Confused

[Yama Arashi]

First and foremost I am not a member of the Bujinkan or Genbukan. I have however done more than my fair share of research into the art of Ninjutsu and taijutsu. I, by no means consider myself and expert of the subject of this art. I've already read most of your arguements about sparring and live training so don't bother reposting them. I just can't sit idly by anymore and listen to this nonsense. Please, just hear what I have to say and decide later. Some might be enlightened and some will never learn. This might be rubbish or gold. Take it for what it's worth to you.

As long as I can remember I have had an obsession with the whole ninja thing. As I grew older I took to the books to discover what the "real" ninjutsu thing was about. I became genuinely interest and vowed to one day study the art. I come from a small town and an not even close so that option is closed.

Being that the Bujinkan is the more popular X-kan I order Hatsumi videos and books and buried myself in them. The more I read and saw the more I liked it.

Then about 1 year ago I became totally [FONT=&quot]disallusioned with the whole idea of Bujinkan training.Thoughts started rushing in my head. Wait this isn't ninjutsu! It's the fighting element Taijutsu! That's why the diplomas say Budo Taijutsu not ninjutsu now. Okay, I could deal with that, cool, cool, ninjutsu isn't needed now anyway. What do I want to be a spy, no. That's silly. We're not in pretend land. Then came the "we don't spar, it makes you a bad fighter". Okay I understand it's not a sport but how do you teach alive training without going full speed or having a fully resisting Uke? So fighting doesn't make you a better fighter? I'm confused, training how to drive is not the same as driving. Real experience is key. Then what totally blew my mind is watching my Tai Kai videos. The students in Japan just watched Hatsumi perform and then tried to replicate it, terribly I might add, and then on to the next lesson. Where's the repeditive action and then full speed application. I am in Judo/Jujutsu (becaue that is all that is offered in my small town - that or Tae Kwon Do - easy choice there) and I learn trhrows that look sweet. Problem is I try them in a match and they don't work for me, why? Because they simply don't work for me, not at full speed anyway. How did I learn that these techniques were bad for me?. I tried using them "live". They worked fine in practice with a uke. If I had never tried using the tech in randori I would have a false confidence that it would work for me. Now comparing Judo to Taijutsu is apples and oranges but the concepts are still there.

Here is another point I would like to make. Toshitsugu Takamatsu did live sparring and he thought it was important. If he didn't why did he travel to China and fight tons of people to prove his art was superior. He was a great fighter cause he FOUGHT! He even killed people in matches. Now he chose to fight without , which is something I think some of you need to consider. He didn't always use death blows to win, he competed in friendly sparring. I guess according to some sparring makes your taijutsu worse. I guess Takamatsu had bad taijutsu then? No, it made his BETTER! Does anyone remember this from his history? It should be noted that he does not talk about toughness, the ability to hurt people, or the thrill of conquering others in order to make oneself more important. Please don't write back saying he already proved the techniques so I don't have to. Just because your art contains a great fighter doesn't not make you one. Why have you strayed so far from the Takamatsu teachings, Hatsumi? I understand he is Soke, but this budo has become a former shadow (not in a good ninja sense either) of what it used to be.

Sorry if I have offended anyone. I want to learn Taijusu but fear that without proper aliveness it will be worthless. Is the Bujinkan for me or should I look into Genbukan? I heard those guys train full on. Plus after research I feel Shoto Tanemura is perserving Takamatsu's art better than Hatsumi is. That is my opinion, I will respect yours. Thank you for reading my post I have tried to be respectable as possible. Please forgive any offenses.

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[Kreth]

Why have you strayed so far from the Takamatsu teachings, Hatsumi? I understand he is Soke, but this budo has become a former shadow (not in a good ninja sense either) of what it used to be.

Interesting that you can make this call, never having set foot in a class.

 

[Yama Arashi]

Interesting that you can make this call, never having set foot in a class.

I understand the concepts. No, I have not set foot in class. Unfortunatly I am not near one. I have numerous Hatsumi tapes of classes and demos which is not the same.

 

[lalom]

Yama Arashi, what is your reading of Jinenkan tell you? What are your opinions of that organization?

