Value of Kata

[K-man]

Over the time I have been a member of this forum there have been numerous discussions on the value of kata, or the lack thereof. A person who's name crops up from time to time is Iain Abernethy, a man I respect highly. I subscribe to his newsletter and in the latest one he has a German translation of a prior article entitled "The Four Stages of Kata Training". I have attached the link to the original English article for your enjoyment and usual incisive comments . :asian:

 

[72ronin]

He will be down-under in march.

If you are in Vic. one place i know he will visit is Shindo Karate Assoc. Im sure others may attend so if your interested check out the Shindo website for further details.

cheers
72ronin

 

[K-man]

He will be down-under in march.

If you are in Vic. one place i know he will visit is Shindo Karate Assoc. Im sure others may attend so if your interested check out the Shindo website for further details.

cheers
72ronin

I know and I was booked to go. Then we were informed of a cancellation that left two spots on a cruise to Antarctica. I know, it was a toss up. Kata application with Iain or kayaking amongst the dolphins and whales .... ?
Tough choice, tossed a coin, Antarctica won. What more can I say?

The upside for you guys is that you will be without my acerbic wit for a couple of weeks in March. :asian:

 

[Chris Parker]

One quick question.... um, where's the link?

 

[72ronin]

Antarctica! Bugga Iain i'd go the holiday too.

cheers

 

[K-man]

One quick question.... um, where's the link?

Mmm! Good question.

http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/article_25.asp

 

[seasoned]

Mmm! Good question.

http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/article_25.asp

Good article, thanks.

 

[repz]

Read some of the article, it was mostly basic stuff thats of no surprise to a karateka. I was expecting controversy, someone once posted he wrote some stuff on kata and ground grappling, not sure what that was all about.

I love kata, kata is beautiful. The image of a karateka performing kata is such a strong image in my head, i cant see one without the other.

I see its usefulness in diving into the syllabus for techniques to drill in self defense. For strenth development in the stance and proper technique from weight shift to footwork. And, for performing them in a beach with soft sand, or in a pool, to further push the strength training in the stance, or to just look cool doing them.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I liked it very much, thank you for posting it!

 

[Blade96]

sweet article. Those 4 stages - its just the way I'm taught to do kata.

and yeah i love kata as well. and yes, kata is beautiful. pretty, graceful, strong, and artistic also come to my mind.

 

[K-man]

Read some of the article, it was mostly basic stuff thats of no surprise to a karateka. I was expecting controversy, someone once posted he wrote some stuff on kata and ground grappling, not sure what that was all about.

I love kata, kata is beautiful. The image of a karateka performing kata is such a strong image in my head, i cant see one without the other.

I see its usefulness in diving into the syllabus for techniques to drill in self defense. For strenth development in the stance and proper technique from weight shift to footwork. And, for performing them in a beach with soft sand, or in a pool, to further push the strength training in the stance, or to just look cool doing them.

Perhaps you should have read the whole article. It could be construed as controversial because grappling is part of kata and in Iain's terms would be included in stage two.
What you have described is stage one and 90% or more of karate-ka would not advance beyond that stage.

Read some of the article, it was mostly basic stuff that's of no surprise to a karateka.

You and your friends must be highly skilled. I probably spend over 20 hours a week, to the distress of my wife, just delving deeper and deeper. What I learn I try to pass on to my students.
Men like Iain, Patrick McCarthy, Rick Clark, Erle Montaigue and others are leading us in the quest to understand the real meaning of the kata. Many of my friends who have studied MAs for up to 50 years would be the first to admit they are only scratching the surface in their understanding.
So keep 'looking cool', if that is where you are satisfied to be, but be assured that is not even the first step of the journey. :asian:

 

[repz]

Perhaps you should have read the whole article. It could be construed as controversial because grappling is part of kata and in Iain's terms would be included in stage two.
What you have described is stage one and 90% or more of karate-ka would not advance beyond that stage.
You and your friends must be highly skilled. I probably spend over 20 hours a week, to the distress of my wife, just delving deeper and deeper. What I learn I try to pass on to my students.
Men like Iain, Patrick McCarthy, Rick Clark, Erle Montaigue and others are leading us in the quest to understand the real meaning of the kata. Many of my friends who have studied MAs for up to 50 years would be the first to admit they are only scratching the surface in their understanding.
So keep 'looking cool', if that is where you are satisfied to be, but be assured that is not even the first step of the journey. :asian:

I knew all about grappling in kata, i used to take ryu kyu kempo and we broke down the kata into self defense techniques and pressure point strikes. Maybe you should have also re-read my comment, where i said GROUND grappling. Someone on another forum mentioned this, which i said i dont know much about since i dont know this Ian, nor what he meant in that message (i can supply the link if you wish, its from another forum so i dont want to spam).

