Any one know which style kicks like this?

[Tez3]

Every so often we get someone who comes in to train with us who starts teaching his partners even though he literally hasn't been in the class two minutes. Last night was one and I'm curious as to what he was telling one of ours to do.We teach MT kicking, using the lower part of the shin to inflict a heavy kick to the thigh, we have TMA like myself who also can kick using the instep but this guy was telling his partner to kick so that the part of the leg that makes contact is just under the knee and he was telling him to 'push' it. I haven't come across this before, any ideas? It wasn't a 'productive' kick at all and it wasn't a knee strike. I'm wondering if any style teaches this or perhaps it's a corruption of something he's picked up? I'd like to know before I start to correct him lol!

 

[Chris Parker]

Impact below the knee? Er, no. For one thing the mechanics seem completely of for any real productive result (kicking with the shin gives reach and a hard striking surface, kicking with the instep, or even toes gives even more reach with a little sacrifice of impact hardness, knee strikes are incredibly hard close-in strikes focused in one point) as what this describes (to me) will have less impact than a knee strike, no distance advantage, no real speed advantage, no power advantage, and more. The closest I can think of (and you can probably tell how close to the mark this is) is an action to try to keep someone away by jamming your leg inbetween his incoming body and yours (essentially a fear responce, untrained and unskilled).

I would suggest asking him why he does it that way, what advantages it has, and then demonstrating how wrong he is. But that's how I handle such things (students saying "don't worry what Sensei showed, do it this way..." Always fun).

 

[Tez3]

Impact below the knee? Er, no. For one thing the mechanics seem completely of for any real productive result (kicking with the shin gives reach and a hard striking surface, kicking with the instep, or even toes gives even more reach with a little sacrifice of impact hardness, knee strikes are incredibly hard close-in strikes focused in one point) as what this describes (to me) will have less impact than a knee strike, no distance advantage, no real speed advantage, no power advantage, and more. The closest I can think of (and you can probably tell how close to the mark this is) is an action to try to keep someone away by jamming your leg inbetween his incoming body and yours (essentially a fear responce, untrained and unskilled).

I would suggest asking him why he does it that way, what advantages it has, and then demonstrating how wrong he is. But that's how I handle such things (students saying "don't worry what Sensei showed, do it this way..." Always fun).

Ah thank you! I was thinking it was a rubbish kick but didn't have a chance to ask him about it, and the one thing I'm sure of is how little I really know about martial arts! We get people in all the time from different styles, some just passing through as they are on courses some stay but then get deployed so we do get plenty of variety! I didn't want to show my ignorance and stay oi mate that's pants and him turning round saying it's the famous something or other kick! One of the guys had a little nick on his ear which bled a very little and this new guy said 'ah I thought I smelt blood', I think we have a bit of a know all here lol! When grappling he uses his weight not technique so now he's had his first 'we'll go easy on you till we can see what you can do' night we'll see if he comes back after his next session! :lol:

 

[Chris Parker]

The not showing ignorance is why you ask them to explain it first.... then you take them apart! That said, I've used this method on very legitimate approaches, more to show why we do it the way we do, rather than the other.

This guy certainly sounds like he wants to seem knowledgable and important, if we have a student show such leanings they are corrected, then pulled aside and told why they are being corrected, then invited not to return to class. The "I smelt blood" comment is interesting... it's a power play. Stomp him down. Hard. He has no interest in learning, or helping others, the best thing for him (and everyone there, particularly if they see what happens) is to quite simply take him to school, and ideally tell him not to come back. Harsh, but true. And straight out of Sun Tzu, by the way....

 

[Tez3]

The not showing ignorance is why you ask them to explain it first.... then you take them apart! That said, I've used this method on very legitimate approaches, more to show why we do it the way we do, rather than the other.

This guy certainly sounds like he wants to seem knowledgable and important, if we have a student show such leanings they are corrected, then pulled aside and told why they are being corrected, then invited not to return to class. The "I smelt blood" comment is interesting... it's a power play. Stomp him down. Hard. He has no interest in learning, or helping others, the best thing for him (and everyone there, particularly if they see what happens) is to quite simply take him to school, and ideally tell him not to come back. Harsh, but true. And straight out of Sun Tzu, by the way....

