Vertical punching

  • Thread starter Deleted member 39746
  • Start date
D

Deleted member 39746

Guest
This is more advice for myself but any compilation of advice can be used as others.

Anyway we all know i like my punching with a vertical fist, namely based off pugilism rather than other styles but the main difficulty i have ran into is, how do i aim my fist, there are some different ways to aim your fist to hit with varying parts.





Other than that having difficulty with relevant power generation theory other than rotate hips. Its not that bad as im pretty sure i can generate a lot of force as is, but its the fine details and the lack of the rotation of the arm cuts some of the power down.

I will be breaking out one of the books i brought on pugilism at some stage to review. Which is self defence for gentlemen and ladies by col thomas hoyer monstery. And reviwing some channels to look for it and am intrested in further sources.


The fist i am trying to do to is just a plain straight fist, as it stands where would be a good place to aim for and what finger would be the best to aim with while doing it has eluded me and finer points of power generation have also (which is namely a inexperience thing due to not getting into advanced methods in the styles i have done)

So with that i leave the questions open and my jumbled way of asking it here. :p

Addendum
: Just quickly did a test on my hand and aiming with the middle finger seems like it would induce a entire fist punch, also i have merged a few different ways of doing by mistake if i dont other wise specify, i believe Monstery details a different punch mainly to the one(s) i have been practicing(which is just a plain vertical fist)

Second Addendum:
Instruction in pugilism is non existent near me so a teacher is out of the question and other styles start with a horizontal first to which i dont wish to learn correctly.

Third addendum:
For some pad sessions i have mainly punched with a vertical fist and felt no over pain or daage to my hand the defacto way(s) i did it. (granted its punching pads and lightish contact not full force on a skull or torso)

Sources used mainly by me
: Book detailed above by Col Thomas Hoyer Monstery, a channel on English martial arts called english martial arts and a few diffent HEMA channels on youtube. (namely english martial arts for visual on punch i wish to do)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Bill Mattocks

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Feb 8, 2009
Messages
14,964
Reaction score
3,266
Location
Michigan
I truly do not understand your questions.

Target? Whatever presents itself.

Aiming finger? I have no idea what you mean by that.
 
OP
D

Deleted member 39746

Guest
I have highlighted the main two points in Italics in a attempt o make it easier for the main problems i have to be understood. and done other wise format editing to help separate some of it.
(just seemed Over kill to have a FOURTH addendum)

I truly do not understand your questions.

Target? Whatever presents itself.

Aiming finger? I have no idea what you mean by that.

Aiming finger would be which finger i use to aim my fist off of. eg the standard two are the top two for most people. so you move your hands to hit you desired target with the top two knuckles.

As for target, its more what the vertical fist would connect the best with without either damaging your hand or slipping off or something. Granted that's less of a issue.
 

Bill Mattocks

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Feb 8, 2009
Messages
14,964
Reaction score
3,266
Location
Michigan
I have highlighted the main two points in Italics in a attempt o make it easier for the main problems i have to be understood. and done other wise format editing to help separate some of it.
(just seemed Over kill to have a FOURTH addendum)



Aiming finger would be which finger i use to aim my fist off of. eg the standard two are the top two for most people. so you move your hands to hit you desired target with the top two knuckles.

As for target, its more what the vertical fist would connect the best with without either damaging your hand or slipping off or something. Granted that's less of a issue.

You're making things too complicated. Some styles hit with the top two knuckles, some with the bottom three. If you had an instructor, I'd say listen that person. Both methods can work.

The characteristics of the vertical fist do not require to only be orientated vertically. Turn the fist to fit the body part you're hitting. You'll find the correct orientation as you practice strikes with an uke.
 
OP
D

Deleted member 39746

Guest
The advantage of the vertical fist vs. the horizontal fist is that your elbow joint will have less chance to be "cracked - one hand catch on the wrist, another arm strike on the elbow joint".
Personally when i switched to it while doing bag work i stopped getting pain in my elbow so it elivated that issued for me. There is also it keeps your elbows in more so it can be harder to get grabbed under the arms if you do it right.
Edit: I think thats what you just described, i mis interpreted it until i re read what you put. :p


ou're making things too complicated. Some styles hit with the top two knuckles, some with the bottom three. If you had an instructor, I'd say listen that person. Both methods can work.

