We've Lost one...

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Shove it up your wazoo.

I have a habit of going off half cocked and it's gotten me into trouble. I'm working on it. I still think I'm right most of the time but I'm working on finding another way to say it.

I'm not the only one who needs to work on it. Just trying to offer up my experience.

Cheers.:cheers:

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

That having been said, some folks really need a stick upside the head sometimes... :angry:

Hey, I resemble that remark!



Nice post from both you and Gou

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by GouRonin
Such is life folks. Sometimes I personally feel I have taken it in the @ss from the moderators but then again I have probably given them about as much back. (More than likely more.) Sometimes I feel like I have been left out to dry because of who I am and other times I look back and go, "D@mn, I was right there but did I ever steamroll some people who didn't deserve it in the process." Then my stupid pride gets in the way and makes it hard to apologize. Sometimes I think, "Aw well, they'll see I'm right and understand." but perhaps I should apologize anyway.

This post contains an admirable amount of introspection and honesty. I suspect--I believe--it applies to all of us, but I certainly find it hard to attain this level of self-inspection and self-honesty as often as I'd like.

Great post.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by GouRonin
I have a habit of going off half cocked and it's gotten me into trouble. I'm working on it. I still think I'm right most of the time but I'm working on finding another way to say it.

Ditto.

 

[arnisador]

Let me expand slightly on Mr. Hubbard's response to Mr. Stone. Feel free to ask questions of someone you suspect is a fraud. We'll send a warning if we feel it's warranted. A warning is not considered a negative thing in this instance--it's an indication that in our opinion the tone has drifted too far from what we want for MartialTalk. So, we take the point of view that we'll help identify those boundaries so that no issue arises.

We don't want frauds here, but we also don't want a negative pall cast over discussions. Identifying frauds is something E-Budo is known for; we want to be known for friendly discussion. It's a design compromise.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
ok folks....I've been hammering at this issue since I was made aware of it. As I said earlier, I had a lot of stuff to wade thru, and a few very long threads with alot of posts that were pure ********.

Its 3:30AM here, I should have been asleep 2 hours ago. We spent about 3 hours in a 3 way going thru a number of particulars that surround this. Some people are not going to like these decisions. We've been as fair as we can, all things considered and carefully weighed out. The final decision took over an hour to come to.

First things first...

Duplicate Accounts. - These are against our rules. The software attempts to stop this, but it can be fooled. We are well aware that there are duplicate accounts in use. As we can, we eliminate then, espeically when they are only used to cause trouble. Shuri-te, Shuri te and Sensei Mike are all the same individual. Sensei Mike admits to creating the Shuri-te account to needle RyuShiKan. This violates another rule.

RyuShiKan - I'm going to be blunt here. He is a pain in the ***. He is the 'Sam Kinison' of the forums...he gets in your face and screams 'Say It!'. Some people can not, or will not take it. He has driven several individuals away or underground with his 'in your face', 'put up or shut up' approach. This has gotten him a number of enemies. I am not 1 of those. I have butted heads with him in the past. I have grown to have a respect for him in the last year. He has been suspended from this forum in the past, and received several warnings for his actions. That said, I looked at -this- matter solely on what happened in this instance, and then weighed it against his past contributions. He has a very developed sence of what is 'the right thing' and will pursue it in as direct and blunt a manner as he can, damn the rest.

Shuri-te - around 20 posts, most looking to be pure BS that seems to be geared towards pushing RyuShiKan's known buttons. Other than this, I dont know much. The posts rambled so much that I got lost on a few occations. On repeated rereads, I determined that the first person to push a button was in fact Shuri-te. I did not reexamine 'Sensei Mikes'.


Distilled down to its base points, I see this as a case of someone (SM) signs up and makes a few posts that sent up 'warning flags' to R, who then pursued clarification and answers. SM was issued a warning and then disappeared. A while later R gets into issues with another member, and using the name of this members art, SM logs in as ST with the sole purpose of sowing confusion and setting up R to get himself in trouble. A series of huge posts with no real answers sends R over the limits, and an administrator seeing what appears to be a flame war between a new member and a past problematic member, suspends the 'hoter' of the 2.

emails are exchanged which only increases the tension between the admin and R.

