To-Shin Do and the Togakure Ninja Spirit

[ToShinDoKa]

The fact is hard to deny that many originally found the Bujinkan, To-Shin Do, the other X-kans and so on, for not only the effective self defense but also their association with the mysterious ninja of old Japan.

I mean seriously, in my old ABD curriculum, during the kyu ranks you learned everything from Nobori Kata to kihon Shukojutsu. Not as much emphasis was put on the taijutsu, though. I mean, during the first belt rank, you learned how to do ONE punch and chi no kata. For that matter, you learned to do it from shizen and weren't taught a defensive kamae. Now although one punch can be used in many ways, HONESTLY, do you think a white belt, straight off the press, will be able to have the capacity to learn all the beneficial aways to use Fudo within this level. I wasn't. Nonetheless, after I was done with the Mountains of Strength curriculum, I was confident I would be able to defend myself against your average, drunken or street mean un-armed aggressor.

So maybe the effectiveness of Anshu's art isn't the issue...perhaps because it has seemed to stray TOO FAR from what the Bujinkan deems appropriate, and ultimately ninja. But is this truly the case. I've read COUNTLESS interviews with Hatsumi-sensei speaking on what the true essence of the ninja is, and seen many Bujinkan practitioner's views, far before I even considered taking the art. Remember, I studied Bujinkan before I even HEARD of Stephen K. Hayes, and at one time had a prejudice against him ENCOURAGED from my Bujinkan associates, because of him STRAYING so far from the path.

Hatsumi-sensei once said that the best example of ninja spirit he's seen in American media was the "Ninja Turtles." I found that BEYOND amusing, when I first heard it, and brushed it off as a joke, until I watched their movies again, and it hit me. What he must've been speaking on was the will to protect others and yet be completely anonymous about it. The ability to empathize with common society, and blend in with them when necessary. The ability to realize the strength in your comrades, your team, your ninja family, and how everyone has something of value to bring to the table.

Many claim that Anshu has strayed from the path, but from what I've observed, he's only went to the next step. There's a belief, a process if you will, common in Japanese martial arts, specifically ko ryu. This principle is called Shu-Ha-Ri.

We are made RATHER familiar with it in Eishin ryu Iaijutsu (the FIRST Katana drawing art). The principle is defined as follows:

SHU: The beginning of your training. You stick to the specific guidelines of your sensei, taking in their knowledge and wisdom, experience and technical know-how, and you mimick, learn, and absorb it. The perfect student. The perfect apprentice.

HA: Now you're a teacher. You are of significant status and rank, and you've acquire many skills, but you are still teaching under your sensei's shadow, allowing him to still dictate your curriculum's major needs, and trying your utmost to stick closely by it. You're not a master yet, close, but not one yet, and there's much more you have to learn.

RI: Here's the scary one. Here's where you leave mom and dad at home and pursue your own life, so to speak. Now, you are a master, a senior one, at that, and you have the same experience your master had when he first taught you. Your master's advice will ALWAYS be valuable, and you will seek it until his or her passing and remember it afterward, but you are to dictate, translate, and update the teachings of the old to fit the problems of the new. Are they completely different techniques...some may look like it, but they hold the same principles, and that's what counts, what keeps it NINJA!

Soke Hatsumi once said during an interview:

[SIZE=+1]"The tradition in martial arts has always been to make progress, to adapt to the period in which it was practiced so it becomes more efficient and more practical." (An Interview between Bujinkan practitioner Bernard Bordas 10th dan, and Hatsumi-sensei).

Apparently many missed this lesson, because they on Anshu, when he decided to take that next step in his training, and transcend into the endless realm of Ri, becoming legend! Many 15 degrees sadly are still stuck in the Ha, and seem self-bound to die there without progressing. Their names will carry on ONLY with those who were personal friends, and their variations and knowledge will never be accredited to their HARD WORK, though they may deserve said recognition for years of service and study. Anshu seemed not to be will to stop learning and growing, and so he took that scary step, but he has FAR from strayed. Even his contemporary basics pervade the classical teachings of Koto ryu and Gyokko ryu.