Im trying to figure out which works best for myself, hitting with the bottom 3 tends to make the entire fist contact said target top two tends to just have them, at least as far as i remember for how i did it. But when i did pad work and got away with not doing horizontal fists i don't think i though about my hand position and didn't notice anything. (but again not full power and not on a skull) I shall have to do further testing.

The characteristics of the vertical fist do not require to only be orientated vertically. Turn the fist to fit the body part you're hitting. You'll find the correct orientation as you practice strikes with an uke.

As in have my palms facing inwards with a fist then twist into a vertical punch to generate some rotation? And whats a uke? Some of this terminology escapes me.
 

Bill Mattocks

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Feb 8, 2009
Messages
14,964
Reaction score
3,266
Location
Michigan
Personally when i switched to it while doing bag work i stopped getting pain in my elbow so it elivated that issued for me. There is also it keeps your elbows in more so it can be harder to get grabbed under the arms if you do it right.
Edit: I think thats what you just described, i mis interpreted it until i re read what you put. :p




Im trying to figure out which works best for myself, hitting with the bottom 3 tends to make the entire fist contact said target top two tends to just have them, at least as far as i remember for how i did it. But when i did pad work and got away with not doing horizontal fists i don't think i though about my hand position and didn't notice anything. (but again not full power and not on a skull) I shall have to do further testing.



As in have my palms facing inwards with a fist then twist into a vertical punch to generate some rotation? And whats a uke? Some of this terminology escapes me.

It's not the rotation that matters, it's aligning your fist with the target. I might rotate palm up to deliver an uppercut, palm down for a liver punch. It's how the fist forms to the target.
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
28,031
Reaction score
9,165
Location
Hendersonville, NC
Personally when i switched to it while doing bag work i stopped getting pain in my elbow so it elivated that issued for me. There is also it keeps your elbows in more so it can be harder to get grabbed under the arms if you do it right.
Edit: I think thats what you just described, i mis interpreted it until i re read what you put. :p




Im trying to figure out which works best for myself, hitting with the bottom 3 tends to make the entire fist contact said target top two tends to just have them, at least as far as i remember for how i did it. But when i did pad work and got away with not doing horizontal fists i don't think i though about my hand position and didn't notice anything. (but again not full power and not on a skull) I shall have to do further testing.



As in have my palms facing inwards with a fist then twist into a vertical punch to generate some rotation? And whats a uke? Some of this terminology escapes me.
A couple of thoughts. The elbow pain is probably because you're doing something wrong. That's part of the risk of training without a coach or instructor involved.

My vertical punch is the same punch as my horizontal straight punch - all the same basic characteristics, except the rotation of the forearm. It's mostly a result of distance (near-field punches are usually vertical, longest range horizontal, and some options in between) or what I want to protect (I can't use the shoulder to shield the head with a vertical punch, but can more easily cover my ribs). The horizontal punch with the shoulder up is a different punch than the one with the shoulder down, and the one with the shoulder down is the same punch as the vertical.

Oh, and "uke" is the person receiving (a punch, throw, etc.).
 

Langenschwert

Master Black Belt
Joined
Apr 12, 2007
Messages
1,023
Reaction score
351
Location
Calgary, AB, Canada
I would recommend Jack Dempsey's "Championship Fighting" as an excellent book on older boxing. He goes into a lot of detail on power generation, especially on his Dempsey Drop. He advocates using the ring finger to aim.

@Rat: what is your striking background?
 
OP
D

Deleted member 39746

Guest
what is your striking background?

I have done TKD for a little bit and dabbled in something else. I got what ever they teach white belts how to punch down apart from remembering to do the hip twists at least. I have done a decent bit of pad work with the most recent one i went to through. And i did used to go through staged of punching a heavy bag quite a lot.



The elbow pain is probably because you're doing something wrong. That's part of the risk of training without a coach or instructor involved.
Pretty sure i did that thing where the arm isnt fully extended so all the energy went into my elbow when i punched, which vertical punching mitigated to some extent i believe.
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
28,031
Reaction score
9,165
Location
Hendersonville, NC
I have done TKD for a little bit and dabbled in something else. I got what ever they teach white belts how to punch down apart from remembering to do the hip twists at least. I have done a decent bit of pad work with the most recent one i went to through. And i did used to go through staged of punching a heavy bag quite a lot.




