Weight Training and TKD
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Kwan Jang
Purple Belt
A couple of issues have been brought up besides the question of the OP that I think should be addressed. First, SJON's contention of what bodybuilding is and is not. It's common for people who are marketing some other training method (I don't mean SJON, but rather the people who have hood winked him that he is quoting) to warp the definition of something to detract from it's value.
A good bodybuilding program is mostly compound exercises using free weights. It's only while working around injuries or while "adding the final touches" in the pre-contest phase that most competitive BB's use isolation exercises and machines to any great extent. When properly done, BB includes high intensity work in the high, medium, and low rep ranges to stimulate the myofibrils, mitochodria, and sarcoplasm of the muscle cells. This means greater overall athletic performance than just done by most pure strength athletes. Each major muscle group should be fully developed and in proportion with the others which will generally keep things along the body's natural strength curves which further enhances athletic performance above that used by pure powerlifting or olympic lifting routines. Also a proper BB routine would include high levels of nutrition, plenty of regular cardio work and stretching. The "swelling existing muscle fibers with water" line is laughable.
As far as Rabbit's comment of "if you are powerlifting 500+ pounds of weight you are going to run into some problems", I am wondering what do you mean. I have performed bench presses well over 500 lbs and squats over 800 lbs raw (w/o a lifting suit which can add litteraly hundreds of pounds to your lifts. Most records you see are wearing suits) for reps. I will admit that there has been some wear and tear on my joints after severaql decades of this, but I still have no detrimental effects on my speed or flexibility. I can still do vertical kicks and splits (look on youtube under KJN David Hughes; one of my black belts put up a clip of me doing some of this).
As far as the OP's question about weight training and TKD is concerned; in my experience weight training is a very valuable tool that can enhance your martial arts ability if used properly. I have been a national level competitor in both powerlifting and bodybuilding and did quite well during the time period that there was drug testing in those sports. I have been a state, national and international level competitor in TKD (including some wins) as well as a 6th dan. My use of weight training and bodybuilding has only enhanced my abilities as a martial artist. Technique makes the most efficient use of what you have. It's your physical conditioning that increases what you have to work with.
BTW, I have trained at Crossfit in San Jose, Ca. and my wife is a Level two yoga alliance instructor. Both are good methods that can enhance your performance, but IMO neither are a substitute for the level of overall benefits that a well planned and executed bodybuilding routine will give you to enhance your performance. This last part is purely my opinion and experience though.
A good bodybuilding program is mostly compound exercises using free weights. It's only while working around injuries or while "adding the final touches" in the pre-contest phase that most competitive BB's use isolation exercises and machines to any great extent. When properly done, BB includes high intensity work in the high, medium, and low rep ranges to stimulate the myofibrils, mitochodria, and sarcoplasm of the muscle cells. This means greater overall athletic performance than just done by most pure strength athletes. Each major muscle group should be fully developed and in proportion with the others which will generally keep things along the body's natural strength curves which further enhances athletic performance above that used by pure powerlifting or olympic lifting routines. Also a proper BB routine would include high levels of nutrition, plenty of regular cardio work and stretching. The "swelling existing muscle fibers with water" line is laughable.
As far as Rabbit's comment of "if you are powerlifting 500+ pounds of weight you are going to run into some problems", I am wondering what do you mean. I have performed bench presses well over 500 lbs and squats over 800 lbs raw (w/o a lifting suit which can add litteraly hundreds of pounds to your lifts. Most records you see are wearing suits) for reps. I will admit that there has been some wear and tear on my joints after severaql decades of this, but I still have no detrimental effects on my speed or flexibility. I can still do vertical kicks and splits (look on youtube under KJN David Hughes; one of my black belts put up a clip of me doing some of this).
As far as the OP's question about weight training and TKD is concerned; in my experience weight training is a very valuable tool that can enhance your martial arts ability if used properly. I have been a national level competitor in both powerlifting and bodybuilding and did quite well during the time period that there was drug testing in those sports. I have been a state, national and international level competitor in TKD (including some wins) as well as a 6th dan. My use of weight training and bodybuilding has only enhanced my abilities as a martial artist. Technique makes the most efficient use of what you have. It's your physical conditioning that increases what you have to work with.
