Weight Training and Chi-Sau

[geezer]

My old Chinese sifu used to caution us against doing weight lifting. He was adamant that weight training created a heavy, insensitive quality of muscle that was incompatible with the kind of sensitivity we train for in chi sau.

Now many years later, I have returned to using weights to gain back some of my youthful strength. Twenty or thirty years ago, if I lifted, I gained strength and bulk very quickly. Now, I struggle to make minimal gains, and haven't put on much bulk. Still, my current instructor has noticed that my arms have a heavier, clumsy, or less responsive quality. Like my previous sifu, he insists that if I want to reach a higher level of skill that the weights must go. But on the other hand, I'm in my mid fifties, and I really don't want to lose my hard earned gains... I may never be able to get them back!

So, should I dump the weights, and just work with the long pole and knives, bag hitting and chi-sau for fitness, or does weight training have its place for a 'chunner? Any thoughts?

 

[dungeonworks]

Geezer, I hate weights! I used to like them until I started kickboxing. They kept me too tight all the time and limited my range of motion. My Sensei suggested just doing bodyweight exercises for two reasons:

You gain strength and flexibility with them.

Convenience. You can do them anywhere at anytime.


My usual solo workout is stretching, then run 2 or more miles (...or 15-30 jump rope at 40 jumps per minute) followed by one 15 minute round on the heavy bag. Then, while still warm, I will knock out some combos on the bag working technique then do flurry drills. Then I go to my cals. Push ups, leg lifts, crunches, bodyweight squats, knee raises...ect. I am more into functional strength and flexibility than I am in looking like a body builder.

Bottom line, I just never felt "well" all over when I was into weights....but that is just me. Bodyweight exercise is the way for me.

 

[coffeerox]

I'm not sure which Sifu I read this from, I think Duncan Leung was talking about how you train the stretchiness of your muscle instead of the common weight training where it bulks up muscle and adds mass. I'm sorry it's been so vague but I don't know the technical details

 

[Ken Morgan]

There should be no reason why you have to choose between one or the other. I don’t train your MA, but my experience is that you can “bulk” up and still have great speed and flexibility. No offense but if the gains are coming hard, you can’t have gotten so big that the mass gets in the way!! To me if you keep weight training, increase your cardio, increase your flexibility training and you MA training. There are many big guys who train in all MA without mass getting in the way.

 

[chinaboxer]

My old Chinese sifu used to caution us against doing weight lifting. He was adamant that weight training created a heavy, insensitive quality of muscle that was incompatible with the kind of sensitivity we train for in chi sau.

Now many years later, I have returned to using weights to gain back some of my youthful strength. Twenty or thirty years ago, if I lifted, I gained strength and bulk very quickly. Now, I struggle to make minimal gains, and haven't put on much bulk. Still, my current instructor has noticed that my arms have a heavier, clumsy, or less responsive quality. Like my previous sifu, he insists that if I want to reach a higher level of skill that the weights must go. But on the other hand, I'm in my mid fifties, and I really don't want to lose my hard earned gains... I may never be able to get them back!

So, should I dump the weights, and just work with the long pole and knives, bag hitting and chi-sau for fitness, or does weight training have its place for a 'chunner? Any thoughts?

i've been weight training for fifteen years, so i'll share with you my thoughts on the subject.

first, weight training done correctly does not hinder anything, full range of motion exercises with resistance helps not only flexibility but also teaches the body to recruit other muscles for assistance. obviously, we are not trying to become bodybuilders but progressive resistance is always beneficial to your skeletal system, blood flow etc...

second, have a plan, focus on "compound" exercises such as deadlift, squat, etc...instead of "single joint" exercises such bicept curl, extensions etc...this teaches the body to work as one unit, and how is that ever a bad thing especially for wing chunners. also make the exercises relevant to enhancing your martial arts, such as "core" development. for instance, in the intro to the squat video i did, you can see some examples of specific exercises that i incorporate. http://www.thechinaboxer.com/2009/10/16/power-of-the-squat/

third, stretch before, during and after workouts. this will help to increase blood and nutrient flow into the muscle fibers and encourage muscle growth. also, make sure to schedule your workouts around your martial arts classes. that means you need between 2-3 days rest after your weight training to recover or else you will not be able to relax during wing chun practice.

don't go believing all that nonsense about how quality muscle and weight training will hinder your martial arts. quality muscle doesn't slow you down, tense muscle slows you down.

take care and peace!