Pretty sure i did that thing where the arm isnt fully extended so all the energy went into my elbow when i punched, which vertical punching mitigated to some extent i believe.
If you're feeling it in your elbow, you're definitely doing something wrong. It shouldn't strain your elbow, at any point in the stroke (short punch, long punch, or anywhere between). From that, I'd say you didn't get that TKD punch down, at all, as that's a pretty obvious flaw in the technique. My first thought would be inappropriate tension, without being able to see what you're doing.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
10,179
Reaction score
4,122
Location
New York
@Rat Going to agree with the elbow thing. If the issue gets resolved slightly when you punch vertical, my bet is going to be that you pop your elbow to the slide slightly when you punch with a horizontal or twisting fist, it's a pretty common thing. Any chance you could take a video of yourself throwing a few punches, so we can see what's going on?
 

Martial D

Senior Master
Joined
May 18, 2017
Messages
3,400
Reaction score
1,145
This is more advice for myself but any compilation of advice can be used as others.

Anyway we all know i like my punching with a vertical fist, namely based off pugilism rather than other styles but the main difficulty i have ran into is, how do i aim my fist, there are some different ways to aim your fist to hit with varying parts.





Other than that having difficulty with relevant power generation theory other than rotate hips. Its not that bad as im pretty sure i can generate a lot of force as is, but its the fine details and the lack of the rotation of the arm cuts some of the power down.

I will be breaking out one of the books i brought on pugilism at some stage to review. Which is self defence for gentlemen and ladies by col thomas hoyer monstery. And reviwing some channels to look for it and am intrested in further sources.


The fist i am trying to do to is just a plain straight fist, as it stands where would be a good place to aim for and what finger would be the best to aim with while doing it has eluded me and finer points of power generation have also (which is namely a inexperience thing due to not getting into advanced methods in the styles i have done)

So with that i leave the questions open and my jumbled way of asking it here. :p

Addendum
: Just quickly did a test on my hand and aiming with the middle finger seems like it would induce a entire fist punch, also i have merged a few different ways of doing by mistake if i dont other wise specify, i believe Monstery details a different punch mainly to the one(s) i have been practicing(which is just a plain vertical fist)

Second Addendum:
Instruction in pugilism is non existent near me so a teacher is out of the question and other styles start with a horizontal first to which i dont wish to learn correctly.

Third addendum:
For some pad sessions i have mainly punched with a vertical fist and felt no over pain or daage to my hand the defacto way(s) i did it. (granted its punching pads and lightish contact not full force on a skull or torso)

Sources used mainly by me
: Book detailed above by Col Thomas Hoyer Monstery, a channel on English martial arts called english martial arts and a few diffent HEMA channels on youtube. (namely english martial arts for visual on punch i wish to do)
I like the vertical fist for a few reasons. Firstly, I disagree that you lose power using it. Yes, you lose the snap and extra shoulder pop from the inward rotation you get from the standard boxing punch, but you gain the penetration of the low elbow power connected to the hips. I'll take that trade any day.

The second reason I like to throw like that my arm is harder to get ahold of elbow in, and underhooks are harder to get with my elbows in, it's easier to sprawl with my elbows in, and I'm less likely to get caught with a straight line strike with my elbows in.

Did I mention I like to keep my elbows in?

Lastly, I find the impact more comfortable/better on my hands vertical.
 
OP
D

Deleted member 39746

Guest
Any chance you could take a video of yourself throwing a few punches, so we can see what's going on?

No bag or tripod for a camera. (and i dont have face coverings since thats a policy of mine for internet uploads :p) I will revise it when/if i get a tripod for the video camera etc.

Also, i think i resolved it, but im not sure as i haven't actually used a bag in a while. I dont recall getting any pain in lessons or post lessons after pad work for punching. But at least i adjusted to something which apparently didn't cause such a issue.

I think my elbow did sometimes rise up slightly as i believe it was mainly in my strong arm.


@Langenschwert Also Book has been ordered as it was sub 瞿10.
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
28,031
Reaction score
9,165
Location
Hendersonville, NC
No bag or tripod for a camera. (and i dont have face coverings since thats a policy of mine for internet uploads :p) I will revise it when/if i get a tripod for the video camera etc.

Also, i think i resolved it, but im not sure as i haven't actually used a bag in a while. I dont recall getting any pain in lessons or post lessons after pad work for punching. But at least i adjusted to something which apparently didn't cause such a issue.

I think my elbow did sometimes rise up slightly as i believe it was mainly in my strong arm.


@Langenschwert Also Book has been ordered as it was sub 瞿10.
For future thought, a tripod is far from necessary (though easy enough to acquire) - you can just prop the phone up on a chair with a book, etc. And if you frame it right, you can even keep your head out of the frame.
 

