To-Shin Do and the Togakure Ninja Spirit

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Mr. E

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You say that To-Shin Do guys become trolls in the forums, but it's provocative and non-productive arguments like yours that cause said trolls.

If you reread what I posted, I took issue with what you were saying about people in the Bujinkan I consider friends. If you had talked only about Mr Hayes and not tried to build him up by tearing others down, there would be no problem. Think about that please before you post again.

I don't need you to argue with me about some stupid plaque. It is insignificant "to the power of the Force" :) ...I mean, to our training. If it matters to Anshu, then that's his personal issues, but he heads an organization that offers his effective interpretation and translation of the kihon gata, as well as classical shoden and higher gata he was taught by YOUR organization head. Now whether anyone wants to acknowledge Anshu as a student anymore, that's their prerogative, but the fact still remains:

SKH HAS the know-how, HAS the skills, HAS the experience, and HAS the right mindset to head an organization of civil-minded, (for the most part), individuals dedicated to self improvement, self protection, and the protection of others.

Why is his having skills and such "fact?"

Anyone, with any level of martial arts experience is free to start their own style and start teaching. Many people have taken a few lessons and then started their own system. As much as we may disaprove of their actions, they do have the right to do what they want as long as there is no deception.

But your point for this thread was that Mr Hayes was qualified to start his own system in the manner of the Togakure ryu spirit. That is a different manner.

You mentioned, quite a lot, the idea of shu ha ri. Well, are you familiar with the term menkyo kaiden?

For those who do not know, it is a certificate that shows that the person has learned all he can from his teacher in the system.

The first part of shu ha ri is the idea that you perfect the form. Then you go on to do the Ha and Ri sections.

Getting menkyo kaiden from your teacher shows that in his opinion you have reached the point where you know the forms- i.e. "Shu". Mr Hatsumi has given out various menkyo kaiden to his students.

If Mr Hayes does not have MK, then it means that he and not Mr Hatsumi decided that he had the forms down perfect.

Mr Hayes has gone his own way. The soke of the Togakure ryu and the other nine traditions of the Bujinkan is going another way. I do not think ill of Mr Hayes for going in another direction, but if you want to argue that somehow he is qualified to portray what he does as being in the spirit of the Togakure ryu, then please show something like the MK from the soke of the Togakure ryu.

And in any case, please do not post things about how devoted students of Mr Hatsumi that still find new pieces of information, new corrections for previous mistakes, are somehow stupid or otherwise do not understand the true intent of what Mr Hatsumi wishes.
 
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ToShinDoKa

ToShinDoKa

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Ah yes, insults.

Did you read what I said. I said that Mr Hatsumi has said that you can't learn his art from video. That means that you can't learn from video accoriding to him. If you learn from a teacher and video, you are learning from video.



No, it is not. It means to break through and reach a new level of understanding of the lessons. Leaving your teacher is a seperate issue.

And the question really should not be whether someone thinks that they have gotten past the Shu or Ha sections, but rather listen to a person like their teacher to tell them that they have everything they could be taught already down. So you should be talking to Mr Hatsumi about My Hayes in that regard, not Mr Hayes himself.



What insults? You are the one that said that people who still study with Mr Hatsumi are caught in a rut. Have you even trained with one of these folks? Can you give a name? That is pretty insulting.

Saying thay you learn from video courses and don't seem to be saying the same things as Mr Hatsumi is a simple statement of fact. If you want to make judgements about 15 degrees (sic) in the Bujinkan, you should be prepared to let it be known on what experiences your judgements are based.

You equate opinions with judging, I can judge no man...or woman. Understand, when it comes to the Hi process it can involve leaving the way your teacher does things. Sankaku Takeda was teacher to Morihei Ueshiba as well as Shodo Morita. Both of them eventually formulated an art, SEPARATE though SIMILAR with SOME OF THE SAME TECHNIQUES of the original art, done in a way to protect the attacker (in the case of Ueshiba) from their own ignorance.

Sankaku Takeda killed seven men with a sword in self defense, and was raised with samurai heritage. Should he not have been followed to a tee. But, while perhaps not falling out with Takeda, he did ultimately become the creator and headmaster of Aikido. Is he wrong. Do I equate Anshu's skills with Ueshiba's? That's not the issue...besides, you wouldn't like my opinion.