(Note folks, if we suspend you, and you feel the need to discuss it, 3 suggestions : 1 - contact a different mod/admin, 2- calm cool and collected works better than hot, pissed and sarcastic. 3-wait an hour or 2.)

At this point, evidence starts to turn up (provided by R and our server logs) that there was more to this.

At this point...
We have examined the evidence, the past records of those involved, weighed it all out, debated it until all 3 admins were very pissed off, and I have been forced to make some hard decisions. This is a compromise to try to be as fair as possible. Based on a number of issues, we would not be remiss to issue bans here...but we did not.

Shuri-te/Shuri te/Sensei Mike - is suspended from MartialTalk until May 1st.

RyuShiKan - is suspended from MartialTalk until March 21st.

It is my hope that both parties will return and utilize this forum in the spirit in which it is provided. It is no place for vendetas. You have the right to ask someone to provide additional information. They have the right to refuse to do so. They say that actions speak louder than words...I believe in this case, the actions were words, which have painted a very clear picture.


==========
It is now 4am...I need sleep badly.
Good night.
:asian:

I don't understand what the confusion is. It seems pretty clear to me. You have all the facts there. One guy was wrong. RSK has not done anything wrong. He is at worst, quilty of lack of polished manners. BIG FREAKING DEAL !!!! I would pick him over other garbage posters any day. THis is coming from someone he at first called a troll. So, it isn't like I am his bossom buddy. But the guy is an valuable asset to this forum. His posts are must read.

You have already have the facts there. I see no reason to suspend RSK at all. That makes no sense. Can't you people tell RIGHT from WRONG? It seems pretty obvious which one should be banned and which one should be commended.

I would think that with his tireless effort in getting the facts straight from all the boastfull posters making shameless claim, you people would be wise enough to recognize what a tremenduous contribution RSK is making to this forum. One would think that RSK should be made a moderator or administrator. Instead, you warned him and suspended him? Good lord! The insanity!!! Are you mad? RSK does not make garbage claim. His posts are all substantiated by facts.

A forum is only as good as the people who post there. The way RSK is handled, is not what will make MT a better forum.

Do you want a mushy warmy forum, where every one pretends to be nice to everyone while 99% of the posts are bogus BS that no one gives a rat ***? Or would people would rather want a QUALITY forum where the information is scrutinized and questioned?

 

[Mike Clarke]

Or is it just this forum?

I haven't logged on for a little while and I can't belive what has happened in the short ime I was away.
If this idiot Mike [I use to be a grown up but I lost my brain} is allowed to continue on this forum then Bob you have to ask your self why any one else would bother being here?

I've never met RSK but I have learn tonnes from him and I wanted to learn more. But some muppit with an ego problem wants to have a go at him and M.T. steps up to back 'him' up.

I'm wondering if I should bother anymore?

If your not going to get rid of this shurite idiot I'll just make do with e-mailing Robert myself. If I leave the forum it won't be much of a loss, but letting people like Robert go is really shooting yourselves in the foot!

Mike Clarke
{one seriously P==d off Karate-ka}

 

[Rob_Broad]

It takes 2 for a conflict. I keep seeing peopel going ape over Ryu being suspended. First, I know for fact Sensie Mike will have his one acct terminated. Second, I remeber when Sensei Mike first joined, he was attacked immediately by Ryu and that is where this all started. They have both done things against the rules of MT therefore they have both been suspended. I was part of the Moderation here for a little while and I know how hard of a job these guys do trying to keep everyone happy. I realized very quickly it is impossible to keep everyone happy.

I applaud the moderation team for handling this matter in the manner they have. No one has been permanently removed from MT and therefore that allows the parties involved to try and play nicely in the future. We all make mistakes in life, it is whether we learn form them or not that makes the difference. Ryu may learn to speak with a little more tact from this incident. Sensei Mike may learn it is better to be upfront about things.