As for looking cool, yeah, i want some culture in my training. But its not 1840 where theres only one one training, i have a class full of atleast 30 people i can train with free of soldier intervention, and karate is still legal, so i can practice those techniques on them.

Its very unfortunate that out of all the words i wrote (as far as agreement to the writings as far as i read), and everything i said, you still managed to pick out "looking cool" from it to make a point.

 

[K-man]

I knew all about grappling in kata, i used to take ryu kyu kempo and we broke down the kata into self defense techniques and pressure point strikes. Maybe you should have also re-read my comment, where i said GROUND grappling.

I read 'GROUND' grappling. As I already stated, that is stage two. What did you think of stages three and four?

If you have a spare 30 minutes have a look at Sensei Patrick McCarthy: http://www.martialartsview.com/index-100.html
Don't just watch the first two minutes, watch the entire clip. Then we may have something to discuss. If you genuinely know all that he has learned in his lifetime quest, let me know where you are teaching and I will become your student.

 

[jks9199]

Hey, everybody... Let's remember where we are, huh? Lots of nuances get lost in the typing on the web -- and there's room to disagree without being insulting. Abernathy's four stages seem like a practical breakdown for anything. First, you learn the general pattern in an idealized situation, then you start figuring out how it "really works." Later, you start making it work in increasingly varied situations, and finally you move from doing "something" to simply doing... But I also think that a lot of folks out there are guilty of overanalyzing kata, too.

 

[repz]

I read 'GROUND' grappling. As I already stated, that is stage two. What did you think of stages three and four?

If you have a spare 30 minutes have a look at Sensei Patrick McCarthy: http://www.martialartsview.com/index-100.html
Don't just watch the first two minutes, watch the entire clip. Then we may have something to discuss. If you genuinely know all that he has learned in his lifetime quest, let me know where you are teaching and I will become your student.

From reading your responses, i dont see how i would want to review his material and post what i think here. Seems like i have to be careful with my responses in your posts on a public forum, since for some reason you think its warranted in making some comparison with someone who "took a life long quest", or how you would be my student and where i teach.

I was never even leaving a negative response anyway, so seems this topic is a little too sensitive for you.

 

[Grenadier]

As long as someone is gaining benefits from practicing the kata the way they want to practice it, then who is to say that their methods are absolutely right or wrong?

One person's way of using a tool may be different than another, or someone may use a different tool for the job at hand. If it works, then it works.

I don't entirely disagree with Abernathy. He does make several good points in that article, in that practical application is important. However, when it comes to practicing the kata, there comes a point where some could call it overkill. Perhaps the grappling aspect of the martial arts could be better practiced in partnered drills, or some other manner.

Again, different tools for different people. If someone wants to use a wrecking ball for demolishing a building, or construction explosives, either way will work just fine. Just level the old building!

 

[K-man]

Read some of the article, it was mostly basic stuff thats of no surprise to a karateka. I was expecting controversy, someone once posted he wrote some stuff on kata and ground grappling, not sure what that was all about.

I post an article by a world renown teacher on what is arguably one of the most important parts of karate and I get a response that says 'boring' nothing a karate-ka doesn't know, then I post a link to Patrick McCarthy giving an insight into his understanding which did not even elicit a response ... Whatever my thoughts on kata, which are probably obvious anyway, I thought others might have liked to comment on the four stages that Iain wrote about. Still, at least a couple of people enjoyed the article, that makes it worth the effort.

 

[Haze]

I enjoyed the article and Iain's DVD's and all he does. I may not agree 100% with it all but he does get one thinking about things

Patrick McCarthy is another one of my favorites. These men have spent years trying to get back to what the arts and kata were originally designed for. "Self Protection"

 

[Blade96]

Still, at least a couple of people enjoyed the article, that makes it worth the effort.

yeah. I enjoyed it. Like i said, sweet article :angel:

 

[repz]

I post an article by a world renown teacher on what is arguably one of the most important parts of karate and I get a response that says 'boring' nothing a karate-ka doesn't know, then I post a link to Patrick McCarthy giving an insight into his understanding which did not even elicit a response ... Whatever my thoughts on kata, which are probably obvious anyway, I thought others might have liked to comment on the four stages that Iain wrote about. Still, at least a couple of people enjoyed the article, that makes it worth the effort.

I NEVER said boring, so please dont add words to my postings. My post lies unedited with no "boring" in it. You pointed out that i only read a small portion, which was my reply, i would would have dived into the atricle if not for your replies afterwards.

None of that was nescarry.