Updated For The Modern World...

Flying Crane

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A discussion in another thread got me to thinking about something, and I thought I'd branch off and see where this discussion might lead...

I was thinking about what the above phrase means, "Updated for the Modern World". I often see this used to describe some of the martial methods that are practiced today, whether it be a "reality based" method or some new twist on a traditional art or a combination of several arts that seem to offer complimentary skill sets. What I believe is implied by this description is: More effective, more practical, skillsets to deal with situations that did not arise in the past.

I think to some degree this may be true. But on the other hand it could mean something else: Watered Down. It could actually mean both of these things at the same time, as they may not be mutually exclusive, and neither is Watered Down necessarily an endictment of the method.

Here's what I'm thinking.

First, we need to consider the history under which many of these arts originated. In many parts of Asia in the past (and perhaps even in the present), the common citizen could not depend on the police or a legal system to protect them and defend them from criminals or marauders or thugs. The legal system was not highly developed, and probably there was not a heavy police presence in many areas, especially the rural areas away from the main population centers. The legal systems of the time probably did not care much about the well-being of the average peasant either, and was more concerned with the well-being of the wealthy and the elite classes. In short, I believe the masses were largely ignored, unless they needed to be punished for a transgression against the elites.

Under these circumstances, Everyman was responsible in a very real way, for his own well-being, including his physical protection. This would extend to the protection of his family, and village. So they devised effective methods of fighting, both empty-handed and with weapons, and the techniques utilized by these methods were meant to maim and kill quickly and efficiently.

I've heard it said that in old China, most villages had their own specific martial method, and it was their first line of protection against bandits and marauders. The villagers all trained in their method and would work together to fight off attackers who might seek to do them harm, and these methods could be used in personal self-defense as well.

At any rate, that is what these methods were intended for: killing and maiming, and nothing short of that because they couldn't pick up the phone and call 911 and have a squad car there beside the Yangtse river in under two minutes. They needed to handle matters themselves. It was a different way of life, and life was valued differently than it is today.

Now, flash forward to the present day, at least here in most parts of the First World. We now have extensive, well trained and equiped, and effective police forces to establish order. We can call 911 to get help quickly. We have a legal system in place to prosecute criminals and keep them out of society so they cannot do further harm. If we need to defend ourselves, it is only for the very short term - i.e. get away from the immediate threat, so we can call 911 for additional assistance. This is a far cry from the older era when a thug who was not dealt with in a decisive and final way may just come back to get us later, and the legal system didn't exist to deal with this on our behalf.

As a society today we tend to look down on violence, even within a legitimate self-defense situation. We are concerned with criminal liability if we overstep certain limits in defending ourselves. We have this notion that we can only respond to violence with the minimum amount necessary to be safe, and no more. In short, we need to protect our assailant from "unreasonable" harm, when we fight back.

So our needs within the martial arts have changed. We now hold back when we defend ourselves. We do not execute extreme techniques that are designed to end a life, and we even express abhorrence when a method still contains these kinds of techniques. Because in our modern society, they are not necessary. And most of us rarely, or never, need to actually defend our very lives, so our experience with this kind of combat is minimal and our practical skills as a whole decline thru lack of need and lack of use, even tho we continue to practice.

The other side is the competition aspect. The old arts were never meant for competition. And when competition happened, often serious injury resulted. But competition has become a big part of modern martial arts. But there are rules designed to avoid serious injury, so the focus is on being as effective as possible, within a certain parameter. And that parameter excludes maiming and killing. So competitors have become very good at what they do, but again, they "hold back" from being truly destructive, altho many of their techniques may have the potential to be truly destructive. But there is never an opportunity to use them in this way.

Some modern developments that an "updated" art may include is firearms handling and defense, which didn't exist in the past. In this case, "updated" could mean "cutting-edge". So certainly this kind of thing is part of the picture.

Old weapon arts cannot really be updated and stay true to what they were. Weapons, by their very nature, intend to kill. It's kind of difficult to "sort of" stab someone with a sword or knife or spear. If you use a sword or knife or spear on someone, you intend to kill him, altho he may manage to survive. Likewise, I cannot "sort of" shoot someone with a bow, and intend to not kill him. He may survive, but when I loose that arrow, the intention would be that he dies. These methods are stuck in the past, and cannot really be updated and scaled back, while maintaining their original integrity.

So, this brings us back to my topic: Updated, and what does it mean.

Modern needs have changed the reasons why we train, and what we are allowed to do with our training. This is why I believe that when you look at the big picture, "updated" often means "Watered-Down".

And this is not intended to be a comparison or indictment of modern or sporting methods. They all serve their purpose remarkably well, it's just that their purpose has changed from the old days.