The last thing needed is for us as members to be going off about how unfair this is or that was. It is in the past, lets just let it stay there. We do not need to keep pushing this issue. It took people to argue, and both have been punished. Ryu was given a suspension of a few weeks for being a participant. Sensei Mike was given a couple months because he was the instigator. With some luck maybe everyone can finally let this issue go.

 

[sweeper]

yeah I don't think the mods took SM's side, they banned him too.. and I don't think they banned RSK for anything he did against SM but rather his genneral behavior with a third party.. RSK was accusing someone else of being a fraud because some of their history looked like SM's, the mods thought he went overboard on him and I thought that was why he was banned.. not because of anything he did to SM but because he let that carryover to a third party who had no idea what was going on.

Maybe I'm wrong.. Maybe a mod could post to clear that up?

 

[Angus]

Jonathan Napalm, I think you have a SERIOUS underestimation of what it takes to run a large forum like this and to keep it as well moderated and civil as it is. This forum is FANTASTIC; probably the best on the internet. I was a moderator for almost 2 years of another site, talkbass.com, which is a forum very similiar to this in it's civility and quality (albeit in a musical sense, though for every rec.martial-arts there's an alt.bass.guitar forum) but it has like 35,000 members. Problems like this happen pretty consistantly, and sometimes both parties need to take some blame.

In this case especially, a lot of people who aren't doing any sort of moderation disagree with the decision made, and are making note of it quite strongly publically. Quite honestly, I'd simply say to you guys: tough. Nobody really understands the full bredth of the energy it requires to read every single post in every thread of the forums you moderate every single day, before you can read the threads that interest you elsewhere. It requires a LOT of effort, believe me. If they make decisions on something, which in this specific case are fairly small with no bannings, just let it be and (I think) don't take up the issue with the moderator publically. It's enough work for them to not only keep this site as fantastic as it is on a day to day basis, let alone to have to explain every single decision they make publically so as not to cause an uprising. J Napalm's specific post sounded very much like the child yelling at his mother for buying him only 1 toy and not 2; he got something he wanted but still complained anyway because he didn't get everything he wanted. Be appreciative of what these folks do for you; they've given you an outstandingly civil forum with intelligent discussions and even polite debates so there is no need to be rude back at them at the slightest of disagreements.

While I do very much enjoy Ryushikan's posts and his highly extensive knowledge of anything Okinawa (among many other things), look at it from the moderators perspective: the lineage witchhunts, however useful they are in exposing frauds, makes a lot of work for the moderators and ESPECIALLY Bob Hubbard. Most of it may be behind the scenes, but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. From their perspective, it's simply punishing both sides of the one going argument; Ryushikan vs. 'frauds'. Even though he was definitely set up, it doesn't change the fact of the matter that he would've acted the same way had it NOT been a set up. I do, however, not wish Ryushikan to leave permenantely, as he is a wealth of information that has yet to nearly be tapped, however it's a difficult situation because of all the trouble to whole exposé has caused. I would love to see him come back when the moderators wish his suspension to be up. Ryushikan is a very intelligent man, and I hope he understands the situation from the perspective of the people running the site as well; nobody wants him to leave permenantly.

I think the whole situation from the Ryushikan sympathizers side has been made a far larger deal than it need be; he was penalized for repeated action, but so was the other guy who was penalized further and likely won't come back. Think of it this way; given his action, the latter likely won't really be accepted back because of his strange course of action seeking retribution, but Ryushikan will be back with open arms. Some time off is alright, he can always spend it doing some extra training! Most large forums that are similiar to this one wouldn't give such a light punishment, but because we're more of a closeknit family he receives a (truly) light punishment comparatively. Why? Rules are rules regardless, and they must be upheld regardless of the person in question. Were Ryushikan's intentions poor? No, not in the least. But it doesn't change the fact of the matter that rules were broken or bended, regardless of the person with which they were in relation to (shuri-te or whatever). He's not being that severely chastized in the least, simply that he had to pay for the rules being upheld, which, quite honestly, I'd much rather see because if they're upheld stronger people will follow them stronger which makes for a stronger forum with better discussions. No worries, in three weeks he'll be back and things will be 100% normal. Don't get me wrong, I agree with Ryushikan and he's one of my favorite members to read, but let's not make this anymore difficult for the moderators than necessary.