Funny you should say it's a power play, he's a military psychiatric nurse so I imagine well versed in mind games. I know his boss very well as a personal friend for many years so I'm going to see what he thinks about him ( I've asked my friend to join MT as well, he's a martial artist too, he's in Afghan at the moment so we'll see)

I'll have a talk to my instructor as he didn't see any of it as we'd had some kit stolen and he was trying to sort that out, he was very angry. Mick my instructor is not one you can play games with like that, he's very alpha male lol! Nice but has taken people down pegs before. I can see someone else hitting the mat hard soon

 

[Chris Parker]

Well, let's see, I can pretty much guarantee that when he said he smelt blood there was a little smile on his face (probably quite smug). The whole message he was trying to get across is "I recognise blood, I'm used to it because I'm dangerous, and I'm always around it, I enjoy it, and you should be scared of me because of that". Of course, to an experienced person (say, if he tried that with your Instructor... don't think he would, though. Something about those damned Alpha-types tend to stop Betas pretty quick....) the message is a little different: "I'm out of my depth, a little scared and insecure, but I'm going to try false bravado and see if you buy it. I'm going to make myself seem experienced where I'm not by doing what I think an experienced person would do, rather than what they actually would do, and put on a tough-guy image, even though a real "tough-guy" doesn't need to and can be rather gentle most of the time. Of course, I don't get that, so I'll try this". Slightly different message there....

Yeah, tell the Instructor, absolutely. Honestly I'd be a little worried about this guy as a psychiatric nurse, he seems to have gone to that for less-than-ideal reasons, and that can impact quite badly on his charges. Watch him.

 

[Tez3]

We have a chap who works as a prison officer, he just mentioned it in regard to something else and the new guy jumped in that he'd worked in a secure mental hospital where they send the 'criminally insane'. Chris, as usual you're spot on! We get really tough guys coming in and they are so laid back it's hard to think they are spec forces and the like, nothing to prove I guess.
In the services we have some non coms who seem to want to prove they are hard, many of the Dental Corps are like that for some reason, honestly!

 

[Chris Parker]

So another attempt to make himself look big... should have asked him what he did there, the laundry, or clean the toilets? And thanks, I try to understand people wherever and whenever I can, seems to help in conversations like this.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I know of no such kick, but I am far from a master. I do know of blocks and deflections done in that manner, some of which may start as a kick and then become a block or a deflection if the need arises; and of course strikes with the knee itself, but that is of course not what you mean, I understand.

In my dojo, the kicks we use, we land with the ball of the foot (koshi) or the edge (sokuto), or the heel (back kicks or shoba konate, using the kakato). We also practice non-Isshin-Ryu kicks that might land with the instep or higher up on the shin, especially when doing practice wheel-type kicks (otoshi geri) on a heavy bag. Personally, I like to kick with the instep, but we're warned that there are many small bones there that we could break accidentally.

I would be interested to hear what other areas of the leg or foot might be used to make contact with the opponent on a kick.

 

[Tez3]

I know of no such kick, but I am far from a master. I do know of blocks and deflections done in that manner, some of which may start as a kick and then become a block or a deflection if the need arises; and of course strikes with the knee itself, but that is of course not what you mean, I understand.

In my dojo, the kicks we use, we land with the ball of the foot (koshi) or the edge (sokuto), or the heel (back kicks or shoba konate, using the kakato). We also practice non-Isshin-Ryu kicks that might land with the instep or higher up on the shin, especially when doing practice wheel-type kicks (otoshi geri) on a heavy bag. Personally, I like to kick with the instep, but we're warned that there are many small bones there that we could break accidentally.

I would be interested to hear what other areas of the leg or foot might be used to make contact with the opponent on a kick.