The main Earth stability punch defenses are based off of Yoku-to and Ko-yoku of Koto ryu Koppojutsu. The back collar grabbing attack is based off of Yubi Kudaki of Gyokko ryu Kosshijutsu. Koto ryu's Bobi no Kamae is taught, with variations practical for self defense of our time, Hicho for the kick defense, as well as the other kamae: ichimonji, both Gyokko & Koto, and Doko for Waves of Power, Jumonji and Hoko primarily for Lightning Strikes, Hira no kamae dominates Eye of the Storm curriculum.

He also requires some classical training too, as well as weapons traditionally used, and some modern henka-variations. Truly the best of both worlds... But, even with all that, he encourages the ninja mindset. Hattori Hanzo, Momochi Sandayu, Daisuke Togakure, Kotaro Fuma, Ishikawa Goemon, Sarutobi Sasuke...and the list continues...all, for reasons good or bad, are LEGENDS for their contributions...some may not even be real, others were but accomplished unreal feats or heroism! He encourages the brave, enduring attitude of the Ninja legends of old, and during the last seminar at Mountain Quest, taught us that our training developed heroes. The ninja past were HEROES. Villains to some, but to others, saver of lives. The truly great ones, you'll NEVER know about, but their accomplishments call to us from the shadows. Anshu's training embodies becoming that which the Japanese Ninja have been for many of us who pursued Ninpo from 2 to 20 years ago...the heroism, and so is why, EVEN WITHOUT the approval of senior Japanese instructors, or Hatsumi himself, I follow Anshu's teachings, for such teaches are the ones of legend.

"[/SIZE][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The vast universe, beautiful in its coldly impersonal totality, contains all that we call good or bad, all the answers for all the paradoxes we see around us. By opening his eyes and his mind, the Ninja can responsively follow the subtle seasons and reasons of heaven, changing just as change is necessary, adapting always, so that in the end there is no such thing as a surprise for the Ninja." -Takamatsu Toshitsugu-den

[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When will we finally he'd this last living ninja's wise words, and realize the road blocks we set up for ourselves from jealousy?

-Scott T. Ealey
Proud To-Shin Do Practitioner
[/FONT]

 

[Mr. E]

Apparently many missed this lesson, because they on Anshu, when he decided to take that next step in his training, and transcend into the endless realm of Ri, becoming legend! Many 15 degrees sadly are still stuck in the Ha, and seem self-bound to die there without progressing.

Do you realize just how insulting this is?

You are a blue belt who pretty much learned all he knows from video courses. For someone like you to comment on how people with decades more experience are stuck in something and just don't get it strikes me as being both egotistical and silly.

I happen to have more than one person I call friend who is a "15 degrees" (sic) in the Bujinkan.

Take a look at how they might view things.

Does anyone know more about ninjutsu that Masaaki Hatsumi of the Bujinkan? Please, show your hands! Let us see who wants to announce that they know more than Mr Hatsumi!

For those who don't think that they know more than Mr Hatsumi, it would seem logical to try to find out more from those more knowledgable. To do otherwise, to decide yourself that you know enough to go off on your own and that you do not need any more instruction, probably strikes them as being a bit egotistical.

If Mr Hatsumi gives them something like Menkyo Kaiden then it shows that he thinks you are ready to go off on your own. If you lack that, then by going off on your own you are saying you know better than your teacher on what you need to learn. Try letting the kids in high school choose what they will learn and see what happens.

Mr Hatsumi is not going to be around forever. In fact, he is declining pretty fast. Compare pictures from just a year ago to the most recent ones and you can see the difference. Any chance you might have to learn from him may not exist in a few years, maybe months. Someday you will have to live without the guidence, experience and direction he can give you. But before that day comes, there is still stuff you can learn and experience from him.

You will have to do your own thing at some point. But for now you have to chance to learn from someone who has more knowledge and experience than you. Those guys you are insulting probably just think that they can put off doing their own thing for as long as possible and for right now swollow their ego and just learn all they can while they have the chance.

 

[ToShinDoKa]

You equate belt rank in one martial artwith experience in the martial arts. Shu Ha Ri applies to many arts, and though it seemed as if I were saying it, such has been the opinion of many who've trained outside the Bujinkan. Perhaps I should've included a disclaimer that many of my seeming opinions are merely those I've heard and leaned more towards, for they seemed educated.