Simply from the perspective of someone who's been a moderator longer than this site has been around, I think everyone owes all of the moderators and especially Bob Hubbard a very LARGE thanks. What the do for the site is practically beyond the comprehension of most of the people here and we ALL take it for granted far too often. Much thanks to all of you; your work on this site, one of the best martial arts forums on the net, is truly underappreciated. It's very difficult to create a forum as civil and well organized as this one is. Thank you guys very much!

I don't mean to sound authoritarian or argumentative in the least with all this; I've simply had some experience in the matter and may see it a bit differently than some of you. Regardless of what happens, I would hate to see Ryushikan go and I think it would be an unnecessary loss, but the moderators have to upheld the rules as possible to maintain evenness throughout our community. That's what we're striving to be, after all: a community. In the end, the decisions are the moderators and the moderators alone, and their decision will reflect their interpretation of that.

Give it time to sort it self out.

Chris

PS: Mods, you'll receive a PM from me within a day or two. I'll let the smoke clear a little bit beforehand though.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by sweeper
Maybe I'm wrong.. Maybe a mod could post to clear that up?

We're reluctant to say much more than we have already in order to protect the privacy of all involved. However, a variety of factors have been considered, including what was posted, relevant history, and e-mails/PMs between the mods. and various parties. We spent a lot of time doing research on this before reaching a decision.

To Angus: I think in a year I'll be able to write a post like yours! It's a lot of work, but overall it's been very rewarding. My favorite part is when I find that members have gotten together in real life to train because of discussions on MartialTalk. That's very uplifting! But the time commitment involved is indeed considerable--including a great deal of time spent in discussion with the mods. over administrative matters (which helps explain my high post count)--and as you say, I must read through much of relatively low interest to me before I can settle into what I personally care about. But I feel that Mr. Hubbard has created a wonderful resource here and am pleased to be able to help with the project!

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by arnisador
This post contains an admirable amount of introspection and honesty.

Yeah... makes you wonder if Gou really wrote it...

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Enough of the *** kissing, angus. (sorry of being blunt) The owner of the forum knows full well that it is the participants that make the forum work. Without quality posters, no forum is going to mean anything. There are lots of people like angus, who are profoundly appreciative of forum operators, as if they are running a soup kitchen for us homeless folks. On the contrary, the forum owners would roll over and fold, if not for quality posters. NO need to take my words for it. Just go check out other MA forums. Few people post there, because there are no HEAVY WEIGHT posters there and hence NOT many posts worth reading. So why bother to go there?

Anyone can start a forum. To attract and keep qualified posters, is another story. Pissing off the quality posters, and the forum will go the same route as other also run MA forum where only 3-4 people visit each day.

Punishing people such as RSK, is shooting yourself in the foot. He does not need to give a hoot to all this BS. He is giving a lot more than he is taking from this forum. He does not need the insult for all his contribution.

There are only a few people who are HEAVY WEIGHT here. They are the reason I am still here. Most of the other posts, I seldom bother to click on them. But RSK's and a few others' are must read.

That does not mean people such as RSK should be given a licence to kill. But when he is doing a public service for the benefits of everyone here, and YET, he got punished for "participating" in the argument? How insulting !! If I were him, my response would be 'Scr#$% that! You and all the fraudsters deserve each other!"

Since I am posting unrestrained, I would expect a warning soon, huh?

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
The owner of the forum knows full well that it is the participants that make the forum work. Without quality posters, no forum is going to mean anything.

I believe that I can speak on behalf of Mr. Hubbard here: Yes, it's our members who provide the content for MartialTalk, and it's the content and discussions that draw people in. We are very cognizant of that fact.

You may however underestimate both the technical difficulty involved in maintaining the forum software and its server, and the difficulties inherent in maintaining an atmosphere conducive to these discussions. Once again, we ask for your patience as we do the best we can to provide a place for the content to appear--and we also ask that you ascribe any errors or failings on our part to something other than ill will.

