Well rounded taekwondo

[Headhunter]

It seems like some people are split on the issue. From what I’m seeing most people seem to recommend Brazilian jujitsu, judo or hapkido. So which of these 3 would be the most beneficial to round out a taekwondo stylist and make him more comfortable on the street or in a grappling encounter?

Just do what interests you most...this question is silly in my opinion because firstly do you really plan to be in that many street fights that you need this as a priority. If not then just do what you enjoy most this is a hobby not a career for most people you don't /have/ to do any of it. I do jiu jitsu it's got weaknesses I know that and I don't care because I enjoy it. I don't train it to be well rounded or so I can beat someone on the street if I go down. I do it because its fun and I enjoy it.

 

[drop bear104]

Just do what interests you most...this question is silly in my opinion because firstly do you really plan to be in that many street fights that you need this as a priority. If not then just do what you enjoy most this is a hobby not a career for most people you don't /have/ to do any of it. I do jiu jitsu it's got weaknesses I know that and I don't care because I enjoy it. I don't train it to be well rounded or so I can beat someone on the street if I go down. I do it because its fun and I enjoy it.

On that note. I enjoy the functionality of martial arts because I am more able to use it.

Regardless of self defence the more well rounded someone is the more they can productively interact with other martial artists.

 

[DanT]

My point is, if I go up against a BJJ fighter, is his fighting stance going to be on his back? Or is he going to stand up, and then try to bring me down to his level?

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This is also why I thought Judo would be pretty good, since I'd rate it higher in clinch/stand-up and still a 2/3 in Ground. It's still going to make up where Taekwondo is lacking, just where Taekwondo is lacking less. Really, any grappling art will complement Taekwondo in that fashion. Hapkido will really help with the stand-up grappling, Wrestling will really help in the clinch, etc.

Where BJJ + TKD will get you more threes, I think Judo or Wrestling will get you more 2+ scores on your chart.

I actually think it would be fun to see where each art (based on the average school for the art) ranks in the various traits. That could be an interesting table.

I can say for my primary art (Wing Chun):

Kicking: 2/3
Punching: 3/3
Clinch: 3/3
Stand-Up Grappling: 1/3
Ground-Fighting: 0/3

And Shaolin:

Kicking: 3/3
Punching: 3/3
Clinch: 1/3
Stand-Up Grappling: 3/3
Ground-Fighting: 2/3

I think BJJ complements almost any art apart from the few other Ground-Fighting specific arts such as Sambo.

 

[DanT]

It seems like some people are split on the issue. From what I’m seeing most people seem to recommend Brazilian jujitsu, judo or hapkido. So which of these 3 would be the most beneficial to round out a taekwondo stylist and make him more comfortable on the street or in a grappling encounter?

I would say BJJ. It helps you with the area you're the least proficient in.

 

[Axkick1]

Just do what interests you most...this question is silly in my opinion because firstly do you really plan to be in that many street fights that you need this as a priority. If not then just do what you enjoy most this is a hobby not a career for most people you don't /have/ to do any of it. I do jiu jitsu it's got weaknesses I know that and I don't care because I enjoy it. I don't train it to be well rounded or so I can beat someone on the street if I go down. I do it because its fun and I enjoy it.

Good for you. I’m asking because I’m curious and want to hear other martial artists views.

 

[Axkick1]

Just do what interests you most...this question is silly in my opinion because firstly do you really plan to be in that many street fights that you need this as a priority. If not then just do what you enjoy most this is a hobby not a career for most people you don't /have/ to do any of it. I do jiu jitsu it's got weaknesses I know that and I don't care because I enjoy it. I don't train it to be well rounded or so I can beat someone on the street if I go down. I do it because its fun and I enjoy it.

Maybe I do plan on being in many street fights. I always want to be prepared. I love martial arts as a hobby AND as a method of self protection. I try to practice by both ways of thinking.

 

[Headhunter]

Maybe I do plan on being in many street fights. I always want to be prepared. I love martial arts as a hobby AND as a method of self protection. I try to practice by both ways of thinking.