I don't claim, nor boast to have anywhere NEAR the experience of these Shihan. Throughout my post, I made sure to not discredit them for their schools nor experience, in itself. Nonetheless, as an American, with freedom of speech, I have the right to my observations. And I must say, looking outside in to the Ninpo community, the insults given from some of these masters of high degree truly lower my sense of respect for them. NOT ONCE have I read an article, nor in person, heard Stephen K. Hayes insult them, yet COUNTLESS times have I been on forums to where specific teachers, (names I respectfully know but will not lower myself to throw out there), insult Anshu outwardly, showing no respect for his experience, and pioneering work.

I've stated what I and others have observed, and while I welcome your debate, I do NOT, your reproof. If you feel I've insulted anyone, understand it was not intentional, just voicing my opinion like everyone else does here (I've read MUCH of the less savory, and yet unchallenged opinions of some BBT members and associates).

While you insult my way of learning, I have done so because I've found it to be FAR better than what some OTHER schools of Authentic Ninpo offer. This, too, is my opinion, and to take it, or this entire entry, as well as well as the previous, as an insult, is merely an exercise in futility, for there are none written or intended.

I'd like to apologize if my rebuttal seems a little harsh. As I said, I am only stating my opinion, and never claimed anyone knew more than Hatsumi sensei...if I did, than why would I quote him? Your argument makes no sense. I only stated that Anshu took the steps which Hatsumi-sensei, at the time of that interview, said were essential to an effective martial art, and have observed others who stick close to Hatsumi-sensei (which there's nothing wrong with that in itself) but the fact is Anshu shouldn't be insulted because he LISTENED to his teacher, and made it effective! How many other teachers of the BBT have worked with the NSA, the Dalai Lama, or are in the Black Belt Hall of Fame...few if any, that's your answer. Methinks, that counts for something...

Once again, these are things I've observed, and you can bet your black belt (assuming you have one, by the way you feel you can reprove me) that I never claimed anyone had more knowledge of Budo Taijutsu than Dr. Hatsumi, so stop incorrectly paraphrasing my opinions, please! It's called slander.

 

[SKB]

Toshindoka,

Glad to hear your thoughts on this and other subjects! I agree with alot of what you said! So folks have diffrent thoughts and you just have to roll with them. I look forward to more post from you.

 

[Mr. E]

As I said, I am only stating my opinion, and never claimed anyone knew more than Hatsumi sensei...if I did, than why would I quote him?

Lets look at that quote.

"The tradition in martial arts has always been to make progress, to adapt to the period in which it was practiced so it becomes more efficient and more practical."

Now where the heck does that state that you should leave your teacher and do your own thing? There are many skilled people in the Bujinkan who have made what they do practical, even included firearms, and yet still go to learn more every year.

And yet you said,

Many 15 degrees sadly are still stuck in the Ha, and seem self-bound to die there without progressing.

Seriously, how on earth would someone like yourself be able to know that sort of thing? Your thinking seems to be 180 degrees from Mr Hatsumi. He says you can't learn his art from video. You say it is better than your other options of a real school.

The simple fact is that Mr Hayes decided that he was good enough to go out on his own and he needed no more real imput from his teacher. If you like what he does, knockyourself out. But Mr Hatsumi ordered Mr Hayes' name taken from the board and said he does not care if people call it hamon.

It is insulting to say that Mr Hayes is doing what Mr Hatsumi really wants while those people still going to train with Mr Hatsumi do not. You insult those still trying to learn with what you write.

If you want to praise Mr Hayes, leave any comparison with Bujinkan members out of it. Tearing down others to build up another is not the way to have a friendly conversation.

 

[Sukerkin]

Whilst not badly written, I do think that perhaps taking a little longer to settle before putting out 'cage rattling' posts might've been a good idea Tosh.

I know that it easy to overlook the fact that an internet fora is a community and take the view that you have a right to express your opinion but that does not invalidate the truth of a place like MartialTalk actually being a public place where many meet and mingle.

I have some strong views on the Cult of the Ninja and of some of Hatsumi Sensei's assertions but, because expressing those views would do nothing other than annoy people here who I have respect for, I keep them to myself.