Jin

 

[yak sao]

If you were a beginner, then I would tend to agree that weight training could tend to hinder your WT as it would be hard to give up your force.
As already stated by chinaboxer, perform compound exercises that use major muscle groups. Stay away from isolation exercises. KK and the EWTO use this approach.

Like dungeonworks, I tend to do more body weight exercises like pullups and pushups. But I also venture into dumbell weight training as a supplement. Also, I have a TotalGym....those things are fantastic. They have several variations, mine only cost a couple hundred when I got it several years ago. It helps with flexibility and shoulder strength / stabilization tremendously. (BTW Chuck Norris is not paying me for this endorsement)

Like you, I am getting a little long in the tooth , and as an overall fitness approach, strength training needs to be a part of what we do to help us maintain muscle mass as we age. So even "if" weights were detrimental to WT, the overall benefits would still outweigh the negatives.

And one last point. Emin said to me when I was around a 12th SG, that at my point in training, I had enough of an understanding of chi sao that weights would not be a problem, he said just keep doing chi sao. And Leung Ting was sitting right there with us and nodded in agreement.

 

[geezer]

First, to Chinaboxer, Jin--I was hoping you'd weigh in on this, since judging from your appearance, I guessed that you used weights... but judiciously since you aren't over-bulked. And as a serious 'chunner, I know you wouldn't do anything that interfered with your WC skills. So thanks again for the input.

And Yak, you must be a more flexible build than me. When I trained with LT, he used to really chide me for lifting... even though I didn't lift! And he thought it was riotously funny that my name, Steve in his accent came out sounding like "steef", identical to the way he said "stiff". He'd sit back and laugh "Steef is soooo steef! Ha ha ha." OK, I didn't think it was very funny either. Chinese humor. Funny gwai-lo.

BTW my training partner roomed with Emin for a bit back in the early 90's. He said that Emin didn't lift then. And he was really ripped back then. He said Emin attributed his physique to genetics and hard training. I wonder, does he lift now that he's older? And how about Michael Casey? I met him a couple of years back and he's in incredible condition too.

 

[mook jong man]

We also used to get told by our master not to lift weights or you will lose your forward force ( springy force ) and it will slow you down.
I believe that to be true to a certain extent , that is if you are lifting massively heavy weights in low rep ranges.

I remember there was a short period of time years ago where I was hitting the weights hard and lifting very heavy and also training in Wing Chun and I just felt very crappy and slow. I was too bulked up and sore from the weight training to do justice to my Wing Chun training , when I stopped the weights it was like taking a brake off and I had speed and endurance back again.

But I have found in my experience that if I keep the range of reps at about 12 with moderate weights then it doesn't hinder my speed or anything else.
The other guys mentioned body weight exercises and pull ups etc , I'm a big fan of those , also kettlebell and the heavy bag.

I haven't noticed any adverse affects from that stuff on Wing Chun performance.
It could also come down to your individual body type as well , being a rather short chunky type of fellow if I start hitting the weights hard then I start to acquire bulk pretty easily and feel that my speed starts to be compromised.

But a tallish slender type of person maybe able to handle a a heavy weight training regimen with out any ill effects on their Wing Chun because they would find it harder to put on any unnecessary bulk.
I don't know , all that I know is that it was bad for me.

 

[yak sao]

]

And Yak, you must be a more flexible build than me.

First of all...guilty, I'm 6'1" and 185#, so I'm pretty flexible and weights don't tend to bulk me up, so Emin was most likely giving me specific advice: good point.

BTW my training partner roomed with Emin for a bit back in the early 90's. He said that Emin didn't lift then. And he was really ripped back then. He said Emin attributed his physique to genetics and hard training. I wonder, does he lift now that he's older?

In KK's book On Single Combat, there are pictures of Emin from the early days performing various weight training exercises, but they were all major muscle group stuff. Maybe he got to a point with them and maintained with his WT training?

And how about Michael Casey? I met him a couple of years back and he's in incredible condition too.[/qu

Michael Casey is in fantastic shape (and one of the nicest people I've met, WT or otherwise, BTW). I first met him in LA back in '98 and he was in good shape, but you would in no way call him muscular. In fact, he saw an old picture of the two of us together from back then and he lamented how skinny he was. I last saw him around 2004 and he looked then the way he looks now. I believe he said he performed barbell squats and deadlifts almost exclusively.

 

[Nabakatsu]

I just had a seminar with Micheal Casey a few months back, and while I haven't seen him prior to this he was pretty ripped from head to toe. I must agree he's a very likable good guy.

 

[Domino]

A friend strengthens his wrists with smaller weight dum bells.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Weight training has it's place. But, you need to lift with the intent of building the explosiveness of the muscle, and compliment weight training with butterfly knife and pole training.

 

[yak sao]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTsqszpxChg&feature=related

Some good ideas for strength training with WT/WC in mind. Could probably substitute dumbells and get decent results as well.

 

[l_uk3y]

Weight Training done incorrectly will promote Stiffness, Less Flexibility and Injury.

Done correctly and planned for a specific goal will improve strength throughout the full range of motion, you should stretch between sets and if you lose flexibility you are doing something wrong as well as once your body develops a bit you can start training more demanding methods to tailor it to improving your speed/strength for your MA's.

I got my Personal Training qualification a few years back, never ended up doing it as a job but for my own benefit its been good. I think the real thing most people miss is just because your lifting weights doesn't mean you are training to develop a physique like a bodybuilder or massive general size like a power lifter.

If you can make a decent list of top level sports in the world that require a high level of fitness that doesn't involve some form of Strength development/ Weight training then your doing a good job. At the elite level almost every form of sport will have some form of strength development.

Cheers. Luke

 

[geezer]

If you can make a decent list of top level sports in the world that require a high level of fitness that doesn't involve some form of Strength development/ Weight training then your doing a good job.

A list of sports that don't benefit from weight training:

1. Chess
2. Miniature golf
3. Competitive eating
4. WOW (and its like)
5. WC... According to my old instructor...

Now, if you consider the company this list puts me in, you'll see why I'm still doing supplementary strength training. But I'm re-thinking what and how to proceed. For example, more bodyweight ex., more work with the long pole, etc.? and a lot more arm and shoulder stretching. My stiff -joints are really more of a problem than bulk. What bulk? I wish!

 

[mook jong man]

My old Chinese sifu used to caution us against doing weight lifting. He was adamant that weight training created a heavy, insensitive quality of muscle that was incompatible with the kind of sensitivity we train for in chi sau.

Now many years later, I have returned to using weights to gain back some of my youthful strength. Twenty or thirty years ago, if I lifted, I gained strength and bulk very quickly. Now, I struggle to make minimal gains, and haven't put on much bulk. Still, my current instructor has noticed that my arms have a heavier, clumsy, or less responsive quality. Like my previous sifu, he insists that if I want to reach a higher level of skill that the weights must go. But on the other hand, I'm in my mid fifties, and I really don't want to lose my hard earned gains... I may never be able to get them back!

So, should I dump the weights, and just work with the long pole and knives, bag hitting and chi-sau for fitness, or does weight training have its place for a 'chunner? Any thoughts?

Geezer mate , have you tried swimming ?
It probably won't do all that much for your strength , but it would be good for your general fitness.

I remember they always used to ask Tsui Seung Tin what was the best exercise for Wing Chun .

Inevitably the answer would be more Sil Lim Tao , but when pressed he would say swimming , apparently he used to do a bit of swimming as supplementary training.

He also is reputed to have said that he can maintain his stance while swimming , obviously not so much in a physical sense , but more along the lines of internal muscle control and the mental aspect of the stance.

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

Good weight training, specially explosive movements like Olympic lifts and its component lifts, pull ups and such could compliment and be used as auxiliary training for Wing Chun. 2 or 3 times a week is enough.

I find it more useful than training the weapons for overall strength and power. Although the weapon sets are good exercises, in my opinion, combat drills would make them functional tools of mayhem. As done on the forms, specially the knives, as taught, really are doing a disservice to your training, specially without some footwork+upper platform movement corrections.

The pole, well, its a heavy thing and you have to move it... it will make you stronger! Specially controlling it with explosiveness.

A weighted vest is also very good. Doing movement drills with this vest on gives you a new dimension of footwork explosiveness.

There is a lot more on this.