Well if you plan to get in street fights then you really need to take a look at yourself. Being prepared is one having it take over your whole thinking is a bit silly in my eyes and honestly it really makes no difference how much you train you can always be caught unprepared a random idiot could walk up to a professional fighter and put him down with a punch in a bar. I've seen it happen or a mugger could come up and stab a fully trained soldier. Training doesn't make you invincible. It helps but it's not everything. There are people out there with no training who are tough and strong and fit and vicious and have no remorse or morals. I've been training martial arts for over 30 years and I wouldn't fancy my chances against people like that. Best way to be prepared is self preservation. You see a crowd of people shouting and swearing and seem drunk, cross the road move away from them things like that that's the best way for self defence

 

[Gerry Seymour11]

I want to avoid the ground but I also want a style that gets me out of sticky grappling situation and back to my feet and if I end up on the ground and can’t get up I’d be able to competently hold my own and even negate my attackers ground submissions.

For that combination, I'd be thinking either Judo (because there's a really good focus on not being taken down, plus some reasonable groundwork) or BJJ (because that builds strong competency on the ground, and many places do teach getting up after you get control back). There are probably other solutions, and whether either of those is a good answer for you will ultimately depend upon what's near you. Since you already train, you probably know that finding a school/instructor that you like is important, so you'll train more regularly and stick with it long enough to gain competency.

 

[Gerry Seymour11]

It seems like some people are split on the issue. From what I’m seeing most people seem to recommend Brazilian jujitsu, judo or hapkido. So which of these 3 would be the most beneficial to round out a taekwondo stylist and make him more comfortable on the street or in a grappling encounter?

For what you want, Judo is more likely to enhance your ability to stay standing (and handle a clinch). BJJ is more likely to help you handle things on the ground. Decide whether you're more interested in dominating on the ground (advantage to BJJ) or being harder to take down (advantage to Judo).

Hapkido, from what I've seen (pretty limited exposure) doesn't have a strong ground game, and typically doesn't do nearly as much resisted training, so you won't get the benefit of training to stop someone from taking you down. On paper, it doesn't fit what you are asking for (though the right Hapkido school actually might).

 

[JR 137]

I’ll give my wrestling point of view here...

Wrestlers do NOT want to be on their back. That’s the absolute worst place to be during a wrestling match. Wrestlers will work to get off their back any way possible - either a reversal or an escape (back on their feet). Wrestlers won’t spend time on their back trying to set up stuff in competition (unless they’re really good and going against someone who’s awful).

Wrestling spends a lot of time training takedowns, and therefore a lot of time defending them. This is a big reason why MMAers who have no wrestling experience but do have a lot of grappling experience cross-train in wrestling. If wrestling has a forte in MMA, it’s takedown defense.

Wrestling has some big drawbacks, depending on your priorities...
They train to fall on their stomach instead of their back to avoid a pin. Great for wrestling competition, bad for SD.
No submissions and chokes. After some time, you can easily come up with your own, but you’re really not doing that during regular practice.

Wrestling pros...
Takedowns and avoiding them (throws and legs)
Getting off your back
Intense conditioning and mental toughness
Getting the job done as quickly as possible
- BJJ seems very patient with people content to stall and wait as long as it takes for an opening. Wrestling has strict stalling rules and due to short time limits, wrestlers won’t wait around for opening
- This all relative, of course

Wrestling is getting a lot of MMA attention. For pure SD reasons, I’d go BJJ or Judo personally because the chokes and submissions are the ultimate point. Wrestling’s ultimate point is a pin.

Wrestling is a very tough sport and will turn just about anyone who takes it seriously into a capable self-defender (is that a word?). There’s less adaptation of technique to pure SD in Judo and BJJ.

I have no experience in Judo nor BJJ to really speak of. I wrestled from grades 3-12, and coached it on and off for a 10 year period. I was an on-the-mat assistant, not a barking orders head guy I could have a false idea of what really goes in Judo and BJJ, but I know quite a few practitioners.

And between wrestling, Judo and BJJ, rolling is rolling. The principles of body control, balancing your and your opponent’s weight, body positioning, etc. all carry over across them. The throws are very similar too. There’s some variation in them, but they’re not night and day differences that I see and one style doesn’t have a superior version of every single throw IMO.

One advantage wresting has over the other two is no reliance on the uniform to do techniques. No-gi BJJ does this too, but not everyone does no-gi.

