UFC vs Traditional MA Debate

_JLC_

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Disclaimer: This post is intended to generate discussion. I've made a number of big generalizations, there will be exceptions of course. My comments aren't meant to be interpreted to mean one style of MA is better then another , or to bag UFC fighters or MA etc...

After watching UFC for awhile I've made a few observations.

1) Muay Thai seems to have benefited a LOT from MMA/UFC. Muay Thai fighters are obviously great, but in the UFC it seems the "Muay Trained" fighter just does a whole lot of round kicks. TKD/Kung Fu/Karate all do round kicks. The Muay Thai one is arguably more powerful as you are kicking through the target more, but sacrificing a little speed. Someone who practises TKD for example, should be able to interchange between a more "Muay" round kick and the more snap round kick effortlessly. Yet general UFC followers seem to disregard any other MA styles kicks? (Joe Rogan included). The knees/elbows in UFC rarely seem to be the way Muay Thai teach as well, or used in the same way. If a fighter just trained to do round kicks (any style) and boxing, they would have a good UFC striking game compared to the limited amount of Muay Thai that is used in UFC.

2) UFC fighters seem to telegraph what they are going to go a lot more then other MA's. Watch when a fighter does a spinning kick. Their back kicking leg is often across a lot more to make the kick easier, and they "wind up" before hand more obviously then MA's. Even Lyoto Machida's famous front kick KO is pretty set up, when you compare it to say Anderson Silvias front kick KO. But his opponent was leaning well forward in his stance for a easy target. Most kicking MA styles teach you to be able to kick at pull power from your normal stance without a big telegraph movement first, which slows you down and warns the opponent.

3)Gaurds? Watching the top UFC KO's, how many times could they have prevented it if they had a guard up? Round kicks to side of head, even punches etc. More MA's are taught at the beginning to always have a guard up. All boxers would have their guard up. This happens even when fatigue shouldn't be a factor.

4) UFC fighters seem to lack ruthlessness at times. When the opponent is on the ground, on occasions there seems to be a chance to punch/pound with more intent on finishing him. Submissions pay a larger part, where the traditional MA perhaps would go after the kill more.

5) UFC fighters normally ya LOT stronger/fitter then a typical MA. They are professionals and have really fight experience compared to many MAs. Where their technique might not be as pure or good (examples like off balance in kicks, kick power from strength rather then technique), they make up for it with their physical attributes and fighting experience. They nearly all have a solid to great ground game.

6) Most traditional MA are technically more sound, but lack the strength and fighting experience of a UFC fighter. If they trained to a similar strength and fitness (and some would be anyway), the pure MA should have a more then good chance of winning. When you compare a MA who has studied their art for 10 years + to a typical UFC fighter, the UFC fighter looks a lot less fluid in movements and technique, and leaves a lot more openings for the opponent.

There are however the top UFC fighters in more divisions who are a cut above the rest of the UFC, and are excluded from some of these generalizations...

Thoughts and comments :)
 

nocturnal_

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UFC has rules. Most styles that are commonly used in the UFC are also styles that have rules, like: Muay Thai, BJJ, Boxing, Judo, Wrestling. Martial Arts that have no rules won't do well in UFC, even if the practitioner trains at the same frequency as in the professional UFC fighter. It's a different matter when it's a street fight where anything goes.
 

Noah_Legel

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The way you train is certainly more important than what you train in, but when it comes to MMA there is a base skillset you need to know--striking, stand-up grappling, groundwork, and submissions. Where you get those from doesn't matter, as long as they work under pressure on an opponent that is actively fighting back. Muay Thai, boxing, wrestling, and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu are currently the most common arts to pull those methods from for MMA, but that's because they have been proven to work, fight after fight, year after year. Very few traditional schools cover all four of those aspects, and very few traditional schools train in an alive manner to pressure test what they do. You can be in better shape than the other guy, but if he has decent skills in all of those areas and you are fantastic at just one of them, you are probably still going to lose.

It's easy to say that MMA fighters are less skilled, sloppier, or lack ruthlessness--they have to worry about a lot more than traditional stylists do, after all! When we train for self defense, we are typically worried about some commonly used attacks from a mugger, brawler, or drunk that has little to no training. When MMA fighters train and compete, they have to worry about a wide variety of punches, kicks, elbows, knees, throws, trips, sweeps, leg locks, arm locks, and chokes from someone who has trained to be able to do all those things on someone who is fighting back. Sure, traditional stylists might be more technically skilled, but they tend to have a narrower focus, a longer time to practice it, and a tradition of perfectionism to back it up. MMA fighters could definitely benefit from bringing in traditional martial artists as "specialist coaches" to improve certain aspects of their game, but throwing a traditional stylist in the cage with an MMA fighter almost always ends in defeat for the traditional artist.

Let's not get into the old "rules vs. no rules" argument--it's been done to death. The fact is that pressure points, groin strikes, and eye gouges all failed in the early UFC events because dirty tricks alone do not win a fight, or save you in a self defense situation, if you just don't have any fighting ability, or if you get taken out of your area of expertise in a fight.
 

Cyriacus

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Guards are great, in theory. They can also close you off, and turn you into a human punching bag, or just someone really easy to slam to the ground. Going all defense doesnt work so good.
 

rframe

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There are however the top UFC fighters in more divisions who are a cut above the rest of the UFC, and are excluded from some of these generalizations...

Thoughts and comments :)

My thoughts are there are a bazillion threads comparing and contrasting MMA and other martial arts. My other thought is I'm bored this morning and felt like clicking reply anyway :)

#6 "Traditional MA are more technically sound".... let me summarize on this one because I think a lot of your other observations center on this. Most traditional martial artists never compete at the intensity level of 3 or 5 five-minute rounds of full contact knock down fighting. Watch someone who's never fought like this get in the octagon and they will likely be gassed within a minute and their awesome technique goes out the window.

Also, a lot of "soundness" goes out the window when you have someone really trying to beat the snot out of you, knock you out, or break your arm unless you submit. Real pressure is an awesome reality check.

Most traditional martial artists are also locked into a particular segment of fighting (they are strikers, boxers, or grapplers), they might have fantastic technical kicking, then all the sudden someone clinches with them and throws them to the ground and all the sudden they look like a fish out of water.... or they might be a phenomenal grappler but have very basic striking skills so their stand up game is all about avoidance with the occasional sloppy kick tossed out. The diversity of skill required in the octagon is large. Most fighters have some specialties, some are excellent traditional martial artists and strikers. Many hold dan grades in traditional arts... but as soon as you see them in positions they are less trained in, they are exhausted, and they are being attacked... things naturally start to look pretty sloppy.
 

Drose427

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I agree. Yes, Martial Artisist's may have more technical skill or ability, but they also don't have as much they need to focus on. In MMA, they have to learn, practice, and refine various types of techniques. Logically, theyre only gonna have a few techniques from each category that they know they can get close to perfection and implement them. Just like in any other striking art, theres so many different techniques you can use in sparring, or self defense. But do you use them all? They find what works for them, for striking, grappling, and groundwork, anf run with that. Instead of learning a 100 techniques, they essetially learn 10 and try to perfect those. Whats a technique if you cant implement it? Be it for MMA or self defense. The whole "One is better than the other" argument is ridiculous, because one Traditional Martial Artisist could very well beat an MMA fighter, but a different MMA fighter could beat the martial artist and vice versa. They train for different things, under different rules, and have different amounts of time to learn. In my opinion, trying to compare these two is like trying to compare any other martial or fight system to another. It's sorta getting old because everywhere I look this debate is there
 

Aiki Lee

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My thoughts are there are a bazillion threads comparing and contrasting MMA and other martial arts. My other thought is I'm bored this morning and felt like clicking reply anyway :)

#6 "Traditional MA are more technically sound".... let me summarize on this one because I think a lot of your other observations center on this. Most traditional martial artists never compete at the intensity level of 3 or 5 five-minute rounds of full contact knock down fighting. Watch someone who's never fought like this get in the octagon and they will likely be gassed within a minute and their awesome technique goes out the window.

Also, a lot of "soundness" goes out the window when you have someone really trying to beat the snot out of you, knock you out, or break your arm unless you submit. Real pressure is an awesome reality check.

Most traditional martial artists are also locked into a particular segment of fighting (they are strikers, boxers, or grapplers), they might have fantastic technical kicking, then all the sudden someone clinches with them and throws them to the ground and all the sudden they look like a fish out of water.... or they might be a phenomenal grappler but have very basic striking skills so their stand up game is all about avoidance with the occasional sloppy kick tossed out. The diversity of skill required in the octagon is large. Most fighters have some specialties, some are excellent traditional martial artists and strikers. Many hold dan grades in traditional arts... but as soon as you see them in positions they are less trained in, they are exhausted, and they are being attacked... things naturally start to look pretty sloppy.
This is why pressure testing is so important in a TMA school, but not everyone is into that sort of thing. Some people just want a hobby and other people want to learn an actual skill, so some will pressure test and some won't.
 

Kframe

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I think pressure testing is very important as well. Things are different when punches and attacks are coming at you with some speed.
 

Riffix

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If you watch UFC 1 - 10 you see seasoned martial artists pitted against each other in the octagon and you can see why the skill set they have now was developed. Especially after watching Royce Gracie fight
 

nocturnal_

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The fact is that pressure points, groin strikes, and eye gouges all failed in the early UFC events because dirty tricks alone do not win a fight, or save you in a self defense situation, if you just don't have any fighting ability, or if you get taken out of your area of expertise in a fight.

Dirty tricks alone do not win a fight, but on the street if a fight happens between a mid-rank UFC fighter and a Krav Maga or Wing Chun practitioner with a similar amount of training hours, my money would be on the Krav Maga or Wing Chun practitioner.

Aside from dirty tricks, in the street there are things like wet terrain, lamp posts, parked cars, concrete, garbage bins, dog poo, banana skins, broken glasses. It's a very foreign environment for people who are used by the rules.

In the octagon, no contest, the UFC fighter will win easily.
 

Blindside

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Aside from dirty tricks, in the street there are things like wet terrain, lamp posts, parked cars, concrete, garbage bins, dog poo, banana skins, broken glasses. It's a very foreign environment for people who are used by the rules.

So I'm curious, how often does a wing chun practitioner practice using parked cars, garbage bins, and dog poo? I sometimes practice in a park and in other outdoor settings, does that get me all experienced about fighting with all these environmental variables? I suspect most WC practitioners practice mostly in a Kwoon or other similar relatively safe setting, and not an a small irregular basalt surface floating in a sea of lava.
 

nocturnal_

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So I'm curious, how often does a wing chun practitioner practice using parked cars, garbage bins, and dog poo?

Not very often, but more often than a UFC fighter does. I have trained to fight in stairs, inside the restroom, in the dark, etc. Again, not very often, but still more often than an UFC fighter does.

I have also trained when I had fever. One of my instructors (not Wing Chun, but another 'no-rules' style) told me that I had to be prepared in all situations, including when I'm tired, have mild fever, minor injuries because attack can happen at anytime.

Does a UFC fighter fight when he has fever or injuries? I think some probably do, but most don't.

I sometimes practice in a park and in other outdoor settings, does that get me all experienced about fighting with all these environmental variables?

When you train in the outdoor settings, do you train to take the advantage of the environment? If yes, then at least you are more experienced than someone who doesn't. Of course there are many other factors beside the environment.

Styles with no rules (I was using Wing Chun and Krav Maga as examples because they are two of the most popular ones) teach you to take advantage of the environment and to go at all cost from the very start.

In the street, would a UFC fighter throw his shoes (just an example) to distract his opponent so he can pick up a brick or a bottle and get close? Maybe, but only after he runs out of option. While the 'no-rules' style will do this as the first option.

I'm not saying that UFC fighters aren't capable of winning street fights. What I'm saying is environment, state of mind, and dirty tricks makes a big difference in the street.

Just because Usain Bolt is the king in running tracks, doesn't mean he can beat the other sprinters (that he beats in track) in the swimming pool. What if he has to swim against real swimmers? On the other hand, the swimmers won't stand a chance in running tracks.
 

Cirdan

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This thread has potential... lava, pressure points and ufc 1 have already been brought up. Feels like a blast from the past. Getting some popcorn for later just in case. :D

Viking Berzerker Artz are superior to everything btw, why else would warhammers be banned in ufc? :viking2:
 

Cyriacus

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This thread has potential... lava, pressure points and ufc 1 have already been brought up. Feels like a blast from the past. Getting some popcorn for later just in case. :D

Viking Berzerker Artz are superior to everything btw, why else would warhammers be banned in ufc? :viking2:

Plus, you have to wear those stupid shorts. You know, my buddy Ulric tried to get into the UFC once. Apparently just wearing a bear skin is 'indecent exposure', so they escorted him out. Cowards. Theyre just afraid of sending a real man into the ring.
 

Cirdan

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Plus, you have to wear those stupid shorts. You know, my buddy Ulric tried to get into the UFC once. Apparently just wearing a bear skin is 'indecent exposure', so they escorted him out. Cowards. Theyre just afraid of sending a real man into the ring.

Yes, all thease weakling`s rules in a fight pff. They even took my brother Dagfart`s bag of `zerking scack (red flea mushrooms) away, claiming it was on some list of illegal substances.
 

Aiki Lee

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I didn’t respond to this earlier simply because I didn’thave time to address all the interesting points that could be brought up here,but I do now.
The way you train is certainly more important than what you train in, but when it comes to MMA thereis a base skill set you need to know--striking, stand-up grappling, groundwork,and submissions. Where you get those from doesn't matter, as long as they work under pressure on an opponent that is actively fighting back. Muay Thai,boxing, wrestling, and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu are currently the most common arts to pull those methods from for MMA, but that's because they have been proven towork, fight after fight, year after year.
MMA does pull from a variety of good arts, but they areall arts with sport fighting components. MT, boxing, wrestling, BJJ, and somesystems of karate have emphasis on competitive fighting each with its own rulesabout such a thing. In MMA the rules become more unified and all the various systems used in it blend together for an eclectic fighting sport. The way MMA has developed was very deliberate by those in charge of events. Rules are setup so that you can have the closest thing possible to actual combat without there likely being serious injury.
Other arts can’t work in the MMA field because very specific strategies they focus on are not as useful in sport competitions asthey would be for personal self-defense or life and death combat.
Veryfew traditional schools cover all four of those aspects, and very fewtraditional schools train in an alive manner to pressure test what they do. You can be in better shape than the other guy, but if he has decent skills in allof those areas and you are fantastic at just one of them, you are probablystill going to lose.
Some arts don’t cover certain aspects because they didn’t need to at the time they were created. Ground fighting for example would have been nearly useless for samurai. To deal with modern assaults though I do feelthat all the above you mentioned is important if you care about self-defense,but replace “submission” with “subdue” or “break”.
Personally I consider pressure testing important for aserious martial artist, but it honestly depends on what system you are studyingand why you chose to study it. But training for self-defense or non-sportcombat requires a very specific approach to pressure testing that isn’t foundin sport systems as far as I’m aware.
If you have mastered one skill and have to fight a jackof all trades you certainly have an shot at winning. It depends on how good aperson is at setting an opponent up for what one is good at doing. A superiorboxer could beat a person with moderate boxing, kickboxing, and judo skill aslong as he has a superior tactic.

It's easy to say that MMA fighters are lessskilled, sloppier, or lack ruthlessness--they have to worry about a lot morethan traditional stylists do, after all!

I think there’s a lot of misunderstanding by thiscomment.
I wouldn’t say MMA fighters are less skilled, or sloppy,or “lack ruthlessness” (not sure what you mean there). An MMA fighter is likelyless skilled at what some TMA do, but the TMA is less skilled at what the MMA practitioner does. The environments are different so the skill set isdifferent.
I’m going to take a guess at what you mean when you say “theyhave to worry about a lot more than traditional stylists do”, because that really depends on what the traditional stylist is training for. If he’s a karateka or TKD practitioner interested in tournaments then yes, there are less things his opponents will be allowed to do to them. If the traditional stylistis concerned with self-defense then no, there is a lot more to be worried aboutoutside of the ring than inside of it if a real violent encounter occurs. If you are talking old school martial arts then they probably don’t have to worry about people with spears or swords attacking them today, but the practitioners who developed it surely did!

When we train for selfdefense, we are typically worried about some commonly used attacks from amugger, brawler, or drunk that has little to no training.

While I would agree that most violent offenders probably don’t have formal martial arts training that doesn’t necessarily mean they haveno experience with violence. They might not have any skill, but you never really know. Every person who you may encounter in life should be treated as if they are competent and dangerous because the one time you think someone is a pushover is the time you will likely be surprised. That’s my opinion, anyway.

When MMA fighterstrain and compete, they have to worry about a wide variety of punches, kicks,elbows, knees, throws, trips, sweeps, leg locks, arm locks, and chokes fromsomeone who has trained to be able to do all those things on someone who isfighting back.

A couple things to consider here:
MMA fighter fight other MMA fighters who have spent time working on the same or similar skills they have in order to win a fight withvery specific pre-determined rules. More on this below though.
The other thing to consider is that in self-defense you have one attacker and one defender. Someone is focused on attack and wouldn’tbe attacking if they were considered for their safety, so the attacker doesn’t actively resist what the defender does, he focuses on attack.
In mutual non-sport combat (different from self-defense)the goal is to eliminate the opposing threat as soon as possible with the leastamount of damage done to you so the fight will play out differently than youwould see in a ring. One a person spots the advantage they capitalize on itwith abandonment to the thought of defense (because the situation is very highrisk). In sport fighting there is a back and forth exchange because there is noimmediate risk of death or maiming. They are completely different fromcompetitive sport matches.
Sure, traditionalstylists might be more technically skilled, but they tend to have a narrowerfocus, a longer time to practice it, and a tradition of perfectionism to backit up. MMA fighters could definitely benefit from bringing in traditionalmartial artists as "specialist coaches" to improve certain aspects oftheir game, but throwing a traditional stylist in the cage with an MMA fighter almost always ends in defeat for the traditional artist.
Like I said above a traditionalist will be more skilledat what he works on and an MMA fighter will be more skilled at what he works on.
I’m a traditionalist and my focus is much broader notnarrower.
The time of practice depends on the individual not the system. After all you could have a 10 year veteran of the octagon and a whitebelt traditionalist. Who has more time there?
Throwing a traditionalist in the cage with an mma fighterwould likely end with the defeat of the non mma fighter. That’s the mma fighter’senvironment! Take him out of that environment and put him in one more suited for another person who trained for that situation and it would be reversed.