And neither is this an attempt to say "my traditional art is just too deadly, so I can't spar with you" or some other nonsense. In truth, as I stated above, thru lack of need, I believe most people are simply unable to utilize these methods in a truly destructive way to the same level as previous generations did. Most of us may practice these methods, but we probably don't truly understand them the way our ancestors did, so we are simply not as good.
 

geezer

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Modern needs have changed the reasons why we train, and what we are allowed to do with our training. This is why I believe that when you look at the big picture, "updated" often means "Watered-Down".

And this is not intended to be a comparison or indictment of modern or sporting methods. They all serve their purpose remarkably well, it's just that their purpose has changed from the old days.

Good essay. As much as the macho side of me is loath to admit it, I probably wouldn't be training in the martial arts if they weren't a bit "watered down" for our times. Hell, if I'm fifty-three, small to medium in size and not particularly gifted as an athlete. If I lived in barbarous times I'd probably be dead. Most of us would be. And if we were alive, our martial skills would be a hard earned necessity for survival rather than an enjoyable pastime. I work out with some FMA guys that train some pretty serious knife technique. Seeing what they could do makes me more than willing to accept the "burden" of living in (what for most of us is) peaceful times.
 

bostonbomber

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Well said Flying Crane. Unfortunately, I fear that as martial arts becomes more diluted we run the risk of losing the centuries of knowledge developed by people who relied on these skills for survival.
 

KenpoTex

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Flying Crane said:
Now, flash forward to the present day, at least here in most parts of the First World. We now have extensive, well trained and equiped, and effective police forces to establish order. We can call 911 to get help quickly. We have a legal system in place to prosecute criminals and keep them out of society so they cannot do further harm. If we need to defend ourselves, it is only for the very short term - i.e. get away from the immediate threat, so we can call 911 for additional assistance. This is a far cry from the older era when a thug who was not dealt with in a decisive and final way may just come back to get us later, and the legal system didn't exist to deal with this on our behalf.
I personally don't believe there's really practical difference between "now" and "then." Regardless of how effective and well trained your police officers are, unless one is standing right next to you, you're still going to have to deal with the problem on your own. Furthermore, you still need the capability to react in a decisive manner as there is no guarentee as to when help will arrive (if it ever does).


Flying Crane said:
As a society today we tend to look down on violence, even within a legitimate self-defense situation. We are concerned with criminal liability if we overstep certain limits in defending ourselves. We have this notion that we can only respond to violence with the minimum amount necessary to be safe, and no more. In short, we need to protect our assailant from "unreasonable" harm, when we fight back.

So our needs within the martial arts have changed. We now hold back when we defend ourselves. We do not execute extreme techniques that are designed to end a life, and we even express abhorrence when a method still contains these kinds of techniques. Because in our modern society, they are not necessary. And most of us rarely, or never, need to actually defend our very lives, so our experience with this kind of combat is minimal and our practical skills as a whole decline thru lack of need and lack of use, even tho we continue to practice.
The portions I bolded are exactly the reasons that I feel most "martial-artists" would be severely outmatched in a real "life or death" fight...
 

exile

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I personally don't believe there's really practical difference between "now" and "then." Regardless of how effective and well trained your police officers are, unless one is standing right next to you, you're still going to have to deal with the problem on your own. Furthermore, you still need the capability to react in a decisive manner as there is no guarentee as to when help will arrive (if it ever does).

Outstanding post, FC, and good followup, KT.

I think what's changed in part is that in contemporary culture, we tend to deny the reality of violence, or of the potential for violence. This idea seems to run counter to the familiar preoccupation, often reported in the media, that people have a much greater sense of the frequency of crime than statistics support, in many cases, but I don't really see a contradiction: people can be afraid of crime as a kind of almost depersonalized force of nature, without ever seriously contemplating what they would actually do confronted in a partking garage by some defective with a knife or baseball bat—a possibility a lot of people now simply refuse to think about. People send their children to MA schools, but perish forbid that the kids might actually be taught how to do serious, permanent damage to an attacker. That consideration as much as anything has led to the dilution of the MA curriculum in the average school, which increasingly has come to depend on children's classes and 'Little Tiger' programs—in many cases, martial baby-sitting/latchkey services—to stay in the black.

