Weird lower shin kicks.

Happy-Papi

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Recently I have noticed that my son's kicks are becoming different than the kicks I normally see being used by most MAist. It started changing when one of his Karate teacher who is the champ holder taught him weird kicks. It looks similar to normal kicks but just inches before he hits the target, his lower leg suddenly twists and lands the most pointed part of his lower shin. The action is not that much visible but it is like a one inch punch (or one inch kick) but done in full, fast powerful kick. It is very hard to explain and I have never seen it used before even in kick based MA like TKD. The first person who showed us the technique was my son's Karate instructor but never seen it used by the other Karate instructor in the same dojo. He first demonstrated it to me by slowly lifting his leg very close (less than 4 inches) to my thigh the suddenly twisting his lower shin like a one inch punch. I have been kicked many times (even with jungle boots) but his demonstration really shook the inside muscle of my thigh and I could barely stand. The pain is very different compared to normal kicks and is like that the pain is coming from the inside of the muscle. It is like being kicked then suddenly having cramps??? Very hard to explain but very painful.

I can say that it was one of the most painful kicks that I have received and he was doing it very softly because it was just a demonstration. I've seen him do similar technique on a tournament and with just one low kick, his opponent was dragging his leg and could barely stand. I know he didn't use full force because his opponent was from our dojo too but I have heard stories about his other Kyokushin competition when he just gave low kicks and his opponents could not stand.

He has taught us the basic idea of the kick, but most of us couldn't imitate it but luckily my son absorbed it in one go. Even my wife could do it but I couldn't and my wife is not an MAist???

Yesterday me and my son had a quick sparring and he gave me a good weird roundhouse kick landing his lower shin on my shoulder. Next was when he tried to sweep my leg using the same weird technique. Both were very painful and he is not using full force yet.

When I studied Karate and TKD during my younger years, I was taught to use the ball, side and the heel of the foot when kicking and not much of the shin especially this one inch shin kick. In Kuntaw we use lots of the inside part of the foot. Then in CQC-FMA kicks became more simple because we wore jungle boots with metal toes so I never got used to using my lower shin for kicking. One thing I learned that my son have become proficient with this weird technique. He still use the normal ball, side, heel and inside of his foot but the most painful is his lower shin. I often complain about his kicks and it was just yesterday I learned and finally noticed that his kicks were different. If that kind of kick lands on my neck, it would be a killer. I want to learn the technique but couldn't because the movement isn't natural for me and the timing is just too difficult.

Anybody here who knows or is also using this same weird technique???
 

jks9199

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Hard to say. I know a few different ways to kick, and I think I may have an idea what you're describing, but I'm just not certain.

At a guess -- lots of people don't have the hip flexibility and control to use this method of driving the kick in, and that's why you haven't seen it.
 

K-man

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I've been teaching it for years although it was not taught years ago when I first started. If what your son is doing is similar to what I teach it is very similar to the Muay Thai way of striking with the shin. The pain really kicks in when you kick the nerve points especially the inner or outer thigh.

For what it's worth, I recently attended a Bas Rutten seminar and he was teaching the same kick that I teach.
:asian:
 
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Happy-Papi

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Hard to say. I know a few different ways to kick, and I think I may have an idea what you're describing, but I'm just not certain.

At a guess -- lots of people don't have the hip flexibility and control to use this method of driving the kick in, and that's why you haven't seen it.

Probably this is why my wife was able to imitate the technique because she has more flexible hips than me. Sad thing is that since she has learned it, she has been using it on me and my son when we are playing and it is painful, lol.
 
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Happy-Papi

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I've been teaching it for years although it was not taught years ago when I first started. If what your son is doing is similar to what I teach it is very similar to the Muay Thai way of striking with the shin. The pain really kicks in when you kick the nerve points especially the inner or outer thigh.

For what it's worth, I recently attended a Bas Rutten seminar and he was teaching the same kick that I teach.
:asian:

Thank you, thank you!!!
I haven't had the experience to spar with a Muay Thai practitioner but with what you wrote I had to watch Muay Thai on YouTube today and the technique looks very-very similar. It is like those fast Muay Thai twisting low kicks on the inner and outer thigh. I didn't notice that the target was the nerve point until you have explained it because it looks similar to other MA low kicks. This technique looks simple but is very sneaky and I am glad that you had explained it well. I envy you because you have this skill. Thank you again!!!
 