 

[Tony Dismukes103]

A lot will depend on the individual school of BJJ/Judo/Hapkido/etc. Both the quality of the instruction and the focus on what context to apply the skills in will vary.

Since you are primarily concerned with defending yourself and getting back to your feet if the fight goes to the ground against your will, I can offer some generalizations which you would need to check against the specific schools available to you in your area.

BJJ
Pros: Has some of the most technically advanced curriculum for fighting on the ground, especially if you are stuck in an inferior position. Also you will get lots and lots of live sparring time in ground fighting so you will know exactly what you can and can't pull off under pressure against a tough opponent.

Cons: Many BJJ schools these days are heavily focused on tournament competition, which means they may neglect stand-up clinching (including takedowns and takedown defense), defense against striking, and working to regain the feet. (On the other hand, many of these schools will also have an MMA program which will address those deficits.)

Judo
Pros: You'll develop excellent takedown skills, decent takedown defense, the ability to fall safely if you are taken down, and at least some ground grappling including the fundamentals of escaping when someone has you pinned. You'll get lots of live takedown practice against resisting opponents.

Cons: Most dojos these days are focused on the sport aspect of the art and don't cover the adaptations you have to make in order to protect yourself from punches while throwing your opponent. Those adaptations aren't tremendously hard to make, but if your school doesn't cover them you'll have to do some extra-curricular work to master them. Depending on the dojo, work on the ground can range from adequate to excellent, however there will probably not be much focus on defending strikes or regaining the feet.

Wrestling
Pros: Possibly the best for developing clinching, takedowns, takedown defense, and the ability to regain your feet. Also it typically comes with a training culture which strongly emphasizes physical conditioning and mental fortitude. Lots of live grappling, so you'll have confidence in knowing exactly what you can pull off in a real situation.

Cons: Mostly available in scholastic settings (elementary, high school, college) for . Hard to find a stand-alone training facility for adult hobbyists. Your best bet would be to find an MMA gym that has a good wrestling coach. Dealing with strikes isn't part of the wrestling curriculum, but the nature of the art makes it easy to adapt to an environment where people are trying to hit you (more so than Judo). Unless you're lucky enough to have access to the rare catch wrestling school, you won't be learning submissions, but those aren't so relevant to your stated goals.

Hapkido/Aikido
Pros: Some useful concepts and techniques for standing situations where someone is trying to grab you. Some techniques (standing joint locks) which can be effective in certain specialized situations. You'll develop good skills in falling safely.

Cons: Little to no groundwork. If groundwork is taught, it is generally not good quality. You may be lucky enough to find a Hapkido school with adequately competent ground fighting, but I don't believe that's the norm. Not all schools include live sparring and many of the standard grappling techniques are low-percentage or useful only for specialized circumstances.

Sombo
Pros: Much like Judo and wrestling (since Sombo is essentially a blend of the Judo and various folk wrestling traditions). If you find a combat Sombo school it will include striking applications.

Cons: Hard to find.

Miscellaneous other Jujutsu styles
There are lots of modern eclectic jujutsu systems. Shingitai, Danzan ryu, Small Circle, and so on. Sometimes they call themselves traditional Japanese jujutsu, although they're not really all that traditional. Sometimes they'll flaunt their modern development. Typically they are built on a base of Judo and a grab bag of other arts. Quality can vary considerably, but many of them do teach solid standup and ground grappling from a combative perspective. (Others look good, but the quality really isn't there. Caveat emptor.)

Silat
I don't have a lot of personal experience with Silat, but some Silat systems do have an extensive curriculum for situations where one or both combatants are grounded. From what I've seen, it's typically not as good as jujutsu based systems from a pure grappling standpoint, but it's interesting because it's built on the assumption that bladed weapons will be present. This can change the tactics significantly - for example you may not want to take full mount on a downed opponent because he might snatch your own knife out of your belt holster and use it against you. I'll leave it to those with more experience to break down the pros and cons.

 

[Axkick1]

I’ll give my wrestling point of view here...

Wrestlers do NOT want to be on their back. That’s the absolute worst place to be during a wrestling match. Wrestlers will work to get off their back any way possible - either a reversal or an escape (back on their feet). Wrestlers won’t spend time on their back trying to set up stuff in competition (unless they’re really good and going against someone who’s awful).

