true or false Ninja history

[sifu Adams]

I have to ask and keep in mind that I have no Ninja background, however I have been told in that if you trace the ninja history back you would find that they were not great fighters like amercan portays them. I was told they had great abilites in steath tach. they were poor fighters so they used the steath to kill their opponet to keep from fighting them. I can see with the all black uniforms and the differant weapons they have to climb, throw, swing, ect.. that this might be true. I am not trying to insult or down grad the system I just would like the oppinon of someone who trained in ninju to inform me if this is true or if their is merrit to this belief?

 

[Shogun]

You are half on the right track from what I know. if you mean poor fighters, as in two go in and brawl, then yes. However, The Ninja had exceptional hand to hand skills, but it was for escaping. remember, Ninja usually were working for a Daimyo, and sometimes carried vital info, or plans to disrupt the enemy's networks. fighting with someone and getting killed would make it hard to deliver messages etc.
I invite the higher ranked Bujinkan Guys to post here and give some better, non-general, info. thats all I can give now.

ps the Ninja techiques of yesteryear are very different in nature from the ones of today.

 

[sifu Adams]

Thanks I can't wait to here some of the history of the system. you said the tech are differnt from yesteryear how so? and How is the Earth-wind-water- fire used in your system. We use them in Hsing I.

 

[Shogun]

I'll let the TSD guys tell you more about the Gogyo and Godai. They are pretty much like this:
Earth - stability
wind - evasive
water - blending
fire - piercing
void - absent (no thought/zero)
was that right.....
I have TSD videos, but I have the classical HSC, with all the Bujinkan material. Love the Shoden level videos. Hey Gmunoz, have you picked up any of the Shoden Montly lessons? great advanced material. They cover modern AND classical.

Later,
Kyle

 

[gmunoz]

I'll let the TSD guys tell you more about the Gogyo and Godai. They are pretty much like this:
Earth - stability
wind - evasive
water - blending
fire - piercing
void - absent (no thought/zero)
was that right.....
I have TSD videos, but I have the classical HSC, with all the Bujinkan material. Love the Shoden level videos. Hey Gmunoz, have you picked up any of the Shoden Montly lessons? great advanced material. They cover modern AND classical.

Later,
Kyle

Oh yeah. The Shoden monthly lessons are great! An-Shu spared no expense when doing this stuff. They cover both the classical technique and modern application. Good stuff.

 

[Enson]

I have to ask and keep in mind that I have no Ninja background, however I have been told in that if you trace the ninja history back you would find that they were not great fighters like amercan portays them. I was told they had great abilites in steath tach. they were poor fighters so they used the steath to kill their opponet to keep from fighting them. I can see with the all black uniforms and the differant weapons they have to climb, throw, swing, ect.. that this might be true. I am not trying to insult or down grad the system I just would like the oppinon of someone who trained in ninju to inform me if this is true or if their is merrit to this belief?

good question... it will be interesting to see the different imput that is given...

you might want to ask in the japanese ninjutsu section. see what those guys have to say about your question too. good luck

peace

 

[heretic888]

however I have been told in that if you trace the ninja history back you would find that they were not great fighters like amercan portays them. I was told they had great abilites in steath tach. they were poor fighters so they used the steath to kill their opponet to keep from fighting them. I can see with the all black uniforms and the differant weapons they have to climb, throw, swing, ect.. that this might be true. I am not trying to insult or down grad the system I just would like the oppinon of someone who trained in ninju to inform me if this is true or if their is merrit to this belief?

I've read some of the Iranki, a historical document detailing the attempted invasion of Iga by Oda Nobuo. Suffice to say, the portrayal of the Iga warriors as "not great fighters" is not what the author(s) seem to have had in mind. They are described as decimating Nobuo's samurai in "shoulder to shoulder" combat. They did make use of surprise attacks and ambushes, though.

The "black uniform" is probably little more than a myth. In any event, a ninja on a battlefields will be considerably different than a ninja on a sabotage mission.

This really should be discussed at the Traditional Ninjutsu forum, though...

 

[Blooming Lotus]

I don't have a high ninjutsu ranking but it is about to become my main focus art and ( being the pedantic historian) I have done an amount of research and discussion on the art and its roots. Because of the age of the system and the system that inspired it, history of exact roots will always be a little dubious and up for contention. I found a link that supports that statement and gives just a little lineage recap . Find it at www.ninjutsu.co.nz/NinjutsuHistory2.htm

Speaking to a native chinese chin na playing cop friend in China a couple of weeks ago, being that history is requirement of their service entry, and he tells me emphatically ( as confirmed through prior discussions elsewhere ) that aside from samurai and sumo , any other art from Japan, was greatly rooted in chinese gongfu systems. According to him and what I 've read elsewhere, the samurai were the only real fighters in Japan for an extremely long time. These men train hard and fight hard and because they had done so for a long time, were obviously typically larger than your av village folk, and in fuedal times the small man, who was largely of farmer caste, was subjected to frequent violent raids on their villages.

When the Japanese came in contact with china and chinese gongfu ( so the story goes ), japanese boy sees some aspects of chinese gongfu he thinks he may be able to take home and adapt to his own needs ( ie:- combatting/ defending against the samurai). I think it is a fairly well understood fact that in lieu of size over your opponent, tatic skill and strategy are extremely crucial factors to victory . Ninjutsu was first widely used by the farmers and the stories about their lack of proficiency may come from the fact as being so poor ( with some measure of thx to the samurai situation) to begin, they had only farming implements to use as weaponary, and alternate strategies needed to be incorperated ( giving birth to the " evasion and espionage " strategies as opposed to direct combat concepts).

I'm sure if you do a good a kaazar or google on it, you'll find alot more information you can come back and share. In the meantime, I look fwd to hearing myself from the higher ranking Bujinkan ninjutsu players.

What are you guys hearing and from what source??

Blooming Lotus

 

[heretic888]

Ninjutsu was first widely used by the farmers and the stories about their lack of proficiency may come from the fact as being so poor ( with some measure of thx to the samurai situation) to begin, they had only farming implements to use as weaponary, and alternate strategies needed to be incorperated ( giving birth to the " evasion and espionage " strategies as opposed to direct combat concepts).

Uhhh.... no.

Again, this should be discussed on the Traditional Ninjutsu forum.

 

[Blooming Lotus]

For crimineys sakes oh heretic one ! Like I said, if you have a different take or version, that's why we have this thread and no doubt we all be happy to hear it and read about it on the links you'll likely be equally happy to share


Xie Xie
BL

 

[heretic888]

For crimineys sakes oh heretic one ! Like I said, if you have a different take or version, that's why we have this thread and no doubt we all be happy to hear it and read about it on the links you'll likely be equally happy to share

I'll be happy to share "my take". In the appropriate format.

What we are talking about here is part of traditional Japanese history, and is not appropriate to the American Ninjutsu forum. That isn't a diss on the AN forum or anything, but this discussion really does belong in the Traditional section.

Laterz. :asian:

 

[Bester]

That is because American Ninjas have little relationship with the real Japanese ones. Where the one has generations of history, knowledge and refinement, the former has but a few years of mix-and-matching with little to no resemblance to the legitimate despite borrowing some weapons, and misunderstood words.

 

[gmunoz]

Yeah, To-Shin Do lineage has no place here!

 

[Bester]

It is probably the only one on the "approved" list that does.

 

[Enson]

I'll be happy to share "my take". In the appropriate format.

What we are talking about here is part of traditional Japanese history, and is not appropriate to the American Ninjutsu forum. That isn't a diss on the AN forum or anything, but this discussion really does belong in the Traditional section.

Laterz. :asian:

if it is regarding the original origins of the ninja then traditional might be the best place for this thread. heretic you might want to start a similar post over there so that way it can be discussed to its full potential.
peace

 

[heretic888]

I believe Mr. Blooming Lotus is already engaging in a thread like that as we speak.

But, to note, its in the general Ninjutsu forum not the Traditional Ninjutsu one.

 

[Blooming Lotus]

That Mr. Blooming Lotus would be a Miss and you're right. I am indeed ..so see you over there.

BL

 

[sojobow]

Speaking to a native chinese chin na playing cop friend in China a couple of weeks ago, being that history is requirement of their service entry, and he tells me emphatically ( as confirmed through prior discussions elsewhere ) that aside from samurai and sumo , any other art from Japan, was greatly rooted in chinese gongfu systems. According to him and what I 've read elsewhere, the samurai were the only real fighters in Japan for an extremely long time. These men train hard and fight hard and because they had done so for a long time, were obviously typically larger than your av village folk, and in fuedal times the small man, who was largely of farmer caste, was subjected to frequent violent raids on their villages.

When the Japanese came in contact with china and chinese gongfu ( so the story goes ), japanese boy sees some aspects of chinese gongfu he thinks he may be able to take home and adapt to his own needs ( ie:- combatting/ defending against the samurai). I think it is a fairly well understood fact that in lieu of size over your opponent, tatic skill and strategy are extremely crucial factors to victory . Ninjutsu was first widely used by the farmers and the stories about their lack of proficiency may come from the fact as being so poor ( with some measure of thx to the samurai situation) to begin, they had only farming implements to use as weaponary, and alternate strategies needed to be incorperated ( giving birth to the " evasion and espionage " strategies as opposed to direct combat concepts).

I'm sure if you do a good a kaazar or google on it, you'll find alot more information you can come back and share. In the meantime, I look fwd to hearing myself from the higher ranking Bujinkan ninjutsu players.

What are you guys hearing and from what source??

Blooming Lotus

My own sources are in general agreement with yours. Wish I would have thought of stating the proposition in a "third person" attitude. I received quite a few red points for saying the same thing in essence.

 

[Blooming Lotus]

I don't really think it matters what person you speak in, sometimes just disagreeing is going to do it. ( btw : pls see bright red spot next to my own post count ) ..whaddya you do ??



cheers



BL

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Oookay, would someone please mind telling me where the "oppressed farmers" theory is supported other than in Stephen Hayes books?