Training is it for everybody

[terryl965]

I just signed up two ladys from another school today and thought I would share this with all of you.

They came and ask would I train them, I look confused and said yes if you would like.......

Then the lady looked at the other one and said see there are schools out there that would train us....

Again I looked puzzled and said whay would you think schools would not train them...

The lady turns and start laughing and said there other school they was at simply told them they are not the quality of person they wanted after there three month contract and then she went on to stay if you are round, short and have little athletic ability they get kicked out....

I was simply amazed by this approach and told them everybody has a right to train but then again certain trainer have no right to teach a Martial Art if they have these types of views.

What is everybody else take on this?

 

[Flying Crane]

...but then again certain trainer have no right to teach a Martial Art if they have these types of views.

What is everybody else take on this?

well, an instructor has the right to teach whomever he chooses, for whatever reasons, and likewise has the right to NOT teach whomever he chooses, for whatever reasons.

I guess it really depends on the focus of the school and the instructor. Some people cater to a specific crowd, others are more open about it and accept all. Neither is objectively right or wrong, just right or wrong for different people.

 

[terryl965]

Do you not feel only training those fit people are wrong and is not what Martial Art is about in the first place or maybe my views are different. I mean I would not train a pedifile or a rappist but to not train a certain age or wieght class just feel wrong to me.

 

[MBuzzy]

There is a big difference between not training someone because of their character and not training them because they aren't in shape enough. If every trainer behaved like this person there wouldn't be anyone in Martial Arts.

 

[Nolerama]

I've seen that around. There are a lot of MA studios that require a "tryout" period where they assess what you need to do as a student; and if they think you can't hack it, they drop you and keep your money. That happens in a lot of fitness centers as well.

That's bad business. Moreover, it's lazy!

The MAs are a great way to get in shape and learn to defend yourself. However, there's a lot of arrogance and elitism out there. I think it should be left to the student to decide how he or she wants to train in the MAs.

 

[newGuy12]

There is a big difference between not training someone because of their character and not training them because they aren't in shape enough. If every trainer behaved like this person there wouldn't be anyone in Martial Arts.

I know of a Teacher (not TKD) who says straight away, if you do not practice hard and practice often, you will be kicked out of his school! He says that right on his website, that is his right to do it! That is his way, good for him!

But, if some teacher kicked the student out because they did not gain fitness fast enough, I think that is a mistake. The student should keep on, in the hopes that they can get the idea of practice just right -- hopefully one day they will gain in fitness, balance, agility, strength. They will become better students, and all of the students will remember with amazement the changes that they have had, and everyone will be happy together for it.

No one would wish to miss out on such a thing. That is very confusing to dismiss a student because they are not yet so fit or powerful. Why not hang in there for a longer period, so that they can progress nicely???

 

[newGuy12]

Mah, the Dojang is not the Ranger School, it is not for some short time, but for a Prolonged Study, for a long time. The joy of seeing a poor student progress to being a good, strong student can be as nice as seeing some already fit person get the technique. I have seen teachers very proudly remember some students' abilities that were very sad to begin with, then later... yes, later they had much better technique!

 

[newGuy12]

she went on to stay if you are round, short and have little athletic ability they get kicked out....

That makes me think of the movies that we would watch as children, where the gong-fu man would not teach someone -- "You are too weak, I won't waste my time with you, you are too weak to learn this way."

"Oh, no, I am NOT too weak, you will teach me this."

"No, you are too weak to learn this Tiger-Crane, this is for strong people, go away."

"No, try me, you'll see, I am very strong."

"Okay, then, you run up that hill 5 times with that tire tied to you with the chain... Go!!!"

<the prospective student runs up and down the hill 5 times to show the teacher his stamina and perseverance>

"Okay, you can see that I am strong."

"Strong? We have just gotten started. Get those buckets and move all of that water from that one tub to the next, you will do it while duck walking .... go, I have not got all day to entertain you this way, you are moving too slowly!!!"

<in this way the teacher will finally decide if the student is good enough or not, and at the same time the student gets stronger because of the exercise>

 

[arnisador]

I know some schools like that...if you aren't training to take on a MMAer, you're not hardcore encough for them.

I say, it's good that there are schools of both types out there. Everyone can get what they want.

 

[IcemanSK]

I've trained at schools that set the bar high, but still didn't tell people they weren't "fit" for their school. I once trained at a world-class gym next to world champions. The gym catered to these folks, & yet was still able to help 200 lbs 5 foot tall women & even guys like me.

I agree with Buzzy. Character issues are one thing. Fitness issues shouldn't keep someone from training at a certain gym. "I will try" is all I need to hear in order to train them. If they're not willing to do that, I can't help them.

 

[CoryKS]

Probably goes hand-in-hand with another behavior which has been documented elsewhere - the idea that a school with overweight teachers / students must not be very good. The instructor in this case may either believe this himself or he may be thinking that if he accepts overweight students he will chase away other potential students who will decide that his MA is not good.