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Balrog

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Recently I have noticed that my son's kicks are becoming different than the kicks I normally see being used by most MAist. It started changing when one of his Karate teacher who is the champ holder taught him weird kicks.
...snip...
Anybody here who knows or is also using this same weird technique???
I don't think it's a "weird" technique per se. We call it an angle kick and it is used most commonly against the common peroneal pressure point on the outside of the thigh. Alternately, it can be used against the femoral pressure point on the inside of the thigh. And yes, the striking surface is the shinbone, just above the ankle.
 

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As you describe it, that roundhouse kick is fairly common in the Kyokushin Karate and its various offshoot lineages.
 

Zero

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Interesting comments. As said above, this kick is quite common if you are from a Muay Thai background, I think it is also becoming more "main stream" across other styles as well. I never saw this applicaiton in TKD when at high school but when I shifted to goju ryu I was taught this and we drilled on this a lot, and yes, the nerve bundle in the thigh is a popular target :) - and isn't it amazing how much it hurts?!!! This is not a goju technique by any means but my trainer must have come across this fighting or training with MT guys and I am very glad he decided to add it to the repertoire.

I really "roll" the leg over and connect with a downward strike with the lower shin into the opponent's leg. This maybe does require a certain degree of hip flexibility, I don't know, you do roll it through your hip socket. So while you are obviously coming in with a roundhouse/lateral motion, you impact with a rolling downward strike. I think this not only adds to the shin cutting into the target but I think produces more torque to the technique and you are hitting from "on high". You can do this off back leg for ultimate power or (as your son and his teacher seem to be doing) off the front leg from close range. Although I must admit I have never used this so close to be something like a "one-inch kick" - or even four inches; the range is close, and can be from well within punching range when I use it, but not that close. Thank you! - You have got me thinking as maybe I have been missing something and should - when I get some spare time - practice making this an even closer strike, if it is true you can generate substantial nerve pain and damage from so close in.
 
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Happy-Papi

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Interesting comments. As said above, this kick is quite common if you are from a Muay Thai background, I think it is also becoming more "main stream" across other styles as well. I never saw this applicaiton in TKD when at high school but when I shifted to goju ryu I was taught this and we drilled on this a lot, and yes, the nerve bundle in the thigh is a popular target :) - and isn't it amazing how much it hurts?!!! This is not a goju technique by any means but my trainer must have come across this fighting or training with MT guys and I am very glad he decided to add it to the repertoire.

I really "roll" the leg over and connect with a downward strike with the lower shin into the opponent's leg. This maybe does require a certain degree of hip flexibility, I don't know, you do roll it through your hip socket. So while you are obviously coming in with a roundhouse/lateral motion, you impact with a rolling downward strike. I think this not only adds to the shin cutting into the target but I think produces more torque to the technique and you are hitting from "on high". You can do this off back leg for ultimate power or (as your son and his teacher seem to be doing) off the front leg from close range. Although I must admit I have never used this so close to be something like a "one-inch kick" - or even four inches; the range is close, and can be from well within punching range when I use it, but not that close. Thank you! - You have got me thinking as maybe I have been missing something and should - when I get some spare time - practice making this an even closer strike, if it is true you can generate substantial nerve pain and damage from so close in.

Yes my son's Karate teacher told and showed me that it was like a rolling downward strike. When he showed it to me, he just slowly lifted his leg very close to my thigh, twisted and dropped his lower shin then BAM!!! I could barely stand!!!

Last week ago my son did a jumping roundhouse kick that landed on my bicep but instead of the normal jumping roundhouse kick, his legs went up as high as my head, twisted and dropped his lower shin. It was a direct hit to my bicep's pressure point, it was painful and even after several minutes I could still feel like electricity is running inside my arm. He told me that his real target was the neck or on the collarbone but since we are just practicing, he kicked me on my bicep. His body and kick looks more like a whip especially from the hips to the leg, going high then dropping. Even when he is doing a knee kick it looks like that his body is moving like a whip. He is practicing different weird kicks a lot and he told me that he will show it to me when he gets better (me very scared... hahaha!) And as you have said, it really is amazing how much it hurts! Tonight we talked about it again and he advised me to watch Tony Jaa...