Since I am posting unrestrained, I would expect a warning soon, huh?

This is a difficult issue that we are discussing. We recognize that. Members are concerned about this for all the right reasons. We don't intend to prohibit the discussion of our policies. We have changed policies in the past based on member input.

This particular matter however has been resolved to the best of our ability and we do not expect to change our minds on it. We're discussing amongst ourselves how we can do better next time. Constructive criticism in this regard is most welcome.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

The technical issues are a dime a dozen and are nothing new. What is seldom mentioned is that in trying to upheld the rules/regulations, the forum ended up insulting the intelligence of the posters. The admin may be thinking of the "fairness" issue, but, may ended up NOT being fair to the posters who are contributing time and effort as a public service.

I have witness this happened in other forums. They would punish both parties in any argument, irrespective of who is right or wrong. The ultimate effect is MASS EXODUS of the heavy weights, as they don't need to put up with BS, when they are giving more than they are taking.

Every time I read some people praising how forums are offering us poor lost souls a home and how we should be ever so profoundly grateful, I have to laugh at the naivty of such notion. I have seen forums rolled over and collapsed when the heavy weights got sick of the BS and just left en mass.

My view here does not mean I perceive any illwill on the admin's part. Rather I am offering a perspective from a different angle, which some people may not be willing to express.

 

[Rob_Broad]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
The technical issues are a dime a dozen and are nothing new. What is seldom mentioned is that in trying to upheld the rules/regulations, the forum ended up insulting the intelligence of the posters. The admin may be thinking of the "fairness" issue, but, may ended up NOT being fair to the posters who are contributing time and effort as a public service.

I have witness this happened in other forums. They would punish both parties in any argument, irrespective of who is right or wrong. The ultimate effect is MASS EXODUS of the heavy weights, as they don't need to put up with BS, when they are giving more than they are taking.

Every time I read some people praising how forums are offering us poor lost souls a home and how we should be ever so profoundly grateful, I have to laugh at the naivty of such notion. I have seen forums rolled over and collapsed when the heavy weights got sick of the BS and just left en mass.

My view here does not mean I perceive any illwill on the admin's part. Rather I am offering a perspective from a different angle, which some people may not be willing to express.

If you don't like the way they run things here start your own forum and shut the hell up.

When I get the warning or whatever for this post I will take it because I know I am in violation of the rules, and won't ***** about it because I am man enough to accept responsibility for my actions.

 

[JDenz]

I don't know what every one is all fired up about RSK. He is a hot head like some of the rest of us. He has been warned many times I am sure. Maybe he was right this time maybe not, it doesn't even matter it is the way that he went about it.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad
If you don't like the way they run things here start your own forum and shut the hell up.

When I get the warning or whatever for this post I will take it because I know I am in violation of the rules, and won't ***** about it because I am man enough to accept responsibility for my actions.

Oh yes, this is EXACTLY the attitude that caused mass exodus. Keep this up!

It is absolutely SO TYPICAL! And guess what? At that forum, the mods were all so arrogant about it, AND the heavy weigths DID EXACTLY that! They left and started their own forum, taking 500-600 of the heavy weight members with them overnight. And the old forum collapsed.

I suppose, the next thing I hear would be, "YEAH, you go and do that!"

 

[Aegis]

Just out of interest, which forum was that? And where did they all go?

 

[James Kovacich]

I would like to make a quick comment. I was not going to say anything but my name was briefly mentioned and I want to add to that.

I have to give a lot of credit to "few" guys that I felt at one time attacked me. They did something that a lot of people don't do. When they hit me, they stayed there for me to hit them back.

I felt overwhelmed because there were also those who hit and run and so you don't know who is who(thats a good excuse anyway ) and you feel ovewhelmed a bit.

But to the "few", they know who they are, I grew to respect them for what they represented and how they went about it. If you push me, I'll push you too. They were the same as me in that respect and RYUSHIKAN was one of them, and I really do hope he comes back!