Value of the combat cane

Mephisto

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I'm curious what opinions are about the utility of the cane (we're talking walking tool here, not in a filipino martial arts sense where a baston is sometimes called a cane). It seems like some systems get really deep into the combat cane stuff and it seems pretty cool. My criticism is that it's only practical for a person who would normally be carrying a cane, I.e. An aging person or someone with a disability. I think an able bodied person wielding a cane can draw unnessessary attention and if you should ever use that cane in an altercation you'd better be damn sure it's an open and shut case of self defense, which is rarely the case.

Benefits of carrying a cane are that you can legally carry them anywhere. A business is not likely to tell you not to use a cane even if you appear able bodied for fear of lawsuits. That isn't really my concern. What I'm concerned about is after you actually use a cane and end up in court. If you're able bodied you'll probably have to justify why you had a cane to begin with, this may not be a crime but I think it can hurt your defense. Some might make the "better tried by 12 thsn carried by 6" argument. Personally I hate that cliche, in limited contexts it makes sense but it's not justification for ignorance of the law. Also, I have LEO friends who advise against seemingly innocuous "tactical" weapons like flashlights and pens. Law enforcement still recognizes that these items are weapons and while they aren't illegal they can cause a cop to be suspicious of your intentions.

So to recap, I like the combat cane stuff I've seen. It makes sense for me to train and learn it now so that I may use it one day when It is more socially appropriate for me to carry a cane. But I'm not sure it's the best idea for an able bodied person to walk around with a cane. What do you guys think? I'm only raising the issue because I've seen a few combat cane guys promoting it lately.
 

Chrisoro

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Learning how to use a cane for combat doesn織t limit you to only use what you learn with canes. The techniques you learn with a cane, can easily be transfered to other similar objects, such as an umbrella, and for the majority of the techniques, even objects without the crooked handke, such as pool cues, shorter (or broken in half) broom handles, etc.

In general, a cane is a very non-alarming object, which no one would pay much attention to if you had it, say, in your entry hall next to the door, in the back of your car, etc. so it is an object you can keep close to you in many different locales, even if you don織t walk around with it as a walking aid. And, as I mentioned above, if you get an umbrella, preferably a quality one such as the Unbreakable Umbrella, you can even bring it on a plane with you. The ones with a crooked handle, will essentially let you do all of the cane techniques you learn in the dojang/dojo, while drawing no attention to yourself, unless you live in the middle of a desert or something.
 
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mber

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Carrying a cane might make sense in certain situations. I knew an elderly gentleman who carried a cane for defense though he didn't need one for walking; he was fit for his age. Fortunately, he never needed it. While I wonder how much difference it would have made were he assaulted, it would almost certainly have been better than confronting an attack empty-handed, and for someone his age, it was an innocuous item to carry.

While I agree with Chrisoro that such training can be applied to many things, and this general ability can only be helpful, I would say that in many situations, "in for a penny, in for a pound" applies, and if you're going to be carrying an item that can be viewed as a weapon in case of a fight, you might as well carry an actual weapon. I can see arguments for or against this, but that is my perception.
 
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Mephisto

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Learning how to use a cane for combat doesn織t limit you to only use what you learn with canes. The techniques you learn with a cane, can easily be transfered to other similar objects, such as an umbrella, and for the majority of the techniques, even objects without the crooked handke, such as pool cues, shorter (or broken in half) broom handles, etc.

In general, a cane is a very non-alarming object, which no one would pay much attention to if you had it, say, in your entry hall next to the door, in the back of your car, etc. so it is an object you can keep close to you in many different locales, even if you don織t walk around with it as a walking aid. And, as I mentioned above, if you get an umbrella, preferably a quality one such as the Unbreakable Umbrella, you can even bring it on a plane with you. The ones with a crooked handle, will essentially let you do all of the cane techniques you learn in the dojang/dojo, while drawing no attention to yourself, unless you live in the middle of a desert or something.
Good points, I can see the value of a cane representing an improvised weapon, much like the stick is in Filipino arts. Outside of that I'm still not sure. At home, I'd rather use a gun. In the car, you'll still possibly have to explain why the cane was there if you use it. It's like riding around with an ax handle or baseball bat, albiet you might have better luck explaining a cane. The unbreakable umbrella is pretty cool, but the fact that there's a guy smashing watermelons with it in the commercial puts it in the same category as tactical flashlights and pens, technically it still might be viewed as a weapon. Of course it doesn't really matter if you use legally justifiable levels of force, but my concern comes from some of the court cases we've seen where a good guy is made out as a villain or a bad guy walks free on a technicality.
 
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Mephisto

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Carrying a cane might make sense in certain situations. I knew an elderly gentleman who carried a cane for defense though he didn't need one for walking; he was fit for his age. Fortunately, he never needed it. While I wonder how much difference it would have made were he assaulted, it would almost certainly have been better than confronting an attack empty-handed, and for someone his age, it was an innocuous item to carry.

While I agree with Chrisoro that such training can be applied to many things, and this general ability can only be helpful, I would say that in many situations, "in for a penny, in for a pound" applies, and if you're going to be carrying an item that can be viewed as a weapon in case of a fight, you might as well carry an actual weapon. I can see arguments for or against this, but that is my perception.
I agree with you here. For an able bodied old guy, where your less able peers may be using canes, I think there's merit to carrying/using a cane for self defense. Aside from that the cane can be representative of any improvised/found weapon of opportunity. But a young able bodied person carrying one? I think it's not such a good idea. I agree with the above post, If you're carrying an object that might be viewed as a weapon, you may as well carry a proper weapon (gun is the obvious answer here).

Edit: clumsy fingers+phone=posting before I was done typing. Finished now :)
 

Chrisoro

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Good points, I can see the value of a cane representing an improvised weapon, much like the stick is in Filipino arts. Outside of that I'm still not sure. At home, I'd rather use a gun. In the car, you'll still possibly have to explain why the cane was there if you use it.

"You see, officer, sometimes my knee starts hurting, probably as a result of many years of martial arts training. Generally, it doesn織t give me much problems, but having a cane available in the car helps handling these situations the few times it does."

Good luck for them to disprove this.

It's like riding around with an ax handle or baseball bat, albiet you might have better luck explaining a cane. The unbreakable umbrella is pretty cool, but the fact that there's a guy smashing watermelons with it in the commercial puts it in the same category as tactical flashlights and pens, technically it still might be viewed as a weapon.
Yes, but you can still say that you bought it simply because you were tired of crappy umbrellas breaking all the time, something everyone in the courtroom would be familiar with in either case. And unlike most tactical pens or flashlights which have a tactical look or "features" such as pointy ends, the unbreakable umbrella is technically nothing but a really strong umbrella. It would be much harder to prove ill intent in carrying a strong umbrella that essentially looks like any other umbrella, than for carrying a "pen" that resembles a weapon more than a pen. And nothing stopps you from just using another brand of quality umbrella anyway, even though it would probably have to be replaced should you use it as a weapon.
 

Chrisoro

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I agree with the above post, If you're carrying an object that might be viewed as a weapon, you may as well carry a proper weapon (gun is the obvious answer here).

In those states in the US that permits it, sure, carry a gun, but I can promise you that in most(all?) of Europe, carrying anything designed primarily as a weapon (that is, something that it is hard to argue another benign primary use) will get you into a legal **** storm just from carrying it. A cane, however, has another primary use. And as someone who have had surgery in both my knees, I would like to see the lawyer who wants to try to "prove" that my primary reason for having a cane in the car was as a weapon. I can supply my medical journal any day.
 
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Mephisto

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In those states in the US that permits it, sure, carry a gun, but I can promise you that in most(all?) of Europe, carrying anything designed primarily as a weapon (that is, something that it is hard to argue another benign primary use) will get you into a legal **** storm just from carrying it. A cane, however, has another primary use. And as someone who have had surgery in both my knees, I would like to see the lawyer who wants to try to "prove" that my primary reason for having a cane in the car was as a weapon. I can supply my medical journal any day.
Fair enough, I'm coming from a frame of reference from someone in the U.S. Still, you can't carry a gun everywhere over here. Or a knife for that matter. I can understand that with knee surgeries you could justify carrying a cane. You as an individual are clearly not the person I'm referring to in this thread. I talking about a healthy young man walking around with a cane, or perhaps even driving with one in his car. Im 31, if something goes down and I crack a guy over the head with a cane I might just have some explaining to do.

I have a friend the same age who walks with a cane, he lifts weights, but he's had a spinal injury and is unable to walk without the cane. He's used his cane to hit a guy over the head too, the whole thing was witnessed outside of ac area known for drinking and clubs and he didn't get arrested after some initial questioning. Now if I bashed a guy over the head with a cane I had, I doubt things would have gone the same way.
 

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Fair enough, I'm coming from a frame of reference from someone in the U.S. Still, you can't carry a gun everywhere over here. Or a knife for that matter. I can understand that with knee surgeries you could justify carrying a cane. You as an individual are clearly not the person I'm referring to in this thread. I talking about a healthy young man walking around with a cane, or perhaps even driving with one in his car. Im 31, if something goes down and I crack a guy over the head with a cane I might just have some explaining to do.

I have a friend the same age who walks with a cane, he lifts weights, but he's had a spinal injury and is unable to walk without the cane. He's used his cane to hit a guy over the head too, the whole thing was witnessed outside of ac area known for drinking and clubs and he didn't get arrested after some initial questioning. Now if I bashed a guy over the head with a cane I had, I doubt things would have gone the same way.

Why? Just tell them you have a trick knee and sometimes need a cane to help out.
 
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Mephisto

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Why? Just tell them you have a trick knee and sometimes need a cane to help out.
A cop might buy it, a courtroom probably not. Carrying a cane isn't the problem, it's what could happen if you're forced to use it.
 

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A cop might buy it, a courtroom probably not. Carrying a cane isn't the problem, it's what could happen if you're forced to use it.

Really?
1 - If the cop buys it, you're not going to end up in a courtroom.
2 - If you're in a courtroom in the US, the other side has to prove that you do NOT have a trick knee - which is impossible. You don't have to prove anything.
 
