Tricking

Midnight-shadow

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I'm curious on what people's opinion on tricking is, and whether they consider it a valid form of Martial Arts. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, watch this video:

 

Touch Of Death

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While I believe in this stuff, and would use it over trading punches with a monster, there is clearly an over emphasis going on, here. :)
 

MAfreak

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its cool to watch and i'd love to be able to do it. its partially in capoeira, taekwondo and wushu.
but its not close to fighting.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I'm curious on what people's opinion on tricking is, and whether they consider it a valid form of Martial Arts. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, watch this video:

It looks like fun, and requires a lot of skill. It has more in common with gymnastics than combat.
 
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Midnight-shadow

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It looks like fun, and requires a lot of skill. It has more in common with gymnastics than combat.

It's almost a cross between Martial Arts, Gymnastics and Dance. I guess the real question is what is the difference between dancing, gymnastics and Martial Arts. All 3 follow similar actions and body movements, to the point where you can take many Martial Arts and turn them into a dance. Is the only difference in the intent of the actions? For example, the guy in the video is not aiming to fight anyone, but could very easily turn the skills and techniques he has into a fight.
 

Bill Mattocks

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It's almost a cross between Martial Arts, Gymnastics and Dance. I guess the real question is what is the difference between dancing, gymnastics and Martial Arts. All 3 follow similar actions and body movements, to the point where you can take many Martial Arts and turn them into a dance. Is the only difference in the intent of the actions? For example, the guy in the video is not aiming to fight anyone, but could very easily turn the skills and techniques he has into a fight.

I would tend to argue that tricking skills are not fighting skills, not even a little. That's not to say this person could not defend themselves, but their self defense, if effective, would look a lot more, er, down to earth.
 

Danny T

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It is an excellent and valid form of martial art influenced gymnastics. Excellent body control, balance, explosive leg power. What happens when there is an opponent punching and kicking at the same time.
I strongly recommend my students do run...everyday. Those fighters I train do run. Does running increase their fighting skills? Not specifically but it does increase their aerobic cardio and sprints greatly help with their anaerobic cardio tremendously. Then again runners who have never trained have good aerobic cardio but their fight skills are mostly poor. Same with martial gymnastics for the most part unless they are actually drilling and sparring against an opponent while doing so.
 
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It is an excellent and valid form of martial art influenced gymnastics. Excellent body control, balance, explosive leg power. What happens when there is an opponent punching and kicking at the same time.
I strongly recommend my students do run...everyday. Those fighters I train do run. Does running increase their fighting skills? Not specifically but it does increase their aerobic cardio and sprints greatly help with their anaerobic cardio tremendously. Then again runners who have never trained have good aerobic cardio but their fight skills are mostly poor. Same with martial gymnastics for the most part unless they are actually drilling and sparring against an opponent while doing so.

There are a lot of different sports that benefit others but are otherwise unrelated. A classic example of this is Ballet helping Soccer players. Are they going to go out onto the field and start ballet dancing? No, but the balance and coordination they develop from doing Ballet will help them in their Soccer play. Just because skills or physical attributes can be transferred from one sport to another doesn't mean they are the same. The question still stands? Is tricking a valid form of Martial Art and if not, then why?
 

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Four things come to mind:

1) It's more art than martial.
2) Great skill is shown for what it is.
3) I'm not sure what makes him 'crippled'.
4) The only 'tricking' I would be interested in for self defense is tricking my opponent into not attacking me.
 

Danny T

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That would be subjected to one's definition of what a Martial Art is.
In my opinion it is a form of martial art influenced gymnastics.
 

Gerry Seymour

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It's almost a cross between Martial Arts, Gymnastics and Dance. I guess the real question is what is the difference between dancing, gymnastics and Martial Arts. All 3 follow similar actions and body movements, to the point where you can take many Martial Arts and turn them into a dance. Is the only difference in the intent of the actions? For example, the guy in the video is not aiming to fight anyone, but could very easily turn the skills and techniques he has into a fight.
Yes, the main difference is intent. Martial arts should (with some notable exceptions) focus on efficient movements designed to do specific things (injure, break balance, block, evade, etc.). Gymnastics should focus on showing what the human body can do with balance, high coordination, and strength. Dance is typically focused on grace, though much urban dance incorporates a lot of the principles of floor routines from gymnastics.

A quote from Don Angiers (Yanagi-ryu Aiki Bugei): "Martial arts is a lot like dancing. A dancer will move gracefully around the room until they run into something, then they fall down. A martial artist will move gracefully around the room until they run into somthing, then _it_ will fall down."

I'd argue the point about the movements being similar. I watched part of the US Olympic trials, and saw very little there I'd want to see in my dojo. Nothing wrong with the movements, but they aren't practical for combat/defense/fighting.
 

