension being upheld, but at least the other guy got worse, so there is some justice there...

Here's a question though: There are some folks in the MA world (myself included) who are rather dedicated to exposing frauds for what they are. Sure, nobody appointed me Chief Grand Inquisitor for Martial Purity, but the job was/is open for applicants... There are some folks that come online, here and elsewhere, and with a large amount of bogus titles and claims to lineages begin to befuddle the folks who are either too early on their path in MA or too secluded in their education to know that these folks are frauds.

Somebody has to step up and show the world what they are and who they are not.

I have had some arguments with folks here and on other boards. I usually try to keep it nice, since if nothing else I come across as the good guy in the debate (a little court room trick I learned on the job). When the other guy (the one I am trying to expose as a fraud) gets pissed, then folks add that to their perception of the guy based on what has come out through the discussion. In the end, if I was right or wrong, we end up with a much more detailed understanding of the situation.

My recent interaction with akja was an example of this - a person with a seemingly questionable background, over time, was shown to be a rather well-trained (if oddly recognized) martial artist. I personally have no major beef with him for what he does anymore, and hope to run across him in "real life" one day.

But some folks refuse to answer questions or provide evidence... Ever. Then they start to get nasty in return. Even in MA, though I am sure we all tell our students and children to walk away in the face of potential conflict, there comes a time when you have to stand your ground and push back.

I really like MT. I have all but abandoned posting on other boards because this place is so good. But there will come a time in MT's maturing process where things like E-budo's Bad Budo forum (or at least posts that would belong there) will need to be addressed. Guidance on how to proceed is requested. I have yet to be suspended or banned, and I would just as soon find out how you want the game to be played before hand than learn on the fly.

Thanks for trying to keep the record straight.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Please forgive me, I've very exhausted at the moment, so if this is muddy, let me know and Ill clarify.

It is not the expossure, but 'how' the exposure happens that is the issue. Youre comment:

I have had some arguments with folks here and on other boards. I usually try to keep it nice, since if nothing else I come across as the good guy in the debate (a little court room trick I learned on the job). When the other guy (the one I am trying to expose as a fraud) gets pissed, then folks add that to their perception of the guy based on what has come out through the discussion. In the end, if I was right or wrong, we end up with a much more detailed understanding of the situation.

is a very good one. You keep it polite and professional. Let the other guy get bent outta joint and be the one who gets nailed, not you. You can not let it get personal.

We cant rightly boot a person for refusing to answer questions. We can and will boot those who get personal, insulting, antagonistic, etc.

But some folks refuse to answer questions or provide evidence... Ever. Then they start to get nasty in return. Even in MA, though I am sure we all tell our students and children to walk away in the face of potential conflict, there comes a time when you have to stand your ground and push back.

Please see the previous msg. We cant 'require' that anyone provide anything, a name, a cert, an answer, etc. All we can do is require that they conform to our rules of conduct. When it comes to the 'push back' stage, what we are forced to do as mods depends on the form of the conflict.

The arguement will show 1 side asking questions, the other side being evasive or worse. When it gets beyond a certain point, it is time to take it offboard. Threads that degenerate into flames can not be tollerated or let to flare into a fire. We are all burned by those.

We've let some touchy topics go on due to their content. A thread on a child molester who is still teaching for example.

Regarding a 'bad budo' forum, I believe we have 1, but it is under utilized. Perhaps some suggestions from our more experienced members on a better usage of it might help us in the future? I am open to suggestions on how to improve things. This particular issue has forced us to improve our inter-mod communications to reach speedier and fairer resolutions.

I will have another post on this particular issue later today.

In summary to your question though, 'What do we do about the frauds?" (sumarized)
Expose them in a polite, professional manner, and keep your cool. Then work -with- us to help you in pursuit of the truth. We don't want the frauds here any more than you do, as our goal is to make this place a complete resource for the martial arts.

 

[Matt Stone]

Thanks for the clarification. As a paralegal working in criminal prosecution, I just want to know what the rules are so I can play within them and use them the way they need to be used.

I will endeavor to help the "Horror Stories and Budo gone Bad" forum to get used more often and not degenerate into a mud slinging forum of rec.martialarts fame.

Thanks again.

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
I will endeavor to help the "Horror Stories and Budo gone Bad" forum to get used more often and not degenerate into a mud slinging forum of rec.martialarts fame.

Hey! I like Rec.Martial-Arts.


Such is life folks. Sometimes I personally feel I have taken it in the @ss from the moderators but then again I have probably given them about as much back. (More than likely more.) Sometimes I feel like I have been left out to dry because of who I am and other times I look back and go, "D@mn, I was right there but did I ever steamroll some people who didn't deserve it in the process." Then my stupid pride gets in the way and makes it hard to apologize. Sometimes I think, "Aw well, they'll see I'm right and understand." but perhaps I should apologize anyway.

Sometimes you even need a higher up to grab you by the collar and sit yer @ss down and say, "Shaddup!" when you're hot under the collar. I'll be the first to admit that when Kirk and I were not getting along I needed someone to yank my leash to bring me back to reality because I was not acting rationally. Did I like it when it happened? Hell no. Did I need it? Hell yes.

You reap what you sow and while that means you benefit from what you do, you also deal with the consequences. Ying/Yang, good/bad, it's all a part of life. Personally I think that threatening to leave and not come back because there are things I don't like is grade threeish. When I get frustrated I take a leave of absence and train my @ss off. As long and as hard as I can until I feel I can come back level headed.

So I have a suggestion. (Please feel free to tell me to shove it up my wazoo too if you want) How about we all take a step back today and go train our butts off for a bit? Then we can all come back and re-look at this. Unless I am talking out of my **** again...

 

[Matt Stone]

Shove it up your wazoo.



Seriously, though, you are probably right. We should all spend more time training than we do typing. That having been said, some folks really need a stick upside the head sometimes... :angry:

Whatever. The Mods are taking care of it now. Personally, I am waiting to see what happens after 1 May.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: