UFC proves KF useless

grydth

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What if you were attacked in England where carrying firearms is illegal, or maybe you left you gun in your other pants thats day?, putting all your faith in a 'tool' is not wise.

lol @ firearms being a ''uniquely american martial art'' thats funny in so many levels.

Anyone who leaves guns laying around, especially in dirty clothes, deserves the Darwinesque reward awaiting them.

I never said I put all my faith in a tool... that quote is your invention.

Laugh all you want... you people are giving away your right to self defense. We will not. Your guns are already gone... soon your martial arts and weapons will be gone, too.

Yeah, unique - here we don't have to wait in our own home like sheep to be slaughtered. We have a saying about such "tools" - better to have and not need, than need and not have.
 

Andrew Green

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Um, ok...so arena means sand. Then all sports that are played in an arena mean they are played in the sand. It's not the same thing. The use of the term kung fu is being used as a generalization. It's not a true style. To be completely honest, I just want to point out two people, since we are using generalizations, GSP and Chuck. They study TMA...have black belts in traditional arts and they filled in the blanks with wrestling, kickboxing, BJJ and more. How is what they do not kung fu?

I'm pretty sure neither of them still do.
 

shesulsa

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If an average guy like me is set upon by a gigantic trained fighter a foot taller, a hundred pounds heavier and a generation younger.....he is likely going to die no matter what he practices. This result doesn't prove anything about kunf fu, tai chi, MMA or anything else.....

Of course, this is why for many years, I have pursued knowledge of 2 uniquely American martial arts - fire arms training and legal knowledge. Even on the off chance Mr MMA survives the 3 exploding rounds to the body, he will think the legal Hell worse than the religious one by the time I'm done.

Have a nice day everyone.

I'm amused that you feel that legal knowledge is a "uniquely American art."

I'm also amused that you feel that the fella you put "three exploding rounds" into is going to find his "legal hell worse than the religious one." Three exploding rounds sounds excessive and while I like my right to own firearms, we always must be careful how much we extend ourselves, else we might find ourselves right side along the very one we put down.

Good luck with those American Arts.
 

Carol

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If firearms training is a uniquely American art, then why are the pistols that I like from German-speaking countries?
 

brothershaw

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Really, its four arts (boxing, MT, western wrestling, BJJ) or any combination that gives similar techniques and practices. You will find few people who are pure JJ with little striking; even Big Nog and Royce have standup training.

my point-compared to boxers or muay thai you dont see the same level of skill in striking


Of course not. They are more specialized activities and few MMAists would do well in pure boxing. Also, boxing requires heavier gloves and which change which punches are effective. Boxing is only one of the four arts, and comprises less than 20% of a normal MMAists training schedule.

my point- they specialized thier training to match the rules of UFC
and increase thier chance of winning

Thats why we speak of MMA as a test for unarmed fighting skill, not for the totality of possible skills. Also, I suspect that the addition of knives would cause a higher practice of existing BJJ, MMA, and SAMBO knife defenses rather than a different art.

my point- they would gravitate to arts that have expertize in knife work for example, i would go to the fmas before sambo for that just like you might go to bjj or sambo for ground fighting, also UFC is a test for unarmed fighting skill within the confines of its RULES, boxing is also a test of unarmed fighting skills within the context of the RULEs of boxing



True enough.



More "street vs. sport" eh?
my point- was not street vs sport,


People don't break arms because it is ussually unnecessary. When the opponent does not promtly tap out, then the arm will be broken. THere are plenty of videos of this happening.

my point- in a "real" life and death fight you probably will break the arm immediately or choke out to death and not give a damn about a "tap" not necessarily just go until the other person quits or the ref ends it



Consider looking to no-rules challenges and early tournaments (legal in the early Vale Tudos and the AFCs, only a fine in the early UFCs, Combat SAMBO total etc).



Outside the immediate scope of evaluating unarmed fighting. It could be evaluated in another context.

I am not arguing against the usefulness of mma or its value, its just that it is taken out of context, alot of the mma guys are PROFESSIONAL, and semi- pro athletes competing within the defined rules of thier sport, i am sure most of them or any other professional athlete can kick some butt on the street , but it is now a defined sport
 

grydth

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I'm amused that you feel that legal knowledge is a "uniquely American art."

I'm also amused that you feel that the fella you put "three exploding rounds" into is going to find his "legal hell worse than the religious one." Three exploding rounds sounds excessive and while I like my right to own firearms, we always must be careful how much we extend ourselves, else we might find ourselves right side along the very one we put down.

Good luck with those American Arts.

Many people are taught to shoot in 3 round groups when using a semi automatic firearm. There is no guarantee with only one shot in a life or death situation that you are going to strike a vital area, or even hit at all. Where one runs a risk, as a matter of law, is when you drop an assailant with two and put the third into the head or back of a prone and incapacitated individual.

I strongly believe more victims should follow the example of Mr Goldman's father - that being the dad of the guy OJ knifed. He has hounded OJ in the courts for years. Even without that extent, the legal system has become the primary means in America by which people attack and defend and deal with enemies.

Yes, I do think guns are to Americans as family blades were to Japanese.

I'm glad I can amuse the folks here. Seriously, I've never been one who cared an ounce what others think of me. Not going to start now.
 

grydth

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If firearms training is a uniquely American art, then why are the pistols that I like from German-speaking countries?

While I can't account for your preferences in anything, that was spectacularly poor phrasing on my part. Especially from a guy who enjoyed using a Walther P-38, at regular outings at a German shooting club, while in the Army.

Firearms training should instead have read firearms culture in America. While a number of Germans do love to shoot - many I knew loved American revolvers, go figure - I never have been in another country like the USA. My perception is that firearms are ingrained much more deeply in our history and culture than most anyplace else.... most especially as individuals and families.
 

Carol

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My perception is that firearms are ingrained much more deeply in our history and culture than most anyplace else.... most especially as individuals and families.

Ahh cool! That's fair :)

I've haven't had enough interaction with German folks to know how deep firearms and marksmanship is engrained in to their culture. But, it was difficult for me to imagine such fine German engineering on a product they didn't enjoy. Thanks! :)
 

grydth

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I hope you get a chance to visit - great country and great folks. Also, a much older culture so there's an affinity for the old arms + armor across Europe. Terrific museums and fencing has long been popular.
 

Tames D

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Ahh cool! That's fair :)

I've haven't had enough interaction with German folks to know how deep firearms and marksmanship is engrained in to their culture. But, it was difficult for me to imagine such fine German engineering on a product they didn't enjoy. Thanks! :)
Being German, I can tell you that firearms are very popular with me and my relatives here in the United States and Germany.
 

Hand Sword

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I guess that the real answer to this thread! It's not UFC, or any other art that proves KF useless. It's firearms, and the real application of them, that rendor them all useless!
icon10.gif
 

shesulsa

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I guess that the real answer to this thread! It's not UFC, or any other art that proves KF useless. It's firearms, and the real application of them, that rendor them all useless!
icon10.gif
Guns are not a panacea (as you knew I'd say from my previous arguments here), nor are their users infallible nor unbeatable. To think so is dangerous thinking - just as dangerous as thinking that guns are never, ever necessary in civilian hands.

Ah the full circle yet again!
 

shesulsa

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just adding some humor to what was being discussed. I agree with those statements, but.....Nah, not enetring that circle
icon7.gif
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Heh - I missed my smiley there ... :) ... too tired. G'night!
 

Odin

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Anyone who leaves guns laying around, especially in dirty clothes, deserves the Darwinesque reward awaiting them.

I never said I put all my faith in a tool... that quote is your invention.

Laugh all you want... you people are giving away your right to self defense. We will not. Your guns are already gone... soon your martial arts and weapons will be gone, too.

Yeah, unique - here we don't have to wait in our own home like sheep to be slaughtered. We have a saying about such "tools" - better to have and not need, than need and not have.

Read your post, you said if a mucles bound MMA approached you you would unload your gun on him?what if you didnt have a gun? wouldnt the base of your attack then be gone?so would that then mean your puttting your best chances on survial on a peice of metal?

We're not giving away our right to self defence we're giving away the right to kill, please tell me why do I need to kill a guy to defend myself??

The more guns you allow people to have in your country the more people will use them for all the wrong reasons.
 

Jade Tigress

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ATTENTION ALL USERS

Please return to the original topic.

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kidswarrior

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It seems the consensus of even this thread is that Kung Fu (or TMA as a whole) is lacking in reality of dealing with grapplers or ground game. Is that really so? Why is that? Did fights never end up on the ground 300 years ago? Is grappling such a new thing? Did the ancient civilizations not learn and even compete in wrestling? Maybe is a modern thing that leaves dealing with the ground game out of TMA teachings. Of course fighting in certain rules, the one who trains those rules will always win, but what about self defense? What about reality fighting using the modern MMA methods or the traditional methods of systems like kung fu?

No, I believe my kung fu would do fine on the ground, but I would have to use techniques that would be 'cheating' in any sport situation, as the window for defense would be very short and dangerous (i.e., kung fu is not really designed as a sport--so at a disadvantage when constrained by rules)


Does the grappling and ground tactics (arm bars, chokes, triangle holds, BJJ) really negate the tools a kung fu or CMAist would have? A trained grappler is not going to play around with the fight, a choke or armbar means certain death or serious injury in a real situation. Does that overtake the seriousness of kung fu techniques or principles?

No, just intensifies the time frame--pinch, bite, break bones/joints through small circle chin na, gouge, etc.--NOW. Talk about not playing around with a fight.:jediduel:


I really agreed with a lot of your post. Here is the exact mentality I was attempting to discuss using the UFC term. I didnt mean to imply simply UFC sanctioned fights, but the mentality of MMA (mixed martial arts) or cross training. Is the best way to beat a boxer really learning to box? Will I ever really reach the same level of boxing that my opponent would? Is CMA or kung fu really outdated or ineffective against other styles? Is kung fu only effective against kung fu? What do you feel is lacking that needs to be picked up with cross training?
7sm

Nothing is missing, but there is certainly room to cross train in other arts (I tell my students I don't mind this, but please wait a couple of years so as to get well grounded in my system). I believe I myself have benefitted from cross training, but all have been street (actual self-defense) arts, not sport or point fighting.
 

evenflow1121

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I think there is a general misconception with respect to wu shu or any other traditional arts being ineffective when compared to UFC. UFC fights are great, but they are done in a controlled environment. Yes they are great, they are brutal, and perhaps violent even, but it is not a street fight. They are great fights, with excellent and very talented fighters, but once again not a street fight. I dont think UFC proves anything to that sort, UFC is great to watch but I would not go as far as saying that it proves KF useless.
 

Andrew Green

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No, just intensifies the time frame--pinch, bite, break bones/joints through small circle chin na, gouge, etc.--NOW. Talk about not playing around with a fight.:jediduel:

I have two problems with this line of thinking.

1) Most people that express it spend absolutely no time training these things on the ground, and esspetially not against someone that sort of knows what they are doing.

2) As soon as you do it, you open the door for the other guy too. If he is better at controlling position on the ground you will regret it. Us folks that like to grapple understand that those attacks are there, and we tend to protect ourselves against them.
 

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