That's the kicks I know too, I can't do a roundhouse with the ball of the foot though as I can't seem to 'bend' my foot enough, stiff feet lol, but I do know it. I can do push and snap front kicks with the ball and heel of the foot though. Hook,axe and back kicks with the heel, crescent kicks with the side of the foot, side kicks with edge as you say but I've never come across a roundhouse kick that lands with just under the knee with you 'pushing it' in. We do the dreaded Thai shin blocks, hellish painful they are to do, worse to receive if you don't have shin guards on. Knee strikes from straight on also using the hip to bring them round like a roundhouse kick, Thai style. I've looked up my Wado books by Shingo Ohgami where knee kicks are the knee strikes, point of knee lands the strike that most know. Nothing with below the knee. The TSD book by GM Kang Uk Lee, exactly the same. I was wondering if it were Chinese perhaps or something more obscure. Have to say I can't make it work and I think I would have in MMA somewhere if it were effective. Someone would have used it surely!

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Bill,

Well, I would say that the way Tez describes the kick above (in the OP) is one area that is not used to kick with! That said, here are a few more places of impact for you:

The flat of the foot (at the ball), used in some systems similar to an Axe-kick, but impacting with the ball for reach rather than the heel.

Inside edge of the foot (again at the ball), utilised in Ninjutsu systems, this is an in-close kicking method typically used in grappling situations as a set-up for a throw (or another grappling technique).

The toes (pointed and bunched together), again utilised in Ninjutsu systems, this "spearing" kick is targeted against softer areas (groin, bladder, inner thigh). Not advised without some pretty serious conditioning, however it's great with todays modern steel-capped boots!

Hmm, actually, the only practical use I can think of for the "below the knee, pushing action" described above.... we have a technique called Ashi Dori, or Ashi Dome (Capture the leg/Stop the leg) in which your foot is placed on the ground behind theirs (from the front), and you hook their leg. By pressuring forward, you can create a form of knee-bar. Don't know if you'd class it as a kick, though, we tend to think of it in the grappling skills.

Then you have multiple applications of such impact points. For example, the heel is used as a stomping kick forward (foot turned out), a stomp down (to damage an ankle, or another target present), a hooking inwards kick, a hooking outwards kick, a double-stomp (with an accompanying leap), and a few more. And that's just us again, many other systems have other uses as well!

All that said, though, once again I would point out that a martial art is not defined by it's techniques, a martial arts techniques are defined by the system. So while it can be interesting to know them all, it really doesn't matter that much, so long as you can express your own system, you can use anything (that the philosophy of your system agrees with!). Of course, with yourself, I think that's the case anyway.

 

[mook jong man]

Ah yes I remember this one particular time when I was in the Dental Corps , we were given the command to go in and clean the plaque of this poor chaps teeth.

I still remember it like it was yesterday , there were cavities to the left of us , cavities to the right of us and in the midst of it all the rotting stench of halitosis.
The horror ... the horror ...

 

[Bill Mattocks]

That's the kicks I know too, I can't do a roundhouse with the ball of the foot though as I can't seem to 'bend' my foot enough, stiff feet lol, but I do know it.

We train to do the roundhouse with the toes pointed up, which presents the ball of the foot. That way, the toes don't get broken and the ball of the foot makes contact without having to be excessively flexible; even I can do it! Some people can't really lift their toes up, but I practice this quite often and I can really curl those suckers up. I've broken a couple of my toes doing kicks, so I've learned the hard way.

We do the dreaded Thai shin blocks, hellish painful they are to do, worse to receive if you don't have shin guards on.

I was thinking more of a steering block with the knee/leg, rather than what you're describing. The knee comes up with the leg chambered like a snap kick is about to happen, but the knee crosses the center line slightly (in Isshin-Ryu, we do the crescent step for about everything, so that's natural for us) which protects the groin; if we are going to deliver the kick, we let it rip then; if we detect the need to block, we keep the leg chambered and make a sweeping motion with the knee/leg (kind of like an open hand sweeping block with the hand, which we call tegata barai when done with the hand) and then steer the incoming kick to the outside. So the knee comes up, crosses the center line, makes a very small and slight crescent, then makes a 'bump steer' kind of contact with the incoming kicking leg, rather than smashing straight into it, and steers it away from the body to the outside. The foot that is chambered then comes down and the person lands, or if there is time and they still have balance, they can complete the original snap kick; very nice now that the opponent's groin is wide open.