I never came up with this technique but I am very happy to get answers from people like yourself who knows. The fun thing with martial arts is that even if we get efficient in an art or two, there will always be more tricks to learn. Thank you Zero!!!
 

mook jong man

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In my lineage of Wing Chun we use something very similar to this kick , we just call it a "Hook Kick" , my theory is that it is just a close range version of the kick we use on the wooden dummy where we use the heel , except in this case we are using the shin.
But apart from the two different impact surfaces used , the pivoting used to generate the force is identical.

As I said it is a close range kick and is used as a "Finisher" the opponent will be struck several times in the face with "Continuous Punch" and then at the end of that chain of movement , the Hook Kick will be employed to target anywhere around the thigh region.
Because it is used within punching range , wherever possible we will try and latch onto the opponents striking arm so that the force of the kick is enhanced by dragging the opponent off balance and into the kick.

The force of the kick is generated by pivoting the whole body 45 degrees as one unit with the upper and lower halves of the body locked together at the waist , with this method the force vectors are all heading in the one direction and a greater percentage of the body mass will be transferred at the point of impact.

Somewhat differently to other arts , in Wing Chun both hands stay up in the guard the whole time , the only exception is where one hand will be used to "latch" the opponents arm and pull them into the kick.

Unlike other arts where sometimes the leg is straightened , in Wing Chun the leg maintains the same angle the whole way from the stance to the target , because the power is not generated by the contraction of the quadricep muscles , it is mostly governed by the integrity of the stance and the speed of the pivot.

The kicking leg remains relaxed and the waist initiates the pivot and swings the shin into the target like a "dead weight" , most people when they feel it are very surprised that power can be generated from in this close without any type of wind up.
 
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Happy-Papi

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In my lineage of Wing Chun we use something very similar to this kick , we just call it a "Hook Kick" , my theory is that it is just a close range version of the kick we use on the wooden dummy where we use the heel , except in this case we are using the shin.
But apart from the two different impact surfaces used , the pivoting used to generate the force is identical.

As I said it is a close range kick and is used as a "Finisher" the opponent will be struck several times in the face with "Continuous Punch" and then at the end of that chain of movement , the Hook Kick will be employed to target anywhere around the thigh region.
Because it is used within punching range , wherever possible we will try and latch onto the opponents striking arm so that the force of the kick is enhanced by dragging the opponent off balance and into the kick.

The force of the kick is generated by pivoting the whole body 45 degrees as one unit with the upper and lower halves of the body locked together at the waist , with this method the force vectors are all heading in the one direction and a greater percentage of the body mass will be transferred at the point of impact.

Somewhat differently to other arts , in Wing Chun both hands stay up in the guard the whole time , the only exception is where one hand will be used to "latch" the opponents arm and pull them into the kick.

Unlike other arts where sometimes the leg is straightened , in Wing Chun the leg maintains the same angle the whole way from the stance to the target , because the power is not generated by the contraction of the quadricep muscles , it is mostly governed by the integrity of the stance and the speed of the pivot.

The kicking leg remains relaxed and the waist initiates the pivot and swings the shin into the target like a "dead weight" , most people when they feel it are very surprised that power can be generated from in this close without any type of wind up.

mook jong man,
You made things more complicated for my little brain, lol!!! Now I am sifting through your post slowly and trying to imagine how it is done Chinese Martial Arts style especially with the same shin kick technique but using the heel ??? (will have to search YouTube for this technique).

Though I'm from FMA-CQC and to be honest, I look up to CMA very highly (highest!). I believe that if there is some hidden techniques that I haven't seen or haven't heard of CMA has has it (but even more complex). You CMA guys can deliver attacks from the weirdest and most difficult angles and your techniques are so vast, complex and effective.

Many thanks!!!
 

mook jong man

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mook jong man,
You made things more complicated for my little brain, lol!!! Now I am sifting through your post slowly and trying to imagine how it is done Chinese Martial Arts style especially with the same shin kick technique but using the heel ??? (will have to search YouTube for this technique).

Though I'm from FMA-CQC and to be honest, I look up to CMA very highly (highest!). I believe that if there is some hidden techniques that I haven't seen or haven't heard of CMA has has it (but even more complex). You CMA guys can deliver attacks from the weirdest and most difficult angles and your techniques are so vast, complex and effective.