Is this an infringement of my freedom of speach? Yes, it certainly is and it makes me grit my teeth on occaison. However, entering into an emotive argument that you cannot win is a venture that has to be carefuly assessed to see if the 'fallout' is a price worth paying.

Don't get me wrong, sometimes it is worth the upset if you can make a difference in the way people think about something but, most of the time, on the Net, all you achieve is to make 'virtual' enemies.

The best you can do is state what you believe, make it known that you know that this is just your opinion, supported by whatever evidence you have, and accept that others opinions will differ. If you can (in the academic sense of the word) argue the point calmly then good threads can result - the slightest hint of name-calling or personal denigration tho' will reduce a thread to tatters quicker than you can say "Nazi!".

I hope that that's more than just my tuppence worth and that a member with your obvious flair for the written word can accept it as not bad advice for a productive future on the fora.

 

[SKB]

The simple fact is that Mr Hayes decided that he was good enough to go out on his own and he needed no more real imput from his teacher.

I might be wrong but I think Mr. Hayes still keeps in touch with Mr. Hatsumi?

http://www.skhquest.com/densho_2006.php

2004 I think

Tuesday, May 23, 2006
"Just weeks ago, Rumiko and I had a delightful time training and speaking with Hatsumi Sensei in Japan. Hatsumi Sensei will always be "my sensei" and as always, I accord him my highest respect and gratitude for all he has shared with me."

Not sure if this counts as staying in touch?

If you like what he does, knockyourself out.

Myself and others plan on it.

Sukerkin is right about how these things can go south quickly!!! heheheheeh

 

[bydand]

Oh lordy, here we go. Pass the popcorn please.opcorn::cheers:

I'm keeping to the sidelines on this one, seen too many of these discussions head down the toilet to actually get sucked into it.

 

[Mr. E]

I might be wrong but I think Mr. Hayes still keeps in touch with Mr. Hatsumi?

Yes, you are wrong.

You might want to check your Anshu's web site. It says that over a year ago he sent off a letter to Mr Hatsumi about the story of his name being taken down. Since that time there has been no announcement of a response and explanation. If there had, it is pretty sure there would be a mention of it.

Anyone who knows a bit about Asian cultures would know that a lack of response in this case is a very large statement in itself. For someone to get a frantic letter from a student about how he has heard that he has been kicked out and not respond for over a year tells volumes.

And it has been done to death here. Check some of the locked threads. See what Bydand is talking about. Try to find someone not in Toshindo but with experience in Japan that feels the same way you do about the matter.

 

[ToShinDoKa]

Correction Mr. E. I said that I can learn Anshu Hayes' art by dvd AND real instruction...you should listen better.

Once again, the Japanese Ri principle IS TO LEAVE YOUR TEACHER! That's what it's about, being independent. Not forsaking what he or she taught you, but translating it yourself. How do I know of this principle? I am a Ko ryu practitioner, Mr. E. and the Shu Ha Ri is the most important outline for our Musha Shugyo. I advise you calm your insults, sir, they're unnecessary. I never tore down your art. TIME AND TIME AND TIME AND TIME AGAIN I HAVE COMPLIMENTED IT so get off of my case and stop causing trouble. Voice your opinion sir, but if you insult my knowledge of things I've been taught by apparently far more unbiased people than yourself, I will no longer acknowledge your existence, and carry on posting for ones who have sense about them.

Remember, this is the To-Shin Do section, buddy, take your politics elsewhere...please

 

[ToShinDoKa]

Perhaps you're right, Sukerkin. I just expected to admire a martial arts living legend in a thread that's based on him WITHOUT having to worry about antagonizers. I've politely reasoned with Mr. E., but for his age, if the avatar's any indication, he's not acting very mature...oooo perhaps I shouldn't have said that...oh well. I might be done with this topic, and I promise to be MORE careful when acknowledging the accomplishments of my organization head. I KNOW that To-Shin Do isn't Bujinkan. I don't argue that. But if Mr. E.'s attitude represents his organization, then I'm also glad it's not. THIS IS MY OPINION AND I WILL NOT RECANT.

 

[SKB]

Bydand, these are so much fun!!!! I get to train even here!!!!! (now don't tell my uke I'm going to get windy-ish right now)

Yes, you are wrong.