Wrestling spends a lot of time training takedowns, and therefore a lot of time defending them. This is a big reason why MMAers who have no wrestling experience but do have a lot of grappling experience cross-train in wrestling. If wrestling has a forte in MMA, it’s takedown defense.

Wrestling has some big drawbacks, depending on your priorities...
They train to fall on their stomach instead of their back to avoid a pin. Great for wrestling competition, bad for SD.
No submissions and chokes. After some time, you can easily come up with your own, but you’re really not doing that during regular practice.

Wrestling pros...
Takedowns and avoiding them (throws and legs)
Getting off your back
Intense conditioning and mental toughness
Getting the job done as quickly as possible
- BJJ seems very patient with people content to stall and wait as long as it takes for an opening. Wrestling has strict stalling rules and due to short time limits, wrestlers won’t wait around for opening
- This all relative, of course

Wrestling is getting a lot of MMA attention. For pure SD reasons, I’d go BJJ or Judo personally because the chokes and submissions are the ultimate point. Wrestling’s ultimate point is a pin.

Wrestling is a very tough sport and will turn just about anyone who takes it seriously into a capable self-defender (is that a word?). There’s less adaptation of technique to pure SD in Judo and BJJ.

I have no experience in Judo nor BJJ to really speak of. I wrestled from grades 3-12, and coached it on and off for a 10 year period. I was an on-the-mat assistant, not a barking orders head guy I could have a false idea of what really goes in Judo and BJJ, but I know quite a few practitioners.

And between wrestling, Judo and BJJ, rolling is rolling. The principles of body control, balancing your and your opponent’s weight, body positioning, etc. all carry over across them. The throws are very similar too. There’s some variation in them, but they’re not night and day differences that I see and one style doesn’t have a superior version of every single throw IMO.

One advantage wresting has over the other two is no reliance on the uniform to do techniques. No-gi BJJ does this too, but not everyone does no-gi.

Wow very insightful, thank you!! Yes I was waiting for a wrestler to give their point of view. I figure if I am ever in an alternating I’ll start with my kicks and if I tried to get taken down wrestling would be beneficial for me staying in control and off my back. Catch wrestling would be great because they have submissions

 

[Axkick1]

A lot will depend on the individual school of BJJ/Judo/Hapkido/etc. Both the quality of the instruction and the focus on what context to apply the skills in will vary.

Since you are primarily concerned with defending yourself and getting back to your feet if the fight goes to the ground against your will, I can offer some generalizations which you would need to check against the specific schools available to you in your area.

BJJ
Pros: Has some of the most technically advanced curriculum for fighting on the ground, especially if you are stuck in an inferior position. Also you will get lots and lots of live sparring time in ground fighting so you will know exactly what you can and can't pull off under pressure against a tough opponent.

Cons: Many BJJ schools these days are heavily focused on tournament competition, which means they may neglect stand-up clinching (including takedowns and takedown defense), defense against striking, and working to regain the feet. (On the other hand, many of these schools will also have an MMA program which will address those deficits.)

Judo
Pros: You'll develop excellent takedown skills, decent takedown defense, the ability to fall safely if you are taken down, and at least some ground grappling including the fundamentals of escaping when someone has you pinned. You'll get lots of live takedown practice against resisting opponents.

Cons: Most dojos these days are focused on the sport aspect of the art and don't cover the adaptations you have to make in order to protect yourself from punches while throwing your opponent. Those adaptations aren't tremendously hard to make, but if your school doesn't cover them you'll have to do some extra-curricular work to master them. Depending on the dojo, work on the ground can range from adequate to excellent, however there will probably not be much focus on defending strikes or regaining the feet.

Wrestling
Pros: Possibly the best for developing clinching, takedowns, takedown defense, and the ability to regain your feet. Also it typically comes with a training culture which strongly emphasizes physical conditioning and mental fortitude. Lots of live grappling, so you'll have confidence in knowing exactly what you can pull off in a real situation.