My own suspicion is that habitual acts of violence, as Patrick McCarthy famously dubbed them many years ago, are no different now from what they were in Bushi Matsumura's and Anko Itosu's day. Sucker punchers, grab and smash, the intimidating shove and so on, were probably used then just as they are now. As various people are credited with observing, there are only so many ways, given our biomechanics, to inflict damage on another person using your own body as a weapon. Like FC, I've often wondered just what there is to be updated. Were tavern brawls in 16th century Shuri, or Seoul, or Osaka any different from 21st century bar fights in those places—or in Seattle or Coventry or anywhere else? What's changed, massively, are the legal and social ramifications of violence, particularly violence in self-defense. But technically, what would the differences be? Like FC, I just don't see it...
 

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Outstanding post, FC, and good followup, KT.

+1
I think what's changed in part is that in contemporary culture, we tend to deny the reality of violence, or of the potential for violence. This idea seems to run counter to the familiar preoccupation, often reported in the media, that people have a much greater sense of the frequency of crime than statistics support, in many cases, but I don't really see a contradiction: people can be afraid of crime as a kind of almost depersonalized force of nature, without ever seriously contemplating what they would actually do confronted in a partking garage by some defective with a knife or baseball bat—

Lori
 

Imua Kuntao

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Good post! It might take time for the cops to come to your aid. I say check your state's laws, here in Tx. if two people attack one for whatever reason, the one defending may kill one or both attackers if there is great apprehension (fear for their life). I still try to practice the old ways, however its been a long time since I have gone to the gun range or Hogan's alley.
 

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Wonderful post, Flying Crane, and likewise, wonderful follow up, Kenpotex and Exile!

I got into the martial arts as a youngster partly because the mechanisms to protect me from harm in school and the neighborhood simply did not work. There was no zero tollerance policy and parents of bullies often told the parents of the bullies' targets things like, "your kid should learn to defend himself." So I did. I became so singlemindedly determined to end fights quickly that I got in a lot of trouble in school for fighting, from elementary through high school. I had a very good sense of when things were going to get physical and learned to strike before I was struck. I don't regret that to this day. By high school, I had the respect of the bullies, at least enough of it to make other targets more desireable than myself.

Consequently, I've carried that mentality into adulthood. As the saying goes, "when seconds count, the police are only minutes away." And with the problem of gangs, we now have the modern equivalent of roving bands of thugs. You take one assailant down a peg or two without killing him and you risk him coming back at you with twenty of his friends.

I still have that good sense of when things may get physical, and reading the situation and exiting it has been my strategy in adulthood, and not for legal reasons. Fights can be deadly. Opponents can be armed. I have been assailed by armed attackers and know this first hand. Thank the Lord that in those occasions, nobody was actually hurt in the end. But we are still very vulnerable, moreso because our society really doesn't understand just how vulnerable we each are individually.

To bring the topic back to the subject of 'updated for the modern world' I can't tell you what most schools mean by it, as I've never trained at any. I can tell you what I think that it should mean.

Firstly, it should be designed to aid the practitioner in SD against the current potential threats. Handguns are a factor that did not exist when many old martial systems came into existence; either they didn't exist or they were not commonly available as they are today.

Secondly, it should thoroughly delineate what the legal consequences of our actions are. Unfortunately, not only must we defend ourselves against attackers, we must also defend ourselves against their defense attourney and our own legal system.

Lastly, the curriculum needs to be taught in such a way as to be effective. The average martial arts hobbyist is not well prepared to defend themselves in a life or death situation. Half baked training makes for half baked defense when the time comes. I don't mean that everyone needs to be a killing machine, but whatever techniques you train in, learn them well, train to deliver them with the speed and power you would really need in a life and death scenario. Instructors of "modern world" self defense should stress this.

I'd much rather train hard in a demanding traditional martial arts dojo and make my archaic techniques effective than train at a low expectation, feel good McDojo with "modern real world self defense" added to the literature as a marketing ploy.

Daniel
 

Daniel Sullivan

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Outstanding post, FC, and good followup, KT.

+1
I think what's changed in part is that in contemporary culture, we tend to deny the reality of violence, or of the potential for violence. This idea seems to run counter to the familiar preoccupation, often reported in the media, that people have a much greater sense of the frequency of crime than statistics support, in many cases, but I don't really see a contradiction: people can be afraid of crime as a kind of almost depersonalized force of nature, without ever seriously contemplating what they would actually do confronted in a partking garage by some defective with a knife or baseball bat—

Lori
Very well stated.

Daniel
 

Brian R. VanCise

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Culture has changed and the mind set toward violence has changed. However, violence is still violence whether it was back in Japan, The Wild West or now. What has changed some what is our views on violence and how you will be treated after the fact. This is why each and every one of us needs to know and understand the laws in our area and what we can and cannot do to protect ourselves.
 

bostonbomber

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Culture has changed and the mind set toward violence has changed. However, violence is still violence whether it was back in Japan, The Wild West or now. What has changed some what is our views on violence and how you will be treated after the fact. This is why each and every one of us needs to know and understand the laws in our area and what we can and cannot do to protect ourselves.

