To-Shin Do and the Togakure Ninja Spirit

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bydand

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Funny, sir...truly a To Shin Do Role Model.
I would hope not. Either you OR me.

I didn't yell, for there were not exclamation points. Big letters draw attention...pay attention:

Sorry, I was assuming you were following simple, common, forum/message board sentence structure that has been around for longer than I have been posting on the internet.
pay attention now: You know the ones; all caps = yelling, larger typeface = yelling, bold typeface (in context) = yelling.

I never claimed Anshu was a god, but he is a martial arts role model.

I never said you did call him a god. I agree he is a role model (whom I would wonder how he would respond to my posts... May have to e-mail them to him so he could let me know...Naw he is too busy, I'll just run it by him next time I'm at a seminar with him. Either that or I'll stop by one of the Hombu Shihans tomorrow.)

I just don't understand what your saying. To me, it seems like you're riding the fence, and just don't understand such people. Riding the fence on your opinion that is, and so it's hard to respond to, sir...so I won't.

Wow, this isn't a response?
Plus I am not riding the fence, i have stated many times here on MT my stand on the art I practice and the people I train with. As well as those who act like children and give the art I love a bad reputation on forums I participate on.

What I will do, is continue to post, promoting my art, teachers, and experiences in said are, and with said teachers. HOPEFULLY, that won't be TOO Honeymoon (whatever that means) for you, SIR.

:waah:? ... ... ...:lol:

-Scott
Proud To-Shin Do

Great! Good experiences and posts are what we need, not foolishness. I hope you do continue training, I hope you get friends and family members excited about the art.




PS. - We are looking at the definitions I have highlighted. Used in this context it refers to the period where an individual cannot or will not see flaws in anything new to them. Yes there are flaws in our art, just as there are flaws in any art out there. Following taken from "Dictionary.com"

hon繚ey繚moon:
thinsp.png
/ˈhʌn
thinsp.png
iˌmun/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[huhn-ee-moon] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun 1.a vacation or trip taken by a newly married couple. 2.the month or so following a marriage. 3.any period of blissful harmony: Their entire 60 years of marriage was one long honeymoon. 4.any new relationship characterized by an initial period of harmony and goodwill: The honeymoon between Congress and the new president was over. verb (used without object) 5.to spend one's honeymoon (usually fol. by in or at).
 
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ToShinDoKa

ToShinDoKa

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I resent you referring to me insulting To-Shin Do. The fact that the art can admit its shortcomings and not be ruled solely by unchangeable tradition is why I admire it so.

I'm sorry if I'm cynical when I speak, but I find it makes boring conversations interesting...perhaps not in this instance.

All together, I don't believe I was wrong for what I've said, but if it's enough to stop your degradation of my profile, than whatever, I apologies. Bullying a person into retracting their opinion's really admirable.
 

bydand

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Oh lord, another one for the ignore list. Some peoples kids just don't get it. I'm out of the thread, I tire of foolishness and didn't even intend to post in here because I knew it would turn into this mess.

Post what you will, it is like talking to a kid who just doesn't get it. And ToShinDoKa, quit PM'ing me, I could care less about your thoughts.
 

MJS

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Mr. E

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Oh lord, another one for the ignore list.

Do you really want to cede control of what people here think of Toshindo to people like Toshindoka?

When I stated certain truths, I was attacked by several Toshindo members as hating Mr Hayes and Toshindo. But if that was the case, then I would not be saying what I am going to say.

Bydand, do you really think that Toshindoka is going to stop this type of behavior just because you don't deal with him? I think not. And I think it is clear that you find his behavior to be bad and not a good example of the Toshindo you want people to see. Several other people have stated the same thing.

But have you realized that so far you are the only person from within Toshindo that has specifically stood up to him? Micheal Stinson wrote a generic note of disaproval, but it was not very specific and with only 21 posts since 2004 I think he suffers from having too much of a real life to counter much of what goes on here.

No one else from within Toshindo is saying that what he writes is not cool with them. I can point to some who praise him, some of the same take the time to attack others, but no other Toshindo member other than you has taken the time to state that his actions are not what you want Toshindo to become.

When someone identified as being a member of a group says something and all the members of the group say nothing, it is natural to assume that they accept, or at least do not oppose, their group being associated with that statement.

And if it were not for you and Mr Stinson, then all the other members of martialtalk would assume that Toshindo practicioners have no problem with attacking other arts, insulting other people and promoting a "us vs them" attitude.

Take a look again at some of the things he wrote,

Perhaps your spirit isn't in this art, don't harp on me because mine is.