The thing about it is, is that they went away from the teachings of their master directly, and translated the art for their purposes, Shodo Morita-sensei even having Karate and Judo added in! Anshu cannot help it if he felt he got all he needed at the time to begin that path. Perhaps Dr. Hatsumi didn't believe so, perhaps, but it is Anshu's choice, for it is HIS musha shugyo. Not your's to judge, not the Bujinkan, not anyone but him. He found something, we like it. I'm sticking to it, and will continue to talk about the similarities between what I've seen and done in the ABD compared to To-Shin Do...so get over it...please. :)

Dvd and instructor is considered just Dvd instruction...bull hockey! Let's not play a game of semantics, I'm a law student...I'll win. This is useless. I appreciate your opinion, and since you deny everything even when multiple posters provided you with multiple sources, you show me you're being unreasonable. I won't try to reason with the unreasonable...my time could be spent lurnin' fwom dim DVDs!:banghead:
 

Mr. E

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The thing about it is, is that they went away from the teachings of their master directly, and translated the art for their purposes, Shodo Morita-sensei even having Karate and Judo added in!

And they had menkyo kaiden IIRC. And they did not try to really use their teacher's reputation or system for what they did. There is a lot of stuff by Morihei Ueshiba on his art. It is hard to find any mention of him talking about how it was a continuation of what he had learned from his teacher. He treated is as something totally seperate.

Anshu cannot help it if he felt he got all he needed at the time to begin that path. Perhaps Dr. Hatsumi didn't believe so, perhaps, but it is Anshu's choice, for it is HIS musha shugyo.

That is not the issue. I am one who follows his own path in my own way. When I train in one art, I am that arts student as best I can. When I go to another school, I train in that as well I can. But on my own, what I do is ultimately my own.

No, the issue is the idea that by leaving his teacher before he received some sort of proof that he had learned all he could about Togakure ryu, etc, and then use this leaving as some sort of proof that he knew better than those still studying. Mr Hatsumi is the soke of Togakure ryu ninjutsu. If anyone knows what is the spirit and direction and student using that name should follow, it would be him. So if you use the Togakure ryu spirit as part of your reasoning, then clearly Mr Hatsumi and his opinions of Mr Hayes skill also becomes part of the discussion.

Again, Morihei Ueshiba got menkyo kaiden from his teacher and then went off and totally broke off to do something else.

Mr Hayes did not receive the same amount of skill from his teacher and still seems to use the name and such in many ways.

If you treat Toshindo as something totally seperate from Bujinkan and do not try to compare Bujinkan unfavorably with what you do, then there will be no problem. But the very title of this thread shows that you think that it is not some bold new direction and that Mr Hayes knows more about what Mr Hatsumi wants than those with far more knowledge and experience than him in the Bujinkan. Do you not see just how egotistically insulting that is?
 

Michael Stinson

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Probably regret sticking my head in but....

It was pointed out that Mr. Hayes never publically speaks ill of those that speak ill of him. I would highly recommend that other To-Shin Do practitioners look to this example and learn from it...not merely use it as an example for an endless argument that has little point.

I actually agree with Mr. Es point concerning the method of insulting/degrading something to bring something else to light. We have no need to tear anyone down or disrespect anothers path to speak proudly of our own. What we do speaks for itself and shines bright enough on its own. For those that are on a different path more power to them and best wishes. The need to be 'right' in these discussions causes more difficulty for ALL of us and makes us ALL look bad.

Bah...its 3:30am...thus endeth the sermon :p

Michael Stinson
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Brian R. VanCise

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Probably regret sticking my head in but....

It was pointed out that Mr. Hayes never publically speaks ill of those that speak ill of him. I would highly recommend that other To-Shin Do practitioners look to this example and learn from it...not merely use it as an example for an endless argument that has little point.

I actually agree with Mr. Es point concerning the method of insulting/degrading something to bring something else to light. We have no need to tear anyone down or disrespect anothers path to speak proudly of our own. What we do speaks for itself and shines bright enough on its own. For those that are on a different path more power to them and best wishes. The need to be 'right' in these discussions causes more difficulty for ALL of us and makes us ALL look bad.

Bah...its 3:30am...thus endeth the sermon :p

Michael Stinson
Phoenix Quest Center

Michael this is a very good post and I am sure that we all appreciate your comments above.
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I hope that you will contribute more here in the future.
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Since the origional OP wanted to talk about the spirit that infuses To Shin Do training let us continue on from there as the topic.
 
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ToShinDoKa

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I will endeavor to return back to the topic...it's just hard when you're being undercut in your intention to speak positively about your art. I didn't feel my initial post undercut anyone, but if it did, it wasn't intentional. I don't feel the magic in this topic that I originally did. I'm done with it. :disgust:
 

alfyed11

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Perfect. Once again, "Mr E" annoys someone into submission when they talk about an art that he isn't involved in.