 

[Kacey]

I have a student with disabilities (developmental delay and cerebral palsy) - the only student I know to have had his contract not renewed particular McDojang; after several years, he brought one of his friends, who has Down's Syndrome. They probably cost me students - but y'know what? They are great students (even when they drive me nuts). They work hard, they practice at home, they ask questions, and the first one has been in my class for over 6 years - he's still a 7th gup (high yellow belt), when most people get to 7th gup in 12-18 months - but he doesn't give up. I've learned a lot from him, as have my other students. He puts more effort into class than almost any other student I've had - and who am I to say he shouldn't be there?

If someone has character problems, then yes, I see that differently than I do anything else; the things that people learn in most MAs can be used to hurt other people, and I reserve the right to not teach students who I feel will use what I teach them to deliberately hurt other people.

 

[Xue Sheng]

That makes me think of the movies that we would watch as children, where the gong-fu man would not teach someone -- "You are too weak, I won't waste my time with you, you are too weak to learn this way."

"Oh, no, I am NOT too weak, you will teach me this."

"No, you are too weak to learn this Tiger-Crane, this is for strong people, go away."

"No, try me, you'll see, I am very strong."

"Okay, then, you run up that hill 5 times with that tire tied to you with the chain... Go!!!"

<the prospective student runs up and down the hill 5 times to show the teacher his stamina and perseverance>

"Okay, you can see that I am strong."

"Strong? We have just gotten started. Get those buckets and move all of that water from that one tub to the next, you will do it while duck walking .... go, I have not got all day to entertain you this way, you are moving too slowly!!!"

<in this way the teacher will finally decide if the student is good enough or not, and at the same time the student gets stronger because of the exercise>

Why do they ALWAYS pick on CMA :disgust: :uhyeah:

I just signed up two ladys from another school today and thought I would share this with all of you.

They came and ask would I train them, I look confused and said yes if you would like.......

Then the lady looked at the other one and said see there are schools out there that would train us....

Again I looked puzzled and said whay would you think schools would not train them...

The lady turns and start laughing and said there other school they was at simply told them they are not the quality of person they wanted after there three month contract and then she went on to stay if you are round, short and have little athletic ability they get kicked out....

I was simply amazed by this approach and told them everybody has a right to train but then again certain trainer have no right to teach a Martial Art if they have these types of views.

What is everybody else take on this?

Well although I do not like the other schools approach I agree with what Crane posted.

But with that said if I had a spots Sanshou school (and I don't) and someone showed up to train, regardless of physicality, as long as they had the ok of their MD I would train them. But if a retired man or woman in their 70s showed up and wanted to train Sanshou or MMA to go pro I would likely not train them. Unless of course it was those 2 guys I saw in China doing Long fist, then I would be 2 afraid to tell them no

 

[bowser666]

This particular topic is an irritant for me. I find elitism arrogant. It's their loss if they won't train someone based on Profiling. A real teacher would want to teach anyone , to watch them grow, get in shape , etc...... That is the whole point of teaching MA. TO spread the teachings.........................

 

[Andy Moynihan]

I just signed up two ladys from another school today and thought I would share this with all of you.

They came and ask would I train them, I look confused and said yes if you would like.......

Then the lady looked at the other one and said see there are schools out there that would train us....

Again I looked puzzled and said whay would you think schools would not train them...

The lady turns and start laughing and said there other school they was at simply told them they are not the quality of person they wanted after there three month contract and then she went on to stay if you are round, short and have little athletic ability they get kicked out....

I was simply amazed by this approach and told them everybody has a right to train but then again certain trainer have no right to teach a Martial Art if they have these types of views.

What is everybody else take on this?

The way I see it the 2 ladies are his loss your gain.

I do not own a school or teach students at this time.

If I did, I'd screen for a criminal/mental health record but that's all.

I wouldn't outright kick someone out for not losing weight but I might use the Basic Training trick of "you should ask yourself why you are here".

Does this person want to truly improve themselves or do they just want something to do to kill time X nights a week?

If they don't *want* to be there, I don't want their money. *shrug*.

 

[Flying Crane]

Do you not feel only training those fit people are wrong and is not what Martial Art is about in the first place or maybe my views are different. I mean I would not train a pedifile or a rappist but to not train a certain age or wieght class just feel wrong to me.

well, i will point out that just about every business has a policy, often posted right near the cash register: "We Reserve The Right To Refuse Service To Anyone."

Just because someone is teaching, doesn't mean they have to teach anyone and everyone who walks thru their door, regardless of the reasons. Turning someone away may be to their loss, but they will never know that. But it's their choice to make.