Many thanks!!!

Mechanically speaking they are the same kick , just the range at which they are used and the impact tool is different.
The 45 degree pivot of the whole body that generates the power for the kick is the same.

In the photo you will see the older gentleman using this kick to deflect his opponents kicking attack away from it's intended target and then striking through with his heel to the support leg.

With the hook kick , the body positioning is the same , except that the opponent is now too close to use the heel , so the shin is used instead to attack the opponents thighs.
The reason for only pivoting 45 degrees is that we still want to be able to recover and face the opponent square on , if we pivoted more than 45 degrees and the kick were not to land , then we could potentially find ourselves at a disadvantage with our sides or back now exposed to the opponent.

sifu-jim-fung-sigung-chu-shong-tin-chi-gerk-l.jpg
 

Zero

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Somewhat differently to other arts , in Wing Chun both hands stay up in the guard the whole time , the only exception is where one hand will be used to "latch" the opponents arm and pull them into the kick.
Very interesting post, while having done kicking styles for many years, I only staid with WC for just on a couple years and was never exposed to the real kicking side of the art (or given only 2 years, much of the art at all!).

You are right to note that many other styles or fighters do tend to drop the arm on their kicking side. Some, such as some Muay Thai fighters I have trained with, deliberately do this to add to the swing/torque motion. But I think many do this out of a somewhat bad tendency. I am not perfect (I know, it shocks even me!) and when tired or perhaps unfocused will drop the gloves but I think it is always good practice to keep your guard up (either for ready block or for punching) and this kick can be thrown easily enough (even at height) with both hands up so that both sides (and both sides of the face/head) have protection. Maybe even WC guys when they are gasping drop those hands too? I guess due to the general closeness and rapid punching of the style you would immediately end up on your backside if facing another WC chap.
 

mook jong man

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Very interesting post, while having done kicking styles for many years, I only staid with WC for just on a couple years and was never exposed to the real kicking side of the art (or given only 2 years, much of the art at all!).

You are right to note that many other styles or fighters do tend to drop the arm on their kicking side. Some, such as some Muay Thai fighters I have trained with, deliberately do this to add to the swing/torque motion. But I think many do this out of a somewhat bad tendency. I am not perfect (I know, it shocks even me!) and when tired or perhaps unfocused will drop the gloves but I think it is always good practice to keep your guard up (either for ready block or for punching) and this kick can be thrown easily enough (even at height) with both hands up so that both sides (and both sides of the face/head) have protection. Maybe even WC guys when they are gasping drop those hands too? I guess due to the general closeness and rapid punching of the style you would immediately end up on your backside if facing another WC chap.

You are correct , these kicks can also be done from within chi sau , so it would be suicide not to have both hands up and in position.
The only exceptions are if you are out of punching range and you are using both your arms to deflect an upper level kicking attack while you attack the opponents support leg .

The other one would be where you have manage to "Latch" one of the opponents arms , and with the latch and the 45 degree pivot working in unison the opponent will be pulled off balance and unable to strike as he is pulled into the hook kick , but even then our spare hand will still be guarding the face in the Wu Sau position.
 

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The other one would be where you have manage to "Latch" one of the opponents arms , and with the latch and the 45 degree pivot working in unison the opponent will be pulled off balance and unable to strike as he is pulled into the hook kick , but even then our spare hand will still be guarding the face in the Wu Sau position.

You are so right, if you can manage to latch you can do a world of fun stuff and hurt and actually (and kind of nastily) pull them into the strike - but should always still be wary of their other side. I need to ask, are you sure you are not actually a goju ryu practitioner?
 

Jackthekarateguy

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Ahh, so is this the variety of low roundhouse in which one initiates as if to kick at chest level then kinda rotates the leg and drops the shin into the target. This isn't so weird, slower but far more painful.
by the way, it would feel like pain is coming from inside the muscle, as the hard shin really bites to attack tendons and nerves beneath the muscle and fat tissue
 

punisher73

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I remember watching an interview with an "old school" Muay Thai instructor. He talked about how the "modern" muay thai students throw more circular roundhouse kicks from farther away. His version sounds very similiar to what you are describing. You didn't telegraph the kick as much and it came up from a straight chamber as if you are going to throw a front kick and then torgue the hips down and through. It is done from closer in and is harder to counter according to him.
 

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