Let's not get into the old "rules vs. no rules" argument--it's been done to death. The fact is that pressurepoints, groin strikes, and eye gouges all failed in the early UFC eventsbecause dirty tricks alone do not win a fight, or save you in a self defensesituation, if you just don't have any fighting ability, or if you get taken outof your area of expertise in a fight.
Actually we do have to get into the old rules vs no rulesargument, but maybe with a different take on it. The way the argument alwaystends to go is “We’ll we would just break all the rules in a real fight!” right? The problem withthat is obviously the MMA fighter would obviously not observe rules in a fightwhere is life was at stake either. That approach to the argument is stupid andflawed.
But the rules vs no rules does still apply but for a different reason. Rules of any kind whether spoken or unspoken affect different martial arts and their development and their effectiveness across other environmentsthey were not designed for.
In MMA the rules have been established to make fights assafe and entertaining as possible. MMA is as close to mutual combat you can getwithout being barbaric or unethical (in my opinion). Rules shape and limit thepossible strategies and tactics that can be used to win in that environment.Those strategies and tactics are drilled into a martial artist until they become ingrained. An MMA fighter will naturally begin to fight in a way that helps him win competitions. His or her ability to win in a serious life ordeath situation has to do with how well he or she can adapt those trainedtactics and strategies to a new environment.
Traditional schools that have a strong and accurateapproach to self-defense will teach strategies less useful to competitivefighters that instead focus on quick and immediate neutralization of danger.Since they would all break the rules in competition, the traditionalist is often left with no usable skills that the MMA fighter doesn’t expect or possess.
Sport fights are about making things as even as possible for entertainment.
Traditional martial arts focusing on self-preservationfocus on stacking the odds as highly in your favor as possible.
They are designed for different things and for a practitioner of either to do what is expected of the other in their area of expertise would require the individual to be able to adapt his training to new environments.
 

Grenadier

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To the OP:

It looks like you're comparing apples to oranges, when you're making your comparisons between traditional martial artists and mixed martial artists.

The biggest issue here, is that the MMA practitioners you're referring to are competitors, whereas most traditional martial artists in your grouping aren't going to be competitors. Most non-competitor traditional martial arts folks aren't going to go through intense physical conditioning, nor are they going to follow strict dietary regimens that are optimized to build lean muscle mass, whereas your "typical" MMA practitioner is going to be more interested in competition, and will be more apt to do such things.

Furthermore, the UFC is going to attract the upper tier of athletes / competitors, making it even more skewed.

A much more valid comparison would be to look at traditional martial artists who compete at the world level, such as those in the World Karate Do Federation (WKF), where all of those competitors go through intense physical and nutritional conditioning.
 

rframe

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And again... as I mentioned above, many MMA fighters and UFC "stars" ARE "Traditional Martial Artists" too.

GSP talks a lot about his Kyokushin training.
Anderson Silva is still very active in Tae Kwon Do.
Lyoto Machida has deep roots in Shotokan.
Even bad boy trash talking Nick Diaz talks about his roots growing up learning karate.
Vitor Belfort is ranked in Judo and Shotokan.

The list goes on and on and on...
Of course, nearly every UFC fighter is highly ranked in some flavor of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.

A good martial artists knows how to take what is applicable to a particular situation and use it. That's what these guys do. The whole rules vs no rules stuff is nonsense. Everyone is on the same playing field. If I cannot rip your eyeball out and neither can you rip mine out, then it's irrelevant.
 

enthusiast

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If you watch UFC 1 - 10 you see seasoned martial artists pitted against each other in the octagon and you can see why the skill set they have now was developed. Especially after watching Royce Gracie fight

can you give us a link for those videos?I have seen 1 and 2 but not the later ones.thanks man
 

martial sparrer

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sometimes I wish ufc fighters would use more kicks....all we get to see most of the time is roundhouse....I love how jon jones uses jkd side knee kick....which stops most fighters from taking him down....I guess a lot of kicks have you turning from your opponent which means take down....
 

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