I certainly agree with you about knowing the laws and this should guide how we train to respond to a threat. Having said that, I also agree with Ed Parker's statement: "It's better to be judged by 12 than carried out by six" (please excuse me if the quote is not exact).
 

Daniel Sullivan

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I certainly agree with you about knowing the laws and this should guide how we train to respond to a threat. Having said that, I also agree with Ed Parker's statement: "It's better to be judged by 12 than carried out by six" (please excuse me if the quote is not exact).
Perhaps not exact, but true.

Daniel
 

MJS

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First off, great thread, and great follow up posts by a few folks here! :)

As its been said, many techniques were deisgned a long time ago, and used with success. I wasn't around back then, but I'd imagine the fights were more life and death rather than 2 people trying to prove who is tougher.

Today, many of those same techs. are taught, and I'm sure many have been used today with success. IMO, I think where the phrase "updated for modern times" comes into play, is with the way they're executed, certain methods of attack, etc. Things that are done that seem stiff, static and rigid in nature, could be so, because they were done against someone with body armor. I doubt criminals today mug someone while wearing armor plating or a vest. A punch is a punch, a kick is a kick, but again, the updating may come due to people not being so rigid, but instead more fluid with the way they attack.

Some threads on old vs. new, have had posts with people asking why one would want to train with or against a sword when nobody walks around with one today. One reason is the history and tradition purpose, but also consider that many of these moves could translate to a) empty hand and b) against a similar weapon. We can keep the same principle, but 'update' the defense to face a modern day weapon.

I agree with the part that KenpoTex took and bolded from FCs post. So, we have people in the past who tried to kill the martial artist and they defended themselves by whatever means necessary, yet in todays world, we see just what was said...a lack of or toned down version of things because they're 'too violent' and can cause serious harm. Sooooo...we're supposed to tone down our response, but the guy trying to kill us isn't toning anything down?? I would need another set of arms and fingers so I could count the number of people I've taught that would cringe at the thought of an eye shot, anything that involved ripping, tearing or clawing, biting and things of that nature.

Like I said back in another thread....many things have stayed the same, its the execution method that has changed.
 
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Flying Crane

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Regardless of how effective and well trained your police officers are, unless one is standing right next to you, you're still going to have to deal with the problem on your own.

Just wanted to comment and clarify a bit...

I agree with what you are saying. My point simply being that once you have decisively dealt with the immediate threat and made your escape, you are now able to get help from law enforcement and the legal system for the necessary follow-up. With these systems in place, we often no longer need to kill the thug to ensure he doesn't come after us later. It is the government's role to handle the necessary punishment and confinement. Dealing with the situation successfully doesn't need to mean using lethal force for the average citizen. But until you successfully make your escape, then yes, it is all up to you.

Of course I also realize that our legal system is not perfect and there is no guarantee that the appropriate follow-up will happen. But this is the theory behind it, and as a society we buy into it, and to a large extent this dictates how we respond to a threat.
 

teekin

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In an odd twist, I can truthfully say that in a situation that involves non random violence, that is with domestics or stalkers, I would fully advocte lethal force or at least make the encounter so costly that it won't be repeated (total joint destruction, brain damage). The courts do not protect women. A restraining order means nothing. Violence is All the predators understand and ALL the predators respect.
I'll deal with the justice system after I'm safe.
Lori
 

geezer

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I certainly agree with you about knowing the laws and this should guide how we train to respond to a threat. Having said that, I also agree with Ed Parker's statement: "It's better to be judged by 12 than carried out by six" (please excuse me if the quote is not exact).

I don't know about that. After seeing some friends battle their way through our legal system, I sometimes wonder if a quick death might not have been for the best! LOL. And that's in a country with one of the best legal systems in the world!

Anyway, after reading through the many good posts here, I wonder if Martial Arts don't need a bit more "updating for the modern world". I don't mean watering down, but fleshing out our training to deal with the greater complexities of our time... So we don't have to choose between being judged by twelve or being carried by six.

In addition to effective combat skills, such "updating" should include the recognition and avoidance of threats in the modern world, de-escalation, and how to defend yourself without necessarily having to use lethal force. Also, I'd like to see included the use of, and defense against modern weapons as well as training in first aid techniques to survive any trauma incurred. Finally, as discussed before, we need to address coping with the legal ramifications of our actions.

Then again, if I had the stomach to endure all that legal garbage, I'd have gone to law school, I'd be rich, and too busy sueing all you guys to be sitting around and writing this. Ha!
 

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