Sunday, April 23, 2006
"Rumiko and I rode the trains to Noda City for training at Masaaki Hatsumi’s Bujinkan Hombu dojo on a rainy Sunday afternoon. It was a nostalgic feeling to walk the streets of Noda once again, and......"

I must be wrong but that sounds like they were in the same room? On your comment about me being just wrong I guess...... kind of rude, for someone who presses the rules of this forum on other folks so much, is it not, to just call me wrong like that? Plus I got to thinking.......... (can you see the pain this caused me?)........ maybe what is or is not going on between Mr. Hatsumi and Mr. Hayes is none of our business? For someone who points out all these parts of the culture over there you seem to forget some........ at least I think it is one? The senior person does not have to exsplain to the junior why they do something, right? And would not they "lose face" if they put all of their issues out in the open for everyone? I could be wrong?????? Also why do you spend some mush time in this area and the ones used by the Bujikan guys? For someone who claims to not even study the art you spend a lot of time discussing it??? (and now with no effort I move around the uke, do as I wish and bait him for his next attack, but don't tell him)

 

[bydand]

Bydand, these are so much fun!!!! I get to train even here!!!!! (now don't tell my uke I'm going to get windy-ish right now)



(and now with no effort I move around the uke, do as I wish and bait him for his next attack, but don't tell him)

Very smooth, I can see some of Tori's movement rubbing off on you. :lfao:

 

[SKB]

Very smooth, I can see some of Tori's movement rubbing off on you. :lfao:

GOOD EYE!!!! But shhhhhh don't tell him!!!!

 

[alfyed11]

I don't believe "Mr. E" is in the Bunjinkan, based on past experience, and I'm not sure why he is involved in these threads at all.

Mr E, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm kind of curious about this myself. Why are you posting on these threads at all? The most I've been able to get from your previous posts is your witty prose and a dislike for SKH.

- Al. Yes, Al

 

[MJS]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sho...d.php?p=427486. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

-Mike Slosek
-MT Asst. Admin-

 

[Mr. E]

Correction Mr. E. I said that I can learn Anshu Hayes' art by dvd AND real instruction...you should listen better.

Ah yes, insults.

Did you read what I said. I said that Mr Hatsumi has said that you can't learn his art from video. That means that you can't learn from video accoriding to him. If you learn from a teacher and video, you are learning from video.

Once again, the Japanese Ri principle IS TO LEAVE YOUR TEACHER!

No, it is not. It means to break through and reach a new level of understanding of the lessons. Leaving your teacher is a seperate issue.

And the question really should not be whether someone thinks that they have gotten past the Shu or Ha sections, but rather listen to a person like their teacher to tell them that they have everything they could be taught already down. So you should be talking to Mr Hatsumi about My Hayes in that regard, not Mr Hayes himself.

I advise you calm your insults, sir, they're unnecessary.

What insults? You are the one that said that people who still study with Mr Hatsumi are caught in a rut. Have you even trained with one of these folks? Can you give a name? That is pretty insulting.

Saying thay you learn from video courses and don't seem to be saying the same things as Mr Hatsumi is a simple statement of fact. If you want to make judgements about 15 degrees (sic) in the Bujinkan, you should be prepared to let it be known on what experiences your judgements are based.

 

[Mr. E]

I've politely reasoned with Mr. E., but for his age, if the avatar's any indication, he's not acting very mature...oooo perhaps I shouldn't have said that...oh well.

An insult concealed as a complaint about insults. And you really don't know why I am laughing my head off in my tardis about what you wrote about my avatar.

But then again, maybe that is showing my age.

 

[Mr. E]

Bydand, these are so much fun!!!! I get to train even here!!!!! (now don't tell my uke I'm going to get windy-ish right now)



Sunday, April 23, 2006
"Rumiko and I rode the trains to Noda City for training at Masaaki Hatsumi’s Bujinkan Hombu dojo on a rainy Sunday afternoon. It was a nostalgic feeling to walk the streets of Noda once again, and......"

I must be wrong but that sounds like they were in the same room?

One session, over a year ago, and Mr Hatsumi has refused to answer any letters from him since then.

So your comment about,

I might be wrong but I think Mr. Hayes still keeps in touch with Mr. Hatsumi?

is not correct. Mr Hatsumi ordered that Mr Hayes' name be removed from the board of Bujinkan teachers. There has been no contact between the two since then, no letters even. Before that, there was a single session in 2004 I believe.