 

[Yama Arashi]

Also I know training is different from what it used to be by watching a very old video of Hatsumi training his Japanese students and they were head butting walls and basically beating the crap out of each other. Their was and such.

 

[Yama Arashi]

Yama Arashi, what is your reading of Jinenkan tell you? What are your opinions of that organization?

Actually don't know too much about that x-kan. Just know that it was started by one of the original students of Hatsumi. They like apparently Kata so that might be out.

I see you are To shin Do. Did you like it? Hayes got me started on Ninjutsu dispite his early mistakes. Dispite I all the he gets from the Bujinkan, I have great respect for what he has done.

I have thought about Genbukan, To shindo, or Dallas Ninjutsu Academy -their .

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Then came the "we don't spar, it makes you a bad fighter". Okay I understand it's not a sport but how do you teach alive training without going full speed or having a fully resisting Uke?

For starters, you need to be mentally present. You can't just replicate what you've been shown.

So fighting doesn't make you a better fighter?

Depends on what you want to train to handle.

The students in Japan just watched Hatsumi perform and then tried to replicate it, terribly I might add, and then on to the next lesson. Where's the repeditive action and then full speed application.

At people's regular training places, hopefully.

Problem is I try them in a match and they don't work for me, why? Because they simply don't work for me, not at full speed anyway.

It could be that you don't understand what's needed for them to be useful, it could be that you're sparring with people who have a fair idea as to what you're about to do and thus are able to counter it etc etc etc...

Here is another point I would like to make. Toshitsugu Takamatsu did live sparring and he thought it was important. If he didn't why did he travel to China and fight tons of people to prove his art was superior.

Now here's an interesting phenomenon.
Self-righteousness is always an interesting part of people's personalities, whether it's a true "from the gutter to the riches" type of story or just some drunk prom guy sitting there going on and on about his alleged conquests in someone's newly acquired first apartment. In cases such as these it is however more along the likes of some serious post-pubertal disorder, which causes the affected to relish in the fantasy that they have achieved, to the point of actually BEING, equal in regards to
Toshitsugu Takamatsu.
In a blatant display of total shamelessness, they seem to infer that their knowledge of kihon happo and ryuha kata is exactly as in-depth as Takamatsu's was when he went off to China, and thus their knowledge and abilities are precisely as well suited to pressure testing as Big T's were.

The not-so-well thought out evidences to support this theory are mainly comprised of the fact that all the individuals involved were so called "martial artists" with experience of "hard" and "realistic" training. In the same vein, KRS-One, who was brought up in a dysfunctional home and actually went homeless for a while and nowadays is one of the most prominent acts in alternative hiphop, is the rap music equivalent of Takamatsu. Just as Larry Flynt, based on the same premises, is the adult industry's equivalent of Takamatsu. These people want to BE "budo" so badly that in a tragicomically euphoric attempt to distance themselves from reality, they actually try to place themselves in Takamatsu's stead within their warped dreams of real combat experience.

Based on this I have only one thing to say. My world and their world are miles apart, but they're far out there sailing the sea adjacent to The-Land-Of-Do-As-You-Please and apart from my aversion towards everyday fascism, I am one of the most humble people in the Bujinkan in regards to what I feel I can and cannot do as far as kihon happo and ryuha kata are concerned. It's even gone so far that one of the main reasons I'm still training at my old place is the fact that that is where I feel the most unskilled.

And now back to discussions about lineages, other Booj offshoots, the nine ryuha, daily training suggestions, flashlights and firearms. Serious stuff.

EDIT: This is my last entry in this thread.

Why have you strayed so far from the Takamatsu teachings, Hatsumi?

See above.

I understand he is Soke, but this budo has become a former shadow (not in a good ninja sense either) of what it used to be.

See above.

Plus after research I feel Shoto Tanemura is perserving Takamatsu's art better than Hatsumi is.

See above.

 

[lalom]

Actually don't know too much about that x-kan. Just know that it was started by one of the original students of Hatsumi. They like apparently Kata so that might be out.

I see you are To shin Do. Did you like it? Hayes got me started on Ninjutsu dispite his early mistakes. Dispite I all the he gets from the Bujinkan, I have great respect for what he has done.