Cons: Mostly available in scholastic settings (elementary, high school, college) for . Hard to find a stand-alone training facility for adult hobbyists. Your best bet would be to find an MMA gym that has a good wrestling coach. Dealing with strikes isn't part of the wrestling curriculum, but the nature of the art makes it easy to adapt to an environment where people are trying to hit you (more so than Judo). Unless you're lucky enough to have access to the rare catch wrestling school, you won't be learning submissions, but those aren't so relevant to your stated goals.

Hapkido/Aikido
Pros: Some useful concepts and techniques for standing situations where someone is trying to grab you. Some techniques (standing joint locks) which can be effective in certain specialized situations. You'll develop good skills in falling safely.

Cons: Little to no groundwork. If groundwork is taught, it is generally not good quality. You may be lucky enough to find a Hapkido school with adequately competent ground fighting, but I don't believe that's the norm. Not all schools include live sparring and many of the standard grappling techniques are low-percentage or useful only for specialized circumstances.

Sombo
Pros: Much like Judo and wrestling (since Sombo is essentially a blend of the Judo and various folk wrestling traditions). If you find a combat Sombo school it will include striking applications.

Cons: Hard to find.

Miscellaneous other Jujutsu styles
There are lots of modern eclectic jujutsu systems. Shingitai, Danzan ryu, Small Circle, and so on. Sometimes they call themselves traditional Japanese jujutsu, although they're not really all that traditional. Sometimes they'll flaunt their modern development. Typically they are built on a base of Judo and a grab bag of other arts. Quality can vary considerably, but many of them do teach solid standup and ground grappling from a combative perspective. (Others look good, but the quality really isn't there. Caveat emptor.)

Silat
I don't have a lot of personal experience with Silat, but some Silat systems do have an extensive curriculum for situations where one or both combatants are grounded. From what I've seen, it's typically not as good as jujutsu based systems from a pure grappling standpoint, but it's interesting because it's built on the assumption that bladed weapons will be present. This can change the tactics significantly - for example you may not want to take full mount on a downed opponent because he might snatch your own knife out of your belt holster and use it against you. I'll leave it to those with more experience to break down the pros and cons.

Thank you so much for breaking each grappling style down for me! I’ve always fancied wrestling and Russian sambo. It’s hard to pick just one. I guess I’ll just have to analyze my needs and pick one.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf104]

Thank you so much for breaking each grappling style down for me! I’ve always fancied wrestling and Russian sambo. It’s hard to pick just one. I guess I’ll just have to analyze my needs and pick one.

Do you have everything near you? I'd suggest figuring out what's nearby and narrowing down, so you don't decide on one, then get disappointed when you cant find it.

 

[Tony Dismukes103]

Thank you so much for breaking each grappling style down for me! I’ve always fancied wrestling and Russian sambo. It’s hard to pick just one. I guess I’ll just have to analyze my needs and pick one.

First thing is to see what's available for in your area. No point in getting your heart set on (for example) catch wrestling if the closest school is 300 miles away.

 

[Axkick1]

Do you have everything near you? I'd suggest figuring out what's nearby and narrowing down, so you don't decide on one, then get disappointed when you cant find it.

Yes I understand. There is a catch wrestling school about 1 hour south of me. In work traffic it’s like two hours though. There are a plethora of Brazilian jujitsu schools near my house. Also taekwondo schools. My main passion is taekwondo but I want to do some grappling on the side so I am more well rounded.

 

[Axkick1]

First thing is to see what's available for in your area. No point in getting your heart set on (for example) catch wrestling if the closest school is 300 miles away.

You are right. Trying not to get my hopes up but I’d really like to train wrestling. If it’s not near me I won’t make a fuss about it though.

 

[drop bear104]

Wrestling is getting a lot of MMA attention. For pure SD reasons, I’d go BJJ or Judo personally because the chokes and submissions are the ultimate point. Wrestling’s ultimate point is a pin.

A pin is fine if your goal is to hit people.

 

[Axkick1]

A pin is fine if your goal is to hit people.

Exactly! I’m not trying to be a master grappler, it would be nice, but right now I’m more focused on negating a grapplers attempts to get me to the ground.

 

[Axkick1]

Also I was drawn to wrestling because it doesn’t seem to rely on a jacket or gi. Seems like anyone can learn wrestling and use it anywhere. Not to say you can’t train no-gi but wrestling is the original “no-gi” lol. Am I right?