Gerry Seymour

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There are a lot of different sports that benefit others but are otherwise unrelated. A classic example of this is Ballet helping Soccer players. Are they going to go out onto the field and start ballet dancing? No, but the balance and coordination they develop from doing Ballet will help them in their Soccer play. Just because skills or physical attributes can be transferred from one sport to another doesn't mean they are the same. The question still stands? Is tricking a valid form of Martial Art and if not, then why?
That depends upon the criteria you use to define "valid". Some would say MA are only "valid" if they are combat-tested (which rules out nearly all). Some will say only if they are fight-tested (which typically rules out all but sports). Others will say they must be focused on defensive combat (which rules out most sport).

I don't like questions about validity, because we each tend to have our own place to draw that line. I tend to differentiate among martial sports/combat sports (MMA, kickboxing, boxing, wrestling, fencing, etc.), self-defense systems (Krav Maga, etc.), self-defense arts (NGA, etc.) and esoteric styles (this is a loose category for those that seem to have no direct martial. defensive, or sport application for the physical movements they teach). Even within these - being my own categories - the distinctions are tenuous.
 

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It's almost a cross between Martial Arts, Gymnastics and Dance. I guess the real question is what is the difference between dancing, gymnastics and Martial Arts. All 3 follow similar actions and body movements, to the point where you can take many Martial Arts and turn them into a dance. Is the only difference in the intent of the actions? For example, the guy in the video is not aiming to fight anyone, but could very easily turn the skills and techniques he has into a fight.
In my opinion, they are all three quite different. Very different biomechanics, to accomplish different things, even if they appear similar on a superficial level. In my experience, dancers can have some real difficulting training into martial arts. They can't Make the switch in the biomechanics. They also get frustrated if they are an accomplished dancer, they can "do the moves" of the martial art, but it's still all wrong. Some of them don't like being told that.
 

Gerry Seymour

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That depends upon the criteria you use to define "valid". Some would say MA are only "valid" if they are combat-tested (which rules out nearly all). Some will say only if they are fight-tested (which typically rules out all but sports). Others will say they must be focused on defensive combat (which rules out most sport).

I don't like questions about validity, because we each tend to have our own place to draw that line. I tend to differentiate among martial sports/combat sports (MMA, kickboxing, boxing, wrestling, fencing, etc.), self-defense systems (Krav Maga, etc.), self-defense arts (NGA, etc.) and esoteric styles (this is a loose category for those that seem to have no direct martial. defensive, or sport application for the physical movements they teach). Even within these - being my own categories - the distinctions are tenuous.
In my opinion, they are all three quite different. Very different biomechanics, to accomplish different things, even if they appear similar on a superficial level. In my experience, dancers can have some real difficulting training into martial arts. They can't Make the switch in the biomechanics. They also get frustrated if they are an accomplished dancer, they can "do the moves" of the martial art, but it's still all wrong. Some of them don't like being told that.
Don Angiers (quoted previously) told me he preferred his students to have dance experience, because they'd have better balance, grace, and ability to keep their weight centered. At the same time, I can see where an experienced classical dancer might have issues, because their mechanics are mostly around balance and appearance - if a dance move looks right, it probably is. With MA, looking right and working are not synonymous.
 

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Don Angiers (quoted previously) told me he preferred his students to have dance experience, because they'd have better balance, grace, and ability to keep their weight centered. At the same time, I can see where an experienced classical dancer might have issues, because their mechanics are mostly around balance and appearance - if a dance move looks right, it probably is. With MA, looking right and working are not synonymous.
Yeah, modern dancers have the problems too. That dance background gives some real advantages, but also some very real disadvantages. It can be a real mixed bag. People assume it would be a benefit. Sometimes it is, but sometimes it is a detriment.
 

Bill Mattocks

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With regard to dancing...


As I understand it, the people who made Kuro Obi, a most excellent movie, trained a ballerina in the art of Japanese karate. (Not Kung Fu despite the title).

I have seen clips of her training as she progressed. Interesting. I think she was also acting in a martial arts movie, so some is for show. Tricking in a sense.

If you don't think much of her martial arts abilities, o a Google search for kuro obi ballerina. Lots of clips, in some she looks quite good.
 

JowGaWolf

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I was going to post my 2cents so I'll just post this video from someone who does tricking
 

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I would agree that tricking is more a form of gymnastics.
The emphasis is on building acrobatic techniques and flowing from one to another with grace and power.
You can strive to be creative, faster, and more powerful or all of the above, but as the name states: these are tricks.

I know a lot of trickers with no martial arts background, and a lot with a heavy martial arts background, and the overwhelming majority I have come in contact with are:
1. Super into what they do. Very enthusiastic and willing to share.
2. Are incredibly friendly and love teaching people more about Tricking
3. Do not treat it as a martial art and make no attempt to
 

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