A friend of mine has asked if I will teach him some kenpo and/or kung fu. We may get started in the near future. I may extend an invitation to a small group of people who have expressed an interest, but I doubt my group would be larger than four. I don't have room for more than that anyway. It's a private endeavor, we would meet in my home, or in a local park. I'm not running a business, and I don't need fees to cover overhead. If I do start collecting fees, I am sure it will be minimal. I don't want to be in the business of running a martial arts school. But I don't mind sharing my knowledge with a select group.

So if someone else approached me for instruction, I would most likely decline, particularly if it was a random person who I don't already know and have some kind of relationship with. I'm being very selective at this stage in the game. Maybe some of these people might be good students, but I'm just not interested at this point, in growing a school. That's my choice.

I'm not a profiler, but I'm simply choosing my students. It's also good to recognize where your skills and strengths lie when it comes to dealing with people. Kacey has mentioned working with a couple of disabled students, including one with Down's Syndrome. I applaud that. It's tremendous. But I also know that I would not be successful with that kind of student. I believe that I don't have the skills to be able to work successfully with a student with those kinds of disabilities. I'm just being honest with myself, and with the prospective student, and I don't want to collect someone's money just to create a situation that is frustrating for all parties involved.

So, getting back to the topic: profiling is mean. People shouldn't do it. But, I stand by my position that an instructor has the right to teach, or not teach, whomever he/she chooses, for whatever reasons make sense to him.

Once upon a time, Asian teachers didn't teach non-Asians. It sucked, it was tough for non-Asians to get into the arts, but that's the way it was. You cannot force someone to give you knowledge, if they don't want to, whether or not their reasons are justified.

 

[Kacey]

Michael makes a good point - not all instructors can teach all students. However, I do see a significant difference between "I can't be a good teacher to students with 'x' needs/problems" and "I won't teach anyone who can't be a high-scoring competitor" or something similar.

 

[Flying Crane]

Michael makes a good point - not all instructors can teach all students. However, I do see a significant difference between "I can't be a good teacher to students with 'x' needs/problems" and "I won't teach anyone who can't be a high-scoring competitor" or something similar.

Yes, this is a good point. However, it may be that the school and the instructor are focused on high-level competition, and they have made a choice to only focus on that an nothing else. So they are selective about their students. To an outsider, it seems selfish or petty or profiling. But maybe they are just being honest in their goals, and it could be a disservice to bring in students who won't share these goals. Those students need to find a school that is willing and able to meet their needs. The right school for the right person. Not all kinds fit all kinds, that's all.

 

[terryl965]

well, i will point out that just about every business has a policy, often posted right near the cash register: "We Reserve The Right To Refuse Service To Anyone."

Just because someone is teaching, doesn't mean they have to teach anyone and everyone who walks thru their door, regardless of the reasons. Turning someone away may be to their loss, but they will never know that. But it's their choice to make.

A friend of mine has asked if I will teach him some kenpo and/or kung fu. We may get started in the near future. I may extend an invitation to a small group of people who have expressed an interest, but I doubt my group would be larger than four. I don't have room for more than that anyway. It's a private endeavor, we would meet in my home, or in a local park. I'm not running a business, and I don't need fees to cover overhead. If I do start collecting fees, I am sure it will be minimal. I don't want to be in the business of running a martial arts school. But I don't mind sharing my knowledge with a select group.

So if someone else approached me for instruction, I would most likely decline, particularly if it was a random person who I don't already know and have some kind of relationship with. I'm being very selective at this stage in the game. Maybe some of these people might be good students, but I'm just not interested at this point, in growing a school. That's my choice.

I'm not a profiler, but I'm simply choosing my students. It's also good to recognize where your skills and strengths lie when it comes to dealing with people. Kacey has mentioned working with a couple of disabled students, including one with Down's Syndrome. I applaud that. It's tremendous. But I also know that I would not be successful with that kind of student. I believe that I don't have the skills to be able to work successfully with a student with those kinds of disabilities. I'm just being honest with myself, and with the prospective student, and I don't want to collect someone's money just to create a situation that is frustrating for all parties involved.

So, getting back to the topic: profiling is mean. People shouldn't do it. But, I stand by my position that an instructor has the right to teach, or not teach, whomever he/she chooses, for whatever reasons make sense to him.

Once upon a time, Asian teachers didn't teach non-Asians. It sucked, it was tough for non-Asians to get into the arts, but that's the way it was. You cannot force someone to give you knowledge, if they don't want to, whether or not their reasons are justified.

Very great points Thanks

 

[donna]

Yes, this is a good point. However, it may be that the school and the instructor are focused on high-level competition, and they have made a choice to only focus on that an nothing else. So they are selective about their students. To an outsider, it seems selfish or petty or profiling. But maybe they are just being honest in their goals, and it could be a disservice to bring in students who won't share these goals. Those students need to find a school that is willing and able to meet their needs. The right school for the right person. Not all kinds fit all kinds, that's all.

Fair enough, but if that is the case, Why would they take the students money for the three month trial first?? Surely they knew from the start that these students were not the "Type" that they wanted to teach. Sounds a bit dodgy to me.