BTW, I have trained at Crossfit in San Jose, Ca. and my wife is a Level two yoga alliance instructor. Both are good methods that can enhance your performance, but IMO neither are a substitute for the level of overall benefits that a well planned and executed bodybuilding routine will give you to enhance your performance. This last part is purely my opinion and experience though.
I also recall reading a study a year or so ago that basically stated that HGH doesn't result in any strength increase. It just makes the muscles look more defined while essentially doing nothing except making you more prone to injury.
I freely admit that most of my notions on the subject come from Rippetoe/Kilgore. Limited, perhaps, but the results for me have been far more satisfactory than any program I've ever been given at a gym.
So, given that we're talking about the suitability of lifting heavy bits of iron as a complement to MA training, which is it to be? What is your definition of the difference between weight training and body building? Whose physique and attributes are better suited to MA and overall sports performance: that of, say, an Olympic lifter, or that of the archetypal body builder? Do you deny that the primary objective of body building is an aesthetic one?
Kwan Jang
Purple Belt
Olympic lifting is basically a competition of who can perform overhead lifts. These are good, whole body exercises, but do not develop each major muscle group to it's fullest potential. It doesn't develop strength from different angles and ranges of motion or the muscular endurance that BB does. Some of the olympic lifts should be a part of a good BB routine, but the recent emphasis on olympic lifting is a fad to market something "new" as an exercise program. Those of us who haver been around strength sport circles have seen this marketing come around in cycles, just as a few years ago the low carb diet resurfaced as the "Atkin's diet" in nutrition circles. Those who had seen the low carb diets the last time they came around already knew their pros and cons and that the fad would not last. The same is pretty much true of olympic lifting.
As far as bodybuilding is concerned, in physique competition aesthetics is a primary objective and that is one reason that it has evolved into a far superior tool for athletics (there's a paradox for you). The truth is that in bodybuilding, to develop that aesthetic physique and fully develop each muscle, you must train the muscles in proper proportion along the natural strength curve of the body. You must develop strength along the full range of motion and at most angles as well as high levels of strength in the low, medium and high rep ranges. In both olympic and powerlifting, many muscle groups and many rep ranges are under developed which can impair athletic performance and also lead to strength imbalances that can lead to injuries. In BB there are far fewer "weak links in the chain".
I do not endorse (or condone) the current state of chemical BB that is popular on stage today. I am talking about drug free BB as a training method rather than people using anabolics, GH and diuretics to achieve 3% (or less) bodyfat to walk out on stage (and feeling like zombies while they do). As a training method, I feel it is far superior to PL and OL for performance as an athlete, especially a martial artist. It requires a high level of nutrition, cardio and stretching as part of the routine that is not required (and often not even encouraged) in either PL or OL. Olympic lifting has some value for those who don't have the time or energy to put into a full BB routine. This is one of it's major "pros", the con is that it will not give the overall results and benefits that taking a more indepth BB approach would.
As far as bodybuilding is concerned, in physique competition aesthetics is a primary objective and that is one reason that it has evolved into a far superior tool for athletics (there's a paradox for you). The truth is that in bodybuilding, to develop that aesthetic physique and fully develop each muscle, you must train the muscles in proper proportion along the natural strength curve of the body. You must develop strength along the full range of motion and at most angles as well as high levels of strength in the low, medium and high rep ranges. In both olympic and powerlifting, many muscle groups and many rep ranges are under developed which can impair athletic performance and also lead to strength imbalances that can lead to injuries. In BB there are far fewer "weak links in the chain".
I do not endorse (or condone) the current state of chemical BB that is popular on stage today. I am talking about drug free BB as a training method rather than people using anabolics, GH and diuretics to achieve 3% (or less) bodyfat to walk out on stage (and feeling like zombies while they do). As a training method, I feel it is far superior to PL and OL for performance as an athlete, especially a martial artist. It requires a high level of nutrition, cardio and stretching as part of the routine that is not required (and often not even encouraged) in either PL or OL. Olympic lifting has some value for those who don't have the time or energy to put into a full BB routine. This is one of it's major "pros", the con is that it will not give the overall results and benefits that taking a more indepth BB approach would.
Hi KJ.
Well, that's very interesting, and I certainly take it on board. It's the first time I've heard that point of view, to be honest.
My own routine (which is neither OL or PL, but a general strength program as one part of my training) consists of full low bar back squats, deadlifts, power cleans, overhead presses and some bodyweight stuff. I've found it very positive for strength, power and flexibility. Among other things, it has cleared up some TKD-induced knee problems for me, and stabilised my shoulders quite a bit.
I'm not convinced by the idea of training specific muscle groups rather than doing whole body lifts, but I believe I understand where you're coming from.
Cheers,
Simon
Well, that's very interesting, and I certainly take it on board. It's the first time I've heard that point of view, to be honest.
My own routine (which is neither OL or PL, but a general strength program as one part of my training) consists of full low bar back squats, deadlifts, power cleans, overhead presses and some bodyweight stuff. I've found it very positive for strength, power and flexibility. Among other things, it has cleared up some TKD-induced knee problems for me, and stabilised my shoulders quite a bit.
I'm not convinced by the idea of training specific muscle groups rather than doing whole body lifts, but I believe I understand where you're coming from.
Cheers,
Simon
Kwan Jang
Purple Belt
It's all good. I do want to clarify something though. A good bodybuilding routine is going to be mostly basic, compound exercises. The use of isolation exercises is usually done to shore up a weak area, work around an injury or final prep before competition. Off season training (which is the primary training phase throughout the year) is usually heavy lifts based on many of the lifts you listed, though there are others included as well. In powerlifting and olympic lifting these are usually called "assistance exercises" and often are performed, but usually at a much lower priority than the main lifts used for competition. This actually leads to bodybuilders being better athletes in general because they don't leave the "weak links in the chain".
Another important factor is that BB's will train their muscles to failure in different rep ranges to stimulate the different components of a muscle cell. An example of the results of this was a public squat contest between Dr. Fred Hafield (first man to squat 1,000 lbs) and Tom Platz (most developed legs in BB). This was after both had retired and a bit past their competitive prime. Fred outdid Tom on the single rep max when Tom failed (iirc) somewhere in the mid-800's (Fred didn't bother to take it any further). They also had a contest on who could squat 600 lbs for the most reps. Fred got (iirc) 10 reps and Tom got 33. When he was still active in competition, it was not uncommon for Tom to squat 225 lbs. for ten minutes straight, just up and down like a piston. BTW, Tom can easily do both front and side splits as well.
I've personally done 805 for low reps and 500 for sets of 20 many, many times. I used knee wraps and a lifting belt, but no suit. I could probably squat well over 900 if I had a thicker structure through my waist and hips. My small hips and narrow waist is a bit of a genetic structural limit on how much my core can support. This is not to make excuses, but to say that the reason that while many BB's are world class in strength, the very genetic structure that favors them in their sport can hurt them a bit in competitive lifting or strongman contests. It's not a flaw in their training, but rather a structural flaw genetically that your training can't do much about.
Another important factor is that BB's will train their muscles to failure in different rep ranges to stimulate the different components of a muscle cell. An example of the results of this was a public squat contest between Dr. Fred Hafield (first man to squat 1,000 lbs) and Tom Platz (most developed legs in BB). This was after both had retired and a bit past their competitive prime. Fred outdid Tom on the single rep max when Tom failed (iirc) somewhere in the mid-800's (Fred didn't bother to take it any further). They also had a contest on who could squat 600 lbs for the most reps. Fred got (iirc) 10 reps and Tom got 33. When he was still active in competition, it was not uncommon for Tom to squat 225 lbs. for ten minutes straight, just up and down like a piston. BTW, Tom can easily do both front and side splits as well.
I've personally done 805 for low reps and 500 for sets of 20 many, many times. I used knee wraps and a lifting belt, but no suit. I could probably squat well over 900 if I had a thicker structure through my waist and hips. My small hips and narrow waist is a bit of a genetic structural limit on how much my core can support. This is not to make excuses, but to say that the reason that while many BB's are world class in strength, the very genetic structure that favors them in their sport can hurt them a bit in competitive lifting or strongman contests. It's not a flaw in their training, but rather a structural flaw genetically that your training can't do much about.
I tried to lift wieghts but that dam dinner table got in the way too much.
garrisons2
Orange Belt
I don't do upper body on the weights , but once or twice a week I do a legs, light weight/high rep(25) lunges, hamstring and quads, 2 sets each. 30 min max. I find that especially towards the end of the workout, especially then it is forms that my stances, particularly horse are solid. The other improvement is that my paddle work is stronger, without comprimising speed. I started doing this a few months ago, figuring that with a torn ACL I needed more leg strength to compensate. It helps my muscle stability.