 

[Tez3]

My instructors toes are terrible, all bent and broken from years in MA, he does the ball of foot roundhouse very well, to the head too. I spend a lot of time standing, 12 hours sometimes at a time and my feet suffer despite what shoes I wear ( Dr Martens usually) my right big toe especially has gone very stiff, makes it hard to lift for side kick too. Ah the joys of age but I'm still trying! ( yeah I know very trying lol)

I like the block you describe, going to try that, cheers!

 

[jks9199]

Ah yes I remember this one particular time when I was in the Dental Corps , we were given the command to go in and clean the plaque of this poor chaps teeth.

I still remember it like it was yesterday , there were cavities to the left of us , cavities to the right of us and in the midst of it all the rotting stench of halitosis.
The horror ... the horror ...

Now, don't go mocking the dentists in the medical corps. I know a guy who's a reservist, Green Beret... and a dentist by profession. How would YOU like to go to sleep all happy, and wake up having had a root canal? :erg::anic:

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I like the block you describe, going to try that, cheers!

I hope I'm describing it well; as a newbie, I tend to mangle my sensei's instructions, but I do my best. In practice it looks like the person is lifting their knee up and stepping forward; the kick comes in, and they deflect it to the outside and set their own foot down. Now they're inside the legs of the opponent, and boom boom. It's fast, and smooth when my senseis do it. I'm sure you know that 'wax on wax off' arm block that deflects or the down block that deflects instead of bang-blocks - it's like that only with the knee/leg. Tight little crescent and wham.

We do a lot of kicks in my dojo; lately we've been practicing two that are very hard for me; my hips don't open up far enough and I need a lot of work there. We are doing a front snap kick, and then without setting the leg down, a roundhouse or a 'flip kick' in which you pivot on the ball of the grounded foot and open the hips and fire back and up - but with a snap and not a push movement. Wish I could show you; I managed to do one or two semi-correctly, and the impact felt like a ton of bricks on the bag when they hit. The flip-kick is not Isshin-Ryu that I'm aware of, but it's awesome. Saw an old video of a karate champ of yesteryear doing it in the ring in full-contact competition, it looked like he turned to walk away from his opponent and then WHAM he was eating foot.

Sorry to go on and on - we're doing lots of kicks and they're hard for me, but I love the work. I've got monstrous legs, so when I land a good kick, it's game over. I just have to get faster and more dexterous.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Hmm, actually, the only practical use I can think of for the "below the knee, pushing action" described above.... we have a technique called Ashi Dori, or Ashi Dome (Capture the leg/Stop the leg) in which your foot is placed on the ground behind theirs (from the front), and you hook their leg. By pressuring forward, you can create a form of knee-bar. Don't know if you'd class it as a kick, though, we tend to think of it in the grappling skills.

I was about to say, that sounds like prep for a break/takedown such as we used to do in Silat.....

 

[ap Oweyn]

I was going to say that it sounded like it might have been based on (though perhaps not accurately) a kick I noticed in an article on bando. Boar-style bando, to be specific (and potentially inaccurate). But I'm no authority on bando. And the local authority (JKS) has already come and gone. So perhaps I'm mistaken.


Stuart

 

[jks9199]

I was going to say that it sounded like it might have been based on (though perhaps not accurately) a kick I noticed in an article on bando. Boar-style bando, to be specific (and potentially inaccurate). But I'm no authority on bando. And the local authority (JKS) has already come and gone. So perhaps I'm mistaken.


Stuart

It might be a misinterpretation of a Boar or Bull stick kick -- but the striking area on both is still the lower/middle shin, not the upper shin just below the knee. What makes those kicks "different" is the body dynamics involved; they're really whole body slamming kicks. I think someone just plain didn't want to admit that they were wrong...

 

[ap Oweyn]

It might be a misinterpretation of a Boar or Bull stick kick -- but the striking area on both is still the lower/middle shin, not the upper shin just below the knee. What makes those kicks "different" is the body dynamics involved; they're really whole body slamming kicks. I think someone just plain didn't want to admit that they were wrong...

Well, as I say, you're a much better authority than me. I'm just going based on an article in Inside Kung Fu from back in the day.