Mr E, why are you on the Bujinkan and To-Shin Do threads again? You're protecting the integrity of some "friends" that you have training in these arts?

It really does look like you dislike SKH -- and I don't have a vested interest either way. I know you disagree, but it certainly does look that way!

- Your pal, Al
 

SKB

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Mr. Stinson,

You are right. I know it does no good to "play" with some folks and the argument is silly........ I just don't like to watch someone try and "run over" another guy for no reason! Sooner or later I'll get tired of responding to these folks!!!!!!! Or maybe they will get tired of bringing up the same old stuff over and over and over again??????? Bet I get tired first!!!!
 

bydand

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Mr. Stinson,

You are right. I know it does no good to "play" with some folks and the argument is silly........ I just don't like to watch someone try and "run over" another guy for no reason! Sooner or later I'll get tired of responding to these folks!!!!!!! Or maybe they will get tired of bringing up the same old stuff over and over and over again??????? Bet I get tired first!!!!

I'm not taking the bet I put in bold letters.
Some people seem to have an affinity for posting the same darn thing 425 different ways in half a million posts.
 
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ToShinDoKa

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You know, even in the face of this opposition, (whatever the stance), to allow my original purpose to be dissuaded would be an act against what I study for. My

BUDO NO ARIKATA

Today I went to the archives of Anshu's Densho, and pondered over what was written when the internet rumors of his expulsion surfaced. Now, I personally could care less at this time whether they're true or not, that's not my point, my point lies at the end of his message.

"
Meanwhile, use this time of confusion to re-dedicate your practice to the highest of ideals. You know why you are training. You know what your goals are. You know what your greatest challenges are. Train diligently and sincerely so that by the end of each day, you are a little closer to being the tatsujin "person of actualized perfection" that you strive to become. Find the teachers that inspire you to greatness, and seek out training partners that bring out your best. Do not allow negative people to distract you. Jealous ones may plot to demean your hard-earned success. Fearful ones may scheme to avoid your intimidating skill. But you persevere nonetheless. Nin-po Ik-kan is the way you must live - embodying "consistent warrior training" no matter what obstacles come along that day." -Stephen K. Hayes

I'm not sure about the rest of my To-Shin Do Buyu, but I see unprecedented humility and martial wisdom in these words. This wouldn't have been the first time I've read them, but it is most certainly the first time I've truly understood them.
 
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ToShinDoKa

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You know, even in the face of this opposition, (whatever the stance), to allow my original purpose to be dissuaded would be an act against what I study for. My

BUDO NO ARIKATA
Or my "Purpose for Martial Arts Training"...which is:

Hoko Tomeru! Which are the two kanji that comprise the Japanese word Bu or Martial Arts. These two words mean to Prevent Conflict.

Today I went to the archives of Anshu's Densho, and pondered over what was written when the internet rumors of his expulsion surfaced. Now, I personally could care less at this time whether they're true or not, that's not my point, my point lies at the end of his message.

"
Meanwhile, use this time of confusion to re-dedicate your practice to the highest of ideals. You know why you are training. You know what your goals are. You know what your greatest challenges are. Train diligently and sincerely so that by the end of each day, you are a little closer to being the tatsujin "person of actualized perfection" that you strive to become. Find the teachers that inspire you to greatness, and seek out training partners that bring out your best. Do not allow negative people to distract you. Jealous ones may plot to demean your hard-earned success. Fearful ones may scheme to avoid your intimidating skill. But you persevere nonetheless. Nin-po Ik-kan is the way you must live - embodying "consistent warrior training" no matter what obstacles come along that day." -Stephen K. Hayes

I'm not sure about the rest of my To-Shin Do Buyu, but I see unprecedented humility and martial wisdom in these words. This wouldn't have been the first time I've read them, but it is most certainly the first time I've truly understood them.

It inspires me how, even in the face of the possibility of being rejected by one's own teacher, and even in the face of those (whoever they were) who would ridicule him for taking steps to promote a ninja tradition he loved and believed in, he stayed ever mature and vigilant. He, while some would easily focus on defending themselves, truly demonstrated the NIN in ninja and endured such persecution, focusing instead on keeping his students or practitioners in general, focused on self improvement. Truly, IMHO, the ninja spirit.
 

Kreth

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Jealous ones may plot to demean your hard-earned success. Fearful ones may scheme to avoid your intimidating skill.
Perhaps if you don't want people commenting negatively about your teacher, then it would be best not to post something where he hints that anyone offering a counterpoint to his official story is "jealous" or "fearful."
In other words, don't complain about a flamewar while you stand by with a gas can.
 

bydand

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Have to agree with Kreth on this one. Sure I train To-Shin-Do, but am getting tired of finding nothing those who are new to the art online, and still at that Honeymoon stage in training. I like the art, I like the skill sets taught, I get tired of the whole "party line" that is tossed around online. Train, train in what you like, train with whom you like and respect; but I don't try to push who I train under on those who choose not to train with them, I just wish most others in the same art could do the same.
 
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ToShinDoKa

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Have to agree with Kreth on this one. Sure I train To-Shin-Do, but am getting tired of finding nothing those who are new to the art online, and still at that Honeymoon stage in training. I like the art, I like the skill sets taught, I get tired of the whole "party line" that is tossed around online. Train, train in what you like, train with whom you like and respect; but I don't try to push who I train under on those who choose not to train with them, I just wish most others in the same art could do the same.


Byband, I'm going to ask you an honest and sincere question and use very small words:

Can You Not Read?

This is a Stephen K. Hayes thread, about...guess who...Stephen K. Hayes. It's about HIS art and HIS practicing students. That was a Stephen K. Hayes quote, and a true one. It is good advice. He did not demean any group or organization.

There are jealous people in the world, and they'll say what they like. I'm not breaking any rules quoting my teacher, and could care less, HONESTLY, what you think of new To-Shin Do practitioners, sir. Perhaps your spirit isn't in this art, don't harp on me because mine is. Agree with Kreth, but Anshu didn't insult any organization or person.

I must say, I don't give a flying Fudo Ken what you think of me because I'm actually proud of what I study. If you don't like me talking nicely about Anshu, don't look at this topic, and join a different thread, sir. :angel:
 

bydand

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You know what, this is the exact response I thought you would have.

I know what the thread is about, I know what section it is in. I have been practicing the art for a LONG time now and think the enthusiasm of new students is a good thing. Getting defensive whenever somebody says anything that may not be glowing about Hayes is ridicules, he is a man just like the rest of us. He has some very, very good skills and I am happy to learn them from him or others under him. Am I knocking new To-Shin-Do students? NO, I'm making an observation that for the most part is upheld by responses like the one above. Do I think all new students are like this? NO, I happen to train at a dojo where everybody is only a couple of years, or months into the art, and I love it. The spirit is fantastic, and the enthusiasm is great. I feel this is what will be needed to keep the art going and growing.

Do not "yell" at me online for expressing an opinion. I never said I didn't like somebody talking nicely about Hayes, I implied it was common for new students to get defensive over statement they think is negative about Hayes and start flaming others. See above post for example.
 

bydand

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Must say though, 20 posts into your time here on MT and the true nature shines through.:waah:
 
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ToShinDoKa

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Must say though, 20 posts into your time here on MT and the true nature shines through.

Funny, sir...truly a To Shin Do Role Model.

I didn't yell, for there were not exclamation points. Big letters draw attention...pay attention:

I never claimed Anshu was a god, but he is a martial arts role model. I just don't understand what your saying. To me, it seems like you're riding the fence, and just don't understand such people. Riding the fence on your opinion that is, and so it's hard to respond to, sir...so I won't.

What I will do, is continue to post, promoting my art, teachers, and experiences in said are, and with said teachers. HOPEFULLY, that won't be TOO Honeymoon (whatever that means) for you, SIR.

:waah:? ... ... ...:lol:

-Scott
Proud To-Shin Do
 

theletch1

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"Netiquette" dictates that using all caps is the same as raising your voice in a face to face conversation. Same with using a much larger font. Yes, it does draw attention but it comes across as yelling. Now, since my post doesn't have anything to do with the reason for the thread I'll digress but wanted to inteject the bit about "netiquette" to try to avoid further confrontation due to such a simple matter as font size.
 
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ToShinDoKa

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"Netiquette" dictates that using all caps is the same as raising your voice in a face to face conversation. Same with using a much larger font. Yes, it does draw attention but it comes across as yelling. Now, since my post doesn't have anything to do with the reason for the thread I'll digress but wanted to inteject the bit about "netiquette" to try to avoid further confrontation due to such a simple matter as font size.


Wow...netiquette? Indeed? Well, I learn something new every day.

Well yes, back to my EVERSO PREDICTABLE (and yes I'm yelling...no one specific, though) responses.

Anshu is lord and master of all that's in existence...:lol:
Bow before him or face the wrath of his unquestionable authenticity!...:lol:

But seriously, I think Anshu's stance, despite recent events, has been notable. Lesser ones of lesser patience, like myself, would do well to follow such an example.

You may not question me, for my logic is undeniable! :lol:

-Scott
proud (and apparently over zealous) To Shin Do Student
 
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