Dirty Dog

MT Senior Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Messages
20,311
Reaction score
6,818
Location
Pueblo West, CO
(and i dont have face coverings since thats a policy of mine for internet uploads :p)

Wow. Was it some sort of congenital issue, or were you badly burned, or what?

You can still link to videos. This is a friendly site, and nobody will make fun of how you look.
 

wab25

Master Black Belt
Joined
Sep 22, 2017
Messages
1,087
Reaction score
907
I debated about responding here, I wanted to be helpful... but the best way to be helpful here is to be honest and straight forward. Please take this in the helpful way I intend.

I have done TKD for a little bit and dabbled in something else. I got what ever they teach white belts how to punch down apart from remembering to do the hip twists at least. I have done a decent bit of pad work with the most recent one i went to through.

First, I don't think you "got what ever they teach white belts" in terms of punching. If you did, you would not have issues remembering the hip part and you would not have issues with pain in your elbow. Also, if you had an issue and resolved it, you would know why and what you did to resolve it, if you really "got" what they were teaching you. Also, you would have a pretty good punch.

You also have not "done a decent bit of pad work." Look up videos on youtube of Freddy Roach and Manny Pacquiao doing a "decent bit of pad work." Okay, thats a lot to ask, they are quite good. But, doing a decent bit of pad work means, punching correctly to start, hips involved correctly and no elbow pain, while doing combos in flow, with power and accuracy. The issues you describe with the hip twisting and the elbow pain, mean there is no way you could have done "decent pad work." Doing decent pad work takes years of training. (there is a difference in doing pad work and doing decent pad work)

It is important for people to be able to assess where they really are and what they really know. You seem to be throwing away a perfectly valid way to punch, for another, when you clearly have not learned the first. But, you have or had access to an instructor for the first. Having an instructor is way more valuable than any forum, book or video.

One of the dangers here (this is the reason I went ahead and responded here) is that you don't know what you don't know. You found a problem when you were punching the first way. The pain in your elbow. The problem is with the artist, not the art. You could easily buy a book, and teach yourself a "better" punch. But, you won't know whether you are doing it right or not, even if you think you are doing it right. Sometimes, you can do something wrong and not know it, for years. Moving repetitively, in the wrong way can damage your body over time... and you won't know until years later. Joints are easy things to stress incorrectly, and putting all the force of your punch through your joints incorrectly can do damage. (refer to the pain in your elbow... that at least let you know right away that something was wrong)

Your best bet would be to get an instructor. Then learn to punch the way he teaches you. Horizontal or vertical does not matter as much as punching correctly. It will take time. And lots of repetition. There are no short cuts. Nothing can replace a good instructor.

I applaud your enthusiasm. Find an instructor, and train under him. Then share with us what you learn. (I for one have a lot more to learn)
 
OP
D

Deleted member 39746

Guest
For future thought, a tripod is far from necessary (though easy enough to acquire) - you can just prop the phone up on a chair with a book, etc. And if you frame it right, you can even keep your head out of the frame.

Its outside, dont have enough room for a inside punching bag. (plus im a perfectionist)

Wow. Was it some sort of congenital issue, or were you badly burned, or what?

You can still link to videos. This is a friendly site, and nobody will make fun of how you look.

Its more due to it being a open site anyone can access and view videos so i wish to control access to my appearance on open sites. (and other things)

edit: Just thought about DMing it when i figure out how to record it without my face in it and in decent enough quality.

The issues you describe with the hip twisting and the elbow pain, mean there is no way you could have done "decent pad work." Doing decent pad work takes years of training.

Just to clarify, i don't recall feeling any pain post pad work.

Issue i have with instructors is, i have decided i prefer the vertical punch more and i have made it habit to use it when i am in a thinking position and im iffy if some would allow me to essentially skip some levels to mainly use a punch they teach later on. Never know until i express a desire to mainly use it though and ask in regards to it. :p


Thanks for reply never the less. (Kind of got a little jumbly near the end, the context/tone might be off.)
 

Dirty Dog

MT Senior Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Messages
20,311
Reaction score
6,818
Location
Pueblo West, CO
Its more due to it being a open site anyone can access and view videos so i wish to control access to my appearance on open sites. (and other things)

Do you wear a mask when you go outside? There are literally MILLIONS of people out there who might see your face!
 
Top