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Mephisto

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Really?
1 - If the cop buys it, you're not going to end up in a courtroom.
2 - If you're in a courtroom in the US, the other side has to prove that you do NOT have a trick knee - which is impossible. You don't have to prove anything.
1-a cop can ask you why you're riding with a cane in your passenger seat or carrying one and you can give the "trick knee" excuse and go on your way.

But in the context of an altercation, if you've just bashed a guy over the head with a cane and you appear to be in good health you are going to raise suspicions. The cop can arrest you or the other guy could press charges, either you end up in court.
2- "Trick knee" isn't a medical diagnosis, if the other side wants to paint you as a hoodlum/paranoid vigilante/trouble maker you may have to present a legitimate medical reason to have a cane. A previous documented injury might just be enough, but in the case you haven't had such an injury what can you say? I'm just saying it's something to consider.
 

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1-a cop can ask you why you're riding with a cane in your passenger seat or carrying one and you can give the "trick knee" excuse and go on your way.

But in the context of an altercation, if you've just bashed a guy over the head with a cane and you appear to be in good health you are going to raise suspicions. The cop can arrest you or the other guy could press charges, either you end up in court.
2- "Trick knee" isn't a medical diagnosis, if the other side wants to paint you as a hoodlum/paranoid vigilante/trouble maker you may have to present a legitimate medical reason to have a cane. A previous documented injury might just be enough, but in the case you haven't had such an injury what can you say? I'm just saying it's something to consider.

There is no law requiring you to seek medical care for anything. So you've got a knee that bugs you off and on, and a cane helps when it does. The other guy would have to prove that this is untrue, and that just isn't possible.
 

geezer

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Personally I like the unbreakable umbrella for several reasons. First because it's not advertised as a "tactical" or "self defense" umbrella. Even the video can be seen as showing off it's durability rather than it's vicious, weapon-like qualities.

Unfortunately I live in Arizona and carrying an umbrella is considered an oddity here. You are much better off carrying a gun and several knives, openly or concealed. No permit is necessary. But an umbrella... I'm not sure how well that would be received.

Now I've got bi-lateral bone-fusions in my ankles and have had knee surgeries and fractured bones in my legs, often walk with a faint limp and just turned 60. So not only can I score the senior discount at the local movie theater, but I could pull off the whole cane thing ...except who wants to look like and old geezer. I may be a "geezer" on line, but in person, I'd rather be mistaken for somebody who is still capable and competent. So my weapons are my keys, my cell phone, sometimes a small flashlight and I carry the following in my car:

http://www.atlantisgadgets.com/images/Club Security Steering Wheel with key.JPG

OK, I've had two vehicles stolen in this town, so for years I've carried a "club" steering wheel lock next to me in my truck. It can be grabbed in an instant, and properly used could be very handy for self defense.

I remember discussing this with my older brother who agreed with me. If something goes wrong with the two automatic handguns he always carries with him in his pick-up... he could always fall back on something like this. ;)
 
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Mephisto

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I just talked to my lawyer friend "Matt Murdock" he had this to say:
" I like the thread. MY thought would be to figure out a medical issue that is difficult to prove/disprove (ie: sciatica) that may result in the occasional use of a cane.

From a legal perspective court is about 2 things - evidence and gut reaction. If a clean cut guy says I have sciatica and the prosecution cant disprove then the jury would likely be swayed that he did not premedicate the violent use.

If you have pictures on your facebook training in combat cane, then those could be used against you."
 

Dirty Dog

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So your lawyer friend agrees with me. Obviously, he's an intelligent and well educated man. :)
 

jks9199

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Really?
1 - If the cop buys it, you're not going to end up in a courtroom.
2 - If you're in a courtroom in the US, the other side has to prove that you do NOT have a trick knee - which is impossible. You don't have to prove anything.
Depends on the charge... Aggravated assault isn't influenced by whether you carry a cane as an affectation or as a medical necessity. Remember that self defense is a defense of justification. ..

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
 
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Mephisto

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So your lawyer friend agrees with me. Obviously, he's an intelligent and well educated man. :)
Haha, well we came up with the strategy of taking down any facebook/social media combat cane pics you've got and for good measure put up an innocuous "just hanging out with my cane that I occasionally need" pic at the bar or something.
 

Dirty Dog

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Depends on the charge... Aggravated assault isn't influenced by whether you carry a cane as an affectation or as a medical necessity. Remember that self defense is a defense of justification. ..

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I'll stipulate that my comments were only as regards self defense. If you're the aggressor, you probably deserve whatever punishment the law provides.
 

drop bear

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I just talked to my lawyer friend "Matt Murdock" he had this to say:
" I like the thread. MY thought would be to figure out a medical issue that is difficult to prove/disprove (ie: sciatica) that may result in the occasional use of a cane.

From a legal perspective court is about 2 things - evidence and gut reaction. If a clean cut guy says I have sciatica and the prosecution cant disprove then the jury would likely be swayed that he did not premedicate the violent use.

If you have pictures on your facebook training in combat cane, then those could be used against you."

I heard your lawyer a bit of a daredevil though.
 
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