To me, it seems like you're riding the fence, and just don't understand such people. Riding the fence on your opinion that is, and so it's hard to respond to, sir...so I won't.

Clearly one gets the impression that you are either part of what Toshindoka says, or you are the enemy. And so far, you are the only one we can count on to say that it is not loyalty to a person, but to the truth that controls what you do. If you stop paying attention to what he writes, and he posts more of what he has been posting, then what do you think people will think when not a single Toshindo member seems to have a problem with it?

What kind of groups do that sort of thing? Do you want people to think of Toshindo in the same light as those sort of groups? More importantly, do you want those that think in that manner to have the greatest voice in what you do in your art?

Please think carefully before you follow through with your statement. You are a very valuable, clever and honorable member of martialtalk and Toshindo. You do your art proud. It would be a shame if you stood aside as those who are none of those things continue to spew the same things as they have.
 

Johan D'hondt

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humm,

speaking is silver, silence is gold.....

(belgian proverb)

does that talk to somebody....

johan D'hondt
long distance student
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(16 years in martial arts)
 

SKB

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:asian:

You win, I give up.

:lol:


Don't give up, just realize what they are doing and move on! Folks write what they want on here and some folks seem to just gang up on them. Let it go and wait for a good subject to come up!

Insulting them does not work neither does making a good point. Just let them type away...............
 

Highland Ninja

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I've read this thread without dipping my toe in the water, but this comment by ToShinDoKa just forced me to comment. ToShinDoKa wrote:

He, while some would easily focus on defending themselves, truly demonstrated the NIN in ninja and endured such persecution, focusing instead on keeping his students or practitioners in general, focused on self improvement. Truly, IMHO, the ninja spirit.
I'm sorry, but it is anything but the "ninja spirit" that makes Hayes act polite and focused in the matter. I've known Steve for a very long time, and as long as I have known him, he has always been a ceaseless self-promoter. And no, I don't mean that in an entirely good way either.

I recall when he was writing articles for Ninja Magazine and interviewing himself under a pseudonym (ie he "interviewed" himself). :shrug:

I used to talk to Steve over the phone back in the 80's, and he once lied to me about why Soke could not attend a particular Ninja Festival. He made a huge lie as an excuse, and then I found out the real reason...he was being cheap. Didn't want to spend the money Hatsumi demanded, and he was demanding it as a test for Steve because Steve had entered his "greedy mode" by that time.

I was friends with the guy who ran Shadows of Iga for him (Ron Murray) and used to spend time at the "Shadows of Iga house" that Steve bought to run the organization. So I got the inside scoop on many of his "tempter tantrums" when people upset him by doing training that Steve was not himself able to do. I even witnessed a few myself. And of course, we got the "dirt" on many things he did through people like Roger Stebelton, Dan Johnson, and Larry Turner, all of whom were close to Steve and knew the real Steve who only ever showed the world his "Stephen K. Hayes" personna. I myself have only personally interacted with Steve outside of his "Shidoshi mode" (as we used to call it) about 2-3 times over the years.

When Hatsumi started demonstrating the kukinage (energy throw, without touching a person), and a teacher who trained with the Highland, Indiana Shadows of Iga group was demonstrating a similar skill, Steve went ballistic because he did not have that skill. Suddenly in his next book, Ninja Realms of Power, we find Steve faking the kukinage throw. :rolleyes: :bs1:

The same thing happened when the Highland group started learning some special 6-member military patrol techniques from certain special forces instructors (Jeff Prather, etc). Eventually this training became part of the Windwarrior Seminars conducted by Roger Stebelton and other instructors. When they would not teach it to Steve (he wanted them to teach it to him), he had a conniption fit. Lots of shouting and pounding of fists on desks. Steve did not like the idea of anyone being able to do anything he could not do. It was precisely this jealous and fanatical pursuit of power on Steve's part that caused many of his early students such as Roger Stebelton to have a falling out with him. Anything that he perceived as a threat to his egotistical belief that he was "the" great source of ninjutsu training in America was belittled, ridiculed, or pushed away.

This ultimately culminated in Steve distancing himself from Soke and going in his own direction once others started training in Japan and passing Steve up in rank. Many of us saw that coming, because we knew Steve's ego would not allow it. No need for a crystal ball to forsee that event!

So it is not Steve being "ninja like" and he is certainly not the suffering martyr you paint him as. So please spare us the :sadsong: about how poor Steve is being unfairly treated. The criticisms some of us have for him stem directly from our direct interaction with him over the years and Steve's own actions. There's no need to cover his recent outrages against Soke, it's been talked to death.

No, it's not some "ninja spirit". It is merely Steve being careful not to blow his carfully crafted public image, which he has invested his entire life and career into. It's not that he doesn't want to rip into people for it, it's that he cannot afford to allow himself to do so because of the bottom line...it would hurt him financially. It's always been about money to Steve. At least, ever since he found himself growing rich in the limelight anyway. :rolleyes:

Now lest any Toshindo students go ballistic, I will remind them that I am not saying that Steve has no skills. He does have a good deal of skill. He's not exactly on the Top Ten List of people I'd like to get into a life-and -death combat with. And I'm not saying that it's wrong to train with Steve or that Toshindo has no value.

What I am saying is that all the negativity Steve is having to "endure" comes from his own egotistical, greedy, and disrespectful actions. I'm just telling it like it is. Steve has issues, and he's not made any progress with them that I can see in over a quarter century now. Money is the ultimate thing in Steve's life, and he will corrupt, sacrifice, or warp his training in order to keep the money coming in.

You gotta hand it to him though. He's the ultimate self-promoter. That's where most of his training in the last 25 years has been. And Steve was always fond of surrounding himself with sycophants who worship the ground he walks on (or in some cases those who pretend to). I see that has not changed over the years either. :rolleyes:

Like I said, perhaps the truth hurts, but truth is truth. It won't change how some people think of Steve, because usually people are not interested in hearing the truth, but rather only that which they want to hear. So be it. I no longer associate with Steve, so what he does no longer matters to me. I do find it interesting though, watching his ongoing antics.

[Edit: Grammar/spelling]
 
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ToShinDoKa

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Oh, and that was a very nice story, Highland Ninja, and I appreciate you sharing it with us. :)

To-Shin!

-Scott T. Ealey
Proud To-Shin Do Practitioner
 

KevinCasey

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I feel compelled to make my debut on this forum in order to ease any concern that might be generated by someone reading Highland-Ninja's vision of Stephen Hayes.

I've been involved in the organization for 9 years, I'm reasonably in the "inner circle", and I've never witnessed anything like what Highland-Ninja describes. To the contrary, I've traveled all over the world and worked in big business, played in adventure travel, and met people of every class, race, and history, and I've never met someone who impresses me more than Stephen Hayes. I introduce him to other friends of mine who are also highly experienced, talented, intelligent, educated people, and they concur.

Even if I were deluded myself somehow, the caliber of people who choose to associate with him is an impressive statement itself. These are people who could do anything in the world - some of them operate at legendary levels in their respective fields of medicine, finance, military, and law enforcement - and they choose to continue in To-Shin Do for years and years. You can't trick people like that.

So, if you are starting the path or researching the path, take heart. You are among heroes and visionaries, and they would be thrilled to help you become a visionary hero yourself. I am one of them.

--Kevin Casey
 

Highland Ninja

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Kevin Casey wrote:

You can't trick people like that.
Actually, it happens all the time. Human nature. People believe what they want to believe. Even a simple stage magician can fool the people you're talking about. It's all about perception. I'm speaking from experience as well. Even with a 140 IQ, I got fooled by a bad teacher once (along with a bunch of other highly intelligent people). Once was enough.

Furthermore, let's go back to the earlier claim that ToShinDoKa made:

He, while some would easily focus on defending themselves, truly demonstrated the NIN in ninja and endured such persecution, focusing instead on keeping his students or practitioners in general, focused on self improvement. Truly, IMHO, the ninja spirit.

If Steve truly thought there was no need to defend himself, he would not be going to such great lengths to constantly post "explanations" on his website, in an effort to fool people into believing that he is still in Soke's good graces when in fact he is not. :rolleyes: Funny how everyone in Japan sees it one way (including everyone close to Soke), and yet Steve insists it's another.

Steve's believability is also blown because he's been caught lying about so many issues when it comes to training in ninjutsu.

Steve is doing anything but "enduring" the "persecution" as you call it. No, this is a classic case of Hayesian Damage Control. Go into "Shidoshi mode", use flowery language to obscure the facts, and warp the truth. I've seen it time and time again over the years.

Been there, done that, considering writing the definitive book on the matter.
 
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ToShinDoKa

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The last time Anshu addressed that on his site was over a year ago. Such things apparently are not the focal point in his journey, now. He has an organization to run, and some people, like me, who sees the great benefit in what he's doing. :) If my posting on why I believe my teacher is a great teacher and embodies what he'd set out to do, has caused you to feel you must harp on him, then I'll keep my truths to myself in the future. I did not set out, though I may have, to tarnish the reputation of our art and Anshu, by arguing a thought that is merely my viewpoint.

Despite whatever may be the truth in these matters, Anshu has encouraged his students and friends to do some great things, and pursue their personal goals in the martial arts and life... My opinions spawn from that result. The belief that his students can be heroes in a world so in need of them...like Michael Stinson! Real herous, Highland Ninja. This is the kind of organization Anshu Stephen Kin-ryu Jien Hayes runs. And I think it's pretty cool. :)
 

Johan D'hondt

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humm,..... (no, I won't repeat my belgian proverb...lol)


lots of news....
I like the answer of Kevin Casey, but indeed, you only have been involved since 9 years ( :) )...
I can imagine that An-Shu Stephen Hayes (this is how we call mr Hayes ) was a bit different in the '80's, it was about 30 years ago...
I may be possible that in the '80's, he may have lost his calm, became angry with somebody and slammed his fist on the table. that can happen !
Did you never get angry in your life, mr highland Ninja?
Maybe, you are so lucky to live in a town where everybody is at your service.
Where everybody loves and admires you, where nobody even thinks about harming you and your loved ones. Where the beating rain stops when you step out of your car, to avoid you from getting in a bad mood.
When somebody insults you, you just look at him, and he apologises for being rude to you.....
of course, this would be great !!!
unfortunately, our world does not opperate that way and I can easely imaging that those things may have affected An-Shu Hayes in the '80's.

For my part of the history, I got to met An-Shu for the first time around 1991, where he gave me the impression of somebody who was totally in control of his life, working hard, exploring all facets (fysical and mental) of the ancient ninja art, and what impressed me most, he was ready to share his knowledge with me !

I participated in several Mikkyo meditation weekends offered by An-Shu Hayes during the '90's in Germany. There he has shown us how to take charge of our innermost potential to free us from anger, worries and regrets that come along our lives.
NOW, years later, I secretly hope that An-Shu Hayes has made some progress with his inner work...
For what I have seen so far, he has...

Johan D'hondt
Long distance Student
Belgium

Note: please remark the humour notes, please do not take all of it in the first degree, in no way I would want somebody be feel attacked.
especially not mr highland ninja, I just wanted make clear that people can and do change...with time.
 

shesulsa

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Admin. Note:

Please refer to the Forum Charter for this section and refrain from any further fraud-busting, art-bashing discussions.

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SKB

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OK so who keeps dinging me on the reputation thing for this thread???? If you got something to say......... say it instead of telling me what I should be doing! Some folks have their own ideas of what is good behavior on this thing and what is not. Just because folks do not agree with you does not mean they are behaving badly!!!!!

Guess what folks....... some of us LIKE TO TRAIN IN TO SHIN DO AND WE LIKE MR. HAYES!!!! SORRY IF YOU DO NOT BUT MYSELF AND OTHERS DO! And yes that was me yelling!!! So if you guys want to gang up on everyone who is positive about either the art or Mr. Hayes feel free BUT stop crying about the rest of us not coming around to your way of thinking and having a diffrent thought on the subject then you.

Now please feel free to have at me....... but could you at least do it out in the open for all to enjoy?????
 

Sukerkin

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SKB, it is in the nature of the moderation of MT that personal attacks, aggressive posting and malicious 'fraud-busting' is explicitly against the 'contract' all of us entered into when we signed up.

That's in part what makes MT such a pleasant place to be.

It might also be why those in this 'dispute' choose to use the rep system to register their disagreement rather than venting forth in the thread. That is one of the potential roles of the rep system i.e. to act as a pressure valve.

I personally do not think it is a good use of the system, feeling that it is better purposed to encourage rather than punish. If you wish to, it is legitimate to report the issue to the moderating staff if you believe that you are being unfairly treated. I can assure you that they will deal with the matter impartially.
 
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ToShinDoKa

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SKB, it is in the nature of the moderation of MT that personal attacks, aggressive posting and malicious 'fraud-busting' is explicitly against the 'contract' all of us entered into when we signed up.

That's in part what makes MT such a pleasant place to be.

It might also be why those in this 'dispute' choose to use the rep system to register their disagreement rather than venting forth in the thread. That is one of the potential roles of the rep system i.e. to act as a pressure valve.

I personally do not think it is a good use of the system, feeling that it is better purposed to encourage rather than punish. If you wish to, it is legitimate to report the issue to the moderating staff if you believe that you are being unfairly treated. I can assure you that they will deal with the matter impartially.

I understand that Sukerkin, but when people unjustly leave you bad reps for making an argument, similar to how this post will probably earn me one, it makes you look bad.
 
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