I have thought about Genbukan, To shindo, or Dallas Ninjutsu Academy -their .

I love To-Shin Do. I also train in Bujinkan Budo when I can, although I do not persue rank in it. My preferences is To-Shin Do as I got my start there and have more friends in it. I enjoy both extremely.

 

[Yama Arashi]

WARNING: RANT

Yes, I admit I don't have enough knowledge to always make moves work and circumstances are a factor. That's why I move on to natural movements that work for me from the start. It doesn't mean the move is simpler, just more applicable to say my height and strenght and definatly skill. I'm no Kimura!
Nimravus-
I am begining to see now I should probably pursue other x-kan then?

"I am one of the most humble people in the Bujinkan" is not humility



"Self-righteousness is always an interesting part of people's personalities"
-how true


On to more serious stuff
Point being if Takamatsu hadn't done what he had done their would be no Bujinkan. If funny what you say about "so called martial artist". When I tell people of my interest in one day pursuing Taijutsu and telling them what it is they laugh. People seem to think the X-kans are nothing more than LARPers who want this thing you call wanting to be Budo so badly. I disagree, however it's hard to shake off the label when there are practioners who won't even spar to prove the effectivness of their art in a no egotisical match. This TOO LY idea has got to go. If Ninjutsu is about doing whatever it takes to survive that doesn't mean killing everyone in front of you, pulling knifes, using "dirty tricks". It means running like hell from danger or avoiding it right out. These "dirty tricks" can be used if warrented, but people that would attack you in real life will use tricks as well. Grabbing nuts, biting, eye gouging, sand in the eyes, unexpected knifes all great. If students don't have the ability to test their skills as close to full speed as possible without injury how can they truly know. Don't give me protective gear makes bad habits and hinder you. Pads, headgear, gloves and such are different from real but it's close and better that nothing. I'm sure some of you use foam daisho to train sword does that take away from your taijutsu because it's not close enough to a real blade?


Still diluded. I would rather follow Takamatsu because he lived it than someone merely playing bushi. It's too bad what he had to do to make the art live is underappriecated, that and he died way before our time.
Thanks for all your help, you helped me to understand what Tanemura did with the Genbukan and the other X-kans was there way of keeping Taijutsu alive and healthy.


If you feel the Bujinkan is the right place for you, it is. Stay there and train hard. Do what works for you. I wish you all the best of luck with your taijutsu training and wish you all well on future endevors.
Peace

 

[Yama Arashi]

I love To-Shin Do. I also train in Bujinkan Budo when I can, although I do not persue rank in it. My preferences is To-Shin Do as I got my start there and have more friends in it. I enjoy both extremely.

Where do you train? Why do you do both Classical vs modern? I would enjoy advice and insight on To-shindo. I have a few SKH DVDs. Actualy I have 17. Stephan seems like an enlightened fellow. Have you meet him? Impressions? I feel having the right instructor for you makes all the difference.

 

[heretic888]

I like the fact that somebody that has never set foot in a Bujinkan dojo feels he is knowledgeable enough about Takamatsu's budo to decide that Hatsumi has "strayed" from it.

Please. Spare me. It's my birthday.

Laterz.

 

[Yama Arashi]

Yeah, your right. Just as someone who has never trained with Takamatsu knows what his budo is really about, spare me!

 

[heretic888]

Yeah, your right. Just as someone who has never trained with Takamatsu knows what his budo is really about, spare me!

The difference is that I, unlike you, never made the claim that I have "figured out" the budo of Takamatsu Toshitsugu.

So, Yama Arashi, how much time did you spend training with Takamatsu, then??

Laterz.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

The title of this thread spells it out for all of us!

Yama Arashi, if you are interested in learning true Budo Taijutsu then I would advise you to search for a dojo and a teacher. You cannot make a sound decision until you do so. Videos, DVD's etc are all fine and good but until you set your feet on the mats so to speak your impression of what is Budo Taijutsu may be way off. Good luck!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[Yama Arashi]

The difference is that I, unlike you, never made the claim that I have "figured out" the budo of Takamatsu Toshitsugu.

So, Yama Arashi, how much time did you spend training with Takamatsu, then??

Laterz.

A: you already know

I know how Hatsumi use to train his students from very old videos with no sound even. Check them out at google video or youtube. They fought each other daily with live sparring. That meant lots of and pain. When's the last time you've been knocked out. Is it a daily occurance? How does he train now? Demo - Play. Students try a little and next demo. It's not the same is all I am saying. I don't need Takamatsu here to know the difference between soft students and hardened fighters. Admit the change, it's not the respectable force that it was before it was watered down for weak, fat Americans with no skill or sense of what a real fight between two well trained fighters was like. I America is not anicent japan but stop claiming to be tradional ninjutsu practioners. Don't get me wrong here I respect Hatsumi, without him I would not even know what we were taking about here. But I have to admit his teaching method is not what it was to create skilled fighters.

 

[heretic888]

A: you already know

I know how Hatsumi use to train his students from very old videos with no sound even. Check them out at google video or youtube. They fought each other daily with live sparring. That meant lots of and pain. When's the last time you've been knocked out. Is it a daily occurance? How does he train now? Demo - Play. Students try a little and next demo. It's not the same is all I am saying. I don't need Takamatsu here to know the difference between soft students and hardened fighters. Admit the change, it's not the respectable force that it was before it was watered down for weak, fat Americans with no skill or sense of what a real fight between two well trained fighters was like. I America is not anicent japan but stop claiming to be tradional ninjutsu practioners. Don't get me wrong here I respect Hatsumi, without him I would not even know what we were taking about here. But I have to admit his teaching method is not what it was to create skilled fighters.

Y'know, I'd respond. . .

But, I think I'll let somebody like Dale, Don, or Ben wipe the floor with you. Have fun.

I'm off to class.

 

[Yama Arashi]

The title of this thread spells it out for all of us!

Yama Arashi, if you are interested in learning true Budo Taijutsu then I would advise you to search for a dojo and a teacher. You cannot make a sound decision until you do so. Videos, DVD's etc are all fine and good but until you set your feet on the mats so to speak your impression of what is Budo Taijutsu may be way off. Good luck!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

You are correct. Thank you. The title I did want however would not be very well recieved so I opted for something else. But please don't make the assumption that I can't understand at all. I didn't have to fight in the Revolutionary war to appreicate my Freedom.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Yes, but if you have never trained in a real Bujinkan Dojo then how can you make such broad sweeping statements? You have no frame of referance to speak of other than demos on videos. Budo Taijutsu is an alive martial system that involves alot of sacrifice and turns out some of the most talented martial artists that I have met. I think that you need to experience it for a couple of months and then make your decision. However, even a couple of months will not do a system that is this broad any justice. :ultracool

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[Kreth]

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Kreth/Jeff Velten
-MT Moderator-

 

[Don Roley]

Why have you strayed so far from the Takamatsu teachings, Hatsumi?

Why don't you go ask him yourself?

And after all that he went through, why does it seem that when Takamatsu taught Hatsumi there wasn't that much sparring as far as I can tell? And the times I can remember stories close to sparring from Takamatsu's life they don't sound like part of training, but rather challenge matches. In one of them, Takamatsu lost his hearing in one ear. If you count that as sparring, then I don't think that many people who claim to do sparring match his standards. Unless you engage in sparring where someone can be permenently maimed, you are just LARPing it I guess.

Hatsumi used to do a few things very differently. I have had conversations with one of his students that was there from the beggining and he said that a lot of stuff was taken from his judo days and things got better after he got sick and could not rely on strength anymore.

I have heard from another Japanese who said that in the early days Hatsumi had sparring, but dropped it when some of the foriegn students started developing bad habits. The people who used to train with sparring used to only be those who had perfect taijutsu and they did so under the eyes of Hatsumi. Those from overseas started developing habits more suited to winning in the ring than on the street.

FYI, there is a bit of stress training and dealing with ukes that seek to counter me in my dojo in Japan. But there is no competition, there is no taking note of who "wins" in a drill.

Instead of joining up here and heading straight to the ninja forums to tell us how our training sucks, maybe you should have done some more research into the way training is done- like maybe set foot in a real dojo.

You might find that there are more ways up the mountain than you thought and it is only your limited experience that makes you think what you do.