Juan Mercado-Robles

 

[geezer]

As done on the forms, specially the knives, as taught, really are doing a disservice to your training, specially without some footwork+upper platform movement corrections.

Could you elaborate a bit on this point? The Bart Cham Dao forms vary tremendously depending on who teaches them. I convinced that a lot of the versions shown have just been made up. But, be that as it may, how is practicing this set doing a disservice to one's overall training?

 

[profesormental]

First, time being spent on things that take more time to develop. With weapons, you can become deadly very fast, specially with bladed ones.

It takes much more time to become skilled in empty hand control manipulations so that it is YOU who decided the level of control and damage inflicted while minimizing your risk of being harmed. The Ultimate Martial Goal.

Also, in Criminal Statistics, knife fights are on the nil part of the scale. Many times knives are pulled it is for defensive purposes. Knife attacks are surprise murder attempts for the most part, so knife on knife, specially 2 knives on one side, nil.

I recognize that in the UK it may be different, please advise.

As you said, in general, most BCD forms seem made up. I follow the ones that are consistent with those taught by Ip Chun.

Many people doing the movements show that they don't know about the mechanics of cutting someone up, and that the knives are not machetes.

Other times, the footwork used destroys stability and mobility, specially while moving back and moving the body before the blade or any kind of mechanism is put to action to prevent one from being stabbed, hit, etc.

I am considering integrating into the weapon forms mechanisms to make it a worthwhile form, yet it takes a while, and there is a possibility that it cannot be saved in present form.

With the 3 forms, I've had no trouble in emphasizing the correcting and optimizing mechanisms, since for some strange reason, seem to be there in a subtle fashion. Unfortunately, if you don't know them, as I didn't, you cannot get the maximum benefits. You get something, yet I've noticed my skills have improved vastly and my performance is so much better!

Yet no matter how good you are, you can ALWAYS grow and improve your performance!

Eternal Springtime, baby! That's some Wing Chun for ya!

Last month I found a very, VERY advanced training method in Bil Jee, that requires you to have trained YEARS before reaping the benefits. It has to do with shortening movements even more while keeping the structure and power. You would believe it only if I showed you!

If you're lucky enough to be taught and practicing a form that has all the benefits you want, I'm happy with that! In my opinion I wasn't.

There are movements that have good mechanics, yet you can practice them in empty hand form, against live humans to learn practical skills better.

There is more, but gotta go to give today's class!

Thanks for the posts! Good discussion!!

Juan Mercado-Robles
Mercado Martial Academy
Academia de Artes Marciales de Carolina

Eternal Springtime, baby!!

 

[hunt1]

Best weight training for wing chun is Kettlebells if you do them correctly. They will greatly improve your wing chun while building strength. if you don't do them correctly though they can mess you up.


If you are referring to Yip Man's knife form. The problem is more in how,who,when and what Yip taught than in forms being made up although that has happened as well.

Yip Chun form has been changed at least twice once by his father and once by him. Yip Chun had trouble getting some sections so his father changed the sections for him. he then changed some sections because he thought the changes looked better.

The knife man was Yip Bo Ching and he alone learned all 12 sections . After he died suddenly Yip taught the 12 section to WSL this was in 1971 when Yip was already very sick. He had taught WSL a different form much earlier. WSL was supposed to teach the Yip Brothers but he didn't. WSL taught the 12 section form to his brothers and to only 2 or 3 of his students. He usually taught the original form Yip Man taught him. His 12 sections are a little different than Yip Bo Ching's but the content is the same. Yip Man taught YBC the 12 section around 1956/57. The form is very long and if taught with correct body usage strenuous as well which explains the differences along with memory issues.

Others got forms that had 8 or less sections depending upon when they were taught and how much they were paying. Moy Yat learned with chopsticks. TST learned 4 section form in 1965/66. Leung Sheung learned 4 or 5 sections. Lok Yiu learned from Leung Sheung. Many learned all or most from WSL. Several private students learned an 8 section form like Ho Kam Ming. Some learned the reverse grip moves and some did not. Yip rarely taught usage most just got base sections. Some got alll the footwork some got just basic footwork.

Take all these variations and add in the desire of many to 'complete' the form and you get personal additions to the form. I won't say made up since Yip Man made up several versions of the form himself. He also made up the name Batt Chum Doa