Plus I got to thinking.......... (can you see the pain this caused me?)........ maybe what is or is not going on between Mr. Hatsumi and Mr. Hayes is none of our business?

So why did you bring it up? I didn't. I just responded.

But if Mr Hatsumi thought that the matter was only between him and Mr Hayes, why did he ask to have Mr Hayes' name removed from the board in full view of everyone? Why did he ask certain people to let that news get out?

Seriously, there is so many mistaken assumptions in your posts that I do not know where to start. I do not mean to insult Mr Hayes, but it is a fact that that he decided himself that he had all he had to know before he moved off on his own and that seems not to be the opinion of Mr Hatsumi. If he had problems with what Mr Hatsumi taught and thus went on his own path, I could understand that. But to somehow say that leaving his teacher to fill his teacher's desire strikes me as very, very odd.

One thing you might try to explain to me.... I have noticed that a lot of Toshindo practicioners had the attitude that all the stories about Mr Hayes being on Mr Hatsumi's bad side and that Mr Hatsumi did not want people to train with Mr Hayes should be ignored unless there was some sort of public announcement.

Then, when the name was taken down at Mr Hatsumi's orders, there seems to be a lot of posts by Toshindo people taking Mr Hatsumi to task for making a public statement instead of letting Mr Hayes know outside of the public eye. And, of course we really do not know if Mr Hatsumi let it be known directly prior to the hamon that he was not pleased with what Mr Hayes was doing.

And now of course you are saying that what happens between the two are none of our concern.

Which is it? Because it seems that the story seems to change as the situation does. It really seems that some people were betting that Mr Hatsumi would act like a typical Japanese person and not air bad relations in public. When things hit the public, there was attacks on Mr Hatsumi and calls from people to just disregard everything you hear and keep training until Mr Hayes tells you differently. If we should not be conerned with what goes on between the two, why does one of them try to make such a big deal of using the others image and name on his site?

Oh, and Al- please read my first post in this thread. You assume I have a dislike of Mr Hayes. But my real concern is that I have several people I call friend who are the highest rank in the Bujinkan and still train every chance they get with Mr Hatsumi. I take issue with the insult that my friends who still train with Mr Hatsumi have less of an understanding based on the observations of a DVD black belt course blue belt.

 

[ToShinDoKa]

:wink2: So you caught that...well it was kind of obvious. Sorry, Mr. E., I was just having fun. The purpose of the post was to show the bad blood between our two separate (gladly so) organizations.

You say that To-Shin Do guys become trolls in the forums, but it's provocative and non-productive arguments like yours that cause said trolls. I mean, seriously, I'm not sure about To-Shin Do practitioners in this internet community, but as far as what was presented to us and what 'I' too willingly, & happily accept, is that Anshu "Hermitage Head" or "Ordained One" is our organization's leader. It's Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi's Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, and quite separately SKH Visionary Ninja Art of Self Protection, To-Shin Do.

I don't need you to argue with me about some stupid plaque. It is insignificant "to the power of the Force" ...I mean, to our training. If it matters to Anshu, then that's his personal issues, but he heads an organization that offers his effective interpretation and translation of the kihon gata, as well as classical shoden and higher gata he was taught by YOUR organization head. Now whether anyone wants to acknowledge Anshu as a student anymore, that's their prerogative, but the fact still remains:

SKH HAS the know-how, HAS the skills, HAS the experience, and HAS the right mindset to head an organization of civil-minded, (for the most part), individuals dedicated to self improvement, self protection, and the protection of others. You can say what you want about him, but let's see you accomplish what he has, and inspire martial artists around the world. Many Bujinkan members were brought into the experience by Anshu. I have three videos that depict Anshu co-teaching and translating both Dr. Hatsumi and Manaka-sensei's teachings to, (most likely), the current high dan rankers.

With experience like his, he is his own plaque, award, and qualification. His art is authentically based, and the spirit pervades in it. Argue it all you want, but you wouldn't know, because good friend, you're not one of us. That is To-Shin Do practitioners (which is not necessarily a bad thing, so don't stary ye' wining). :flame: