Train TMA but fight like kickboxer

[Gerry Seymour]

Same here. Not everything was taught in forms. The forms were a catalog of techniques, but the forms didn't have all of the techniques. There was a lot of that I personally taught that weren't in forms. My teachers did the same thing as well. Additional things were taught outside of the forms.

Edit: I'm assuming that the stuff that my teachers taught, but weren't in the forms, were the new things that the teachers added over the years and felt that students should know. Some of it came from other systems, and the teacher always made sure we knew what was Jow Ga and what wasn't.

Within NGA, there's a significant body of stuff that "is NGA" that isn't in any of the classical forms. It's taught in every NGA school, and apparently was part of the curriculum in Japan. The forms were meant to be specific training tools, rather than containers of the art.

 

[Steve]

This is where I my issue begins and ends. While I wish everyone would train it as a fighting system and put in the work to use it. I'm OK with people just being honest about their training.

Me too, pretty much. I have friends who are into all kinds of things, and as long as it isn't harmful, cruel, or demeaning to themselves or others, I'm pretty much all for it. Folks have all kinds of kinks and quirks. Bronies, furries, larpers, gamers, gay, straight, polyamorous, non-binary... whatever it is. If it works for you, is fun for you, and you aren't harming yourself or others, knock yourself out.

I have played role playing games since 1981, and it was SUPER NERDY for a long time. I was a nerd when being a nerd wasn't cool. So, I think I'm about as "live and let live" as I can be. And that's how I view most martial arts. If you want to train toad style kung fu, great. There are things I like about most styles

People can train for function and still have fun, still exercise, still do cool stuff, all without degrading the system and understanding of it. I feel the same way with sparring. Sparring doesn't have to be brutal. Light sparring is safe and can be functional and fun at the same time. The most important thing about sparring is that it's always a reality check. People will know right off the back their limits. This would go a long way in keeping expectations in check.

Heck yeah. But it can also be fun, good exercise, and cool... and be entirely impractical. And still be worth training for the fun, the exercise, maybe cultural preservation... and a host of other great reasons.

I don't like con artists. I don't like when folks are sold bunk. And given the stakes involved here, it's not harmless to convince someone they can learn to fight without fighting, and get to a point where they can even teach other people to fight without having ever been in a fight. Worst case, it's predatory and dangerous.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Reminds me of an old Mike Hammer book... opening line was something like (paraphrasing), "I woke up that morning lying face down in the gutter lying in a pool of my own vomit."

Regarding people... I'm less charitable with adults, but in particular for kids, it bothers me a lot. It can be devastating to a kid's self image for them to experience a crisis like this, where they believe they are skilled and find out that they are not.

I hope this is a complete thought... I'm splitting my attention, so if I need to fill in some blanks later, let me know.

Worst part was the bus drivers kept driving past me because I was such a mess and it took me quite a while to get home to Long Beach from L.A. It definitely changed my view of fighting reality. Honestly, it wasn’t the worst beating Ive had. I have had a few. Stabbed twice, batted, cue stick, shot at, broken bones, etc. I never did much competition except as a boy, but I’m well versed in the reality of street fighting, which is why I get so annoyed with people telling me about what works and what doesn’t. I’ve been to jail for this stuff several times before the age of 18 and saw someone die in a fight for the first time at the age of 5 on a walk with my grandfather. My story isn’t unique or special but it’s not that common either. I try to keep it realistic because my students will not likely have those kinds of experiences. Its a balancing act that has to be tailored to each individual. What works for one might not be good for another. I don’t tell those stories to the 68 year old that shows up to Tai chi on Sunday morning.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Not everything was taught in forms.

If you don't record information into your forms, where do you record it? You may record your information as drill 1, drill 2, .., drill 299, drill 300. For a teacher, does that teacher even remember what drill 278 is when he is 80 years old?

We all know what Shakespeare wrote. We don't know what Shakespeare didn't write.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Training in a traditional martial art is not about collecting techniques.

But if you don't have enough tools in your toolbox, you won't have when you need it.

For example, when your opponent switch sides, if you don't have roundhouse kick as one of your tools, you may miss this opportunity, the most logic attack for that opportunity.

This is why I don't understand when people say, "You fight like a kickboxer". You just do the right thing at the right time.

 

[Flying Crane]

But if you don't have enough tools in your toolbox, you won't have when you need it.

You do learn techniques as part of the training process. As I said, you practice techniques as a way of understanding the principles; the techniques are examples of the principles in use. So yes, learning techniques is part of the natural progression. But a coherent martial method is not just a collection of techniques. It is a thoughtful use of principles, and techniques that are highly functional when built upon those principles. Which is not just a mish-mash collection of every technique that you ever saw someone do and you decided you must have it.

For example, when your opponent switch sides, if you don't have roundhouse kick as one of your tools, you may miss this opportunity, the most logic attack for that opportunity.

I don’t know that I would assess that in the same way. But if it works for you, ok.

This is why I don't understand when people say, "You fight like a kickboxer". You just do the right thing at the right time.

I agree.

 

[JowGaWolf]

br

If you don't record information into your forms, where do you record it?

Through words and action.
Do parents have to record how to ride a bike in order to teach children?
There are a lot of sports that are taught from parent to child and there's no form recorded to teach those skill sets.

For a teacher, does that teacher even remember what drill 278 is when he is 80 years old?

I taught my son how to ride a bike. He learned before I turned 80. I'm teaching my son how to strike a heavy bag. He will learn it completely before I turn 80.

You teach before you forget and you take notes along the way about the things that you are most likely to forget.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Do parents have to record how to ride a bike in order to teach children?

It's 21th century. Everything can be digitalized.

Today you can google "how to ride bike". Someone has spent time to record that information on the internet.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

you take notes along the way about the things that you are most likely to forget.

The problem is if you lose your notes, you'll lose that information forever. If you record a technique into a form and past it to other people, you'll have more people who can help you to preserve that information.

For example, the 13 Taibo is 13 postures that one can use to train MA skill. Those 13 postures has no particular order. It's very difficult for anybody to remember it as posture 1, posture 2, ... posture 13. I created a form and link it in a sequence. It's so easy to learn, and so easy to teach.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you don't record information into your forms, where do you record it? You may record your information as drill 1, drill 2, .., drill 299, drill 300. For a teacher, does that teacher even remember what drill 278 is when he is 80 years old?

We all know what Shakespeare wrote. We don't know what Shakespeare didn't write.

We have plenty of examples of folks talking about meaning of forms getting lost. Just because a series of movements is in a form, that doesn't ensure the principles are passed along properly. The best hope of passing along an art is to leave behind folks who understand the art's principles.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But if you don't have enough tools in your toolbox, you won't have when you need it.

For example, when your opponent switch sides, if you don't have roundhouse kick as one of your tools, you may miss this opportunity, the most logic attack for that opportunity.

This is why I don't understand when people say, "You fight like a kickboxer". You just do the right thing at the right time.

There are plenty of other ways to attack someone in that transition, and plenty of other opportunities. Boxing is a great example of how well someone can learn to fight with a lot of missing tools.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's 21th century. Everything can be digitalized.

Today you can google "how to ride bike". Someone has spent time to record that information on the internet.

For some of us, there's just no need. Nobody will be studying my teaching methods after I'm gone.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The problem is if you lose your notes, you'll lose that information forever.

This is why it's important to teach so that the information survives.

It's 21th century. Everything can be digitalized.

I agree. Notes are notes be it on paper or camera.

The problem is if you lose your notes, you'll lose that information forever.

You can lose digital information forever as well.

If you record a technique into a form and past it to other people, you'll have more people who can help you to preserve that information.

I agree with this provided that the teacher has some validity. It's one of the reason I don't mind recording my training. I don't like the "perfection" of kung fu where students think they can't show their skill set unless they are "perfect". I like to see people go through the learning process and not just the final result.

The benefit of video is that it captures movement. Seeing something performed is better than screen shots or words trying to described what should be done. I think of it like cooking. It's easier for me to follow a recipe when I can see it done then read it. When I see people cook, I can also see the things that aren't in the recipe.

 

[JowGaWolf]

For some of us, there's just no need. Nobody will be studying my teaching methods after I'm gone.

I think you would be surprised.

 

[Steve]

Worst part was the bus drivers kept driving past me because I was such a mess and it took me quite a while to get home to Long Beach from L.A. It definitely changed my view of fighting reality. Honestly, it wasn’t the worst beating Ive had. I have had a few. Stabbed twice, batted, cue stick, shot at, broken bones, etc. I never did much competition except as a boy, but I’m well versed in the reality of street fighting, which is why I get so annoyed with people telling me about what works and what doesn’t. I’ve been to jail for this stuff several times before the age of 18 and saw someone die in a fight for the first time at the age of 5 on a walk with my grandfather. My story isn’t unique or special but it’s not that common either. I try to keep it realistic because my students will not likely have those kinds of experiences. Its a balancing act that has to be tailored to each individual. What works for one might not be good for another. I don’t tell those stories to the 68 year old that shows up to Tai chi on Sunday morning.

Sounds like you’ve got some real life experience with violence. I don’t have any experience that could compare with that though I have to say you brought back some memories. I’ve never been beaten quite so bad, but I’ve been on the wrong side of plenty of fights. When you talk about the bus driver, I know exactly how that feels. I was much younger but something similar happened. I was at the school bus stop, 8 years old, and a 12 year old was on top of me beating the snot out of me. School bus came, kids all got on the bus and he took off leaving me there

We have plenty of examples of folks talking about meaning of forms getting lost. Just because a series of movements is in a form, that doesn't ensure the principles are passed along properly. The best hope of passing along an art is to leave behind folks who understand the art's principles.

Philosophically, at least.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think you would be surprised.

I have had very few students, and none of my direct students made it anywhere near far enough to continue working with the art when I'm gone - too many stops and starts in a part-time program. I've helped train a few instructors in the past, but with the school they taught at closed, it's likely none will continue teaching. It's unlikely I'll leave a legacy in my art.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Philosophically, at least.

I was speaking of physical principles, so they'd need to understand them more than philosophically if they are to pass along the art well.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The best hope of passing along an art is to leave behind folks who understand the art's principles.

You still think about "teacher-students" model. I'm thinking about the "google engine" model that everybody can learn MA online without teacher.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I have had very few students, and none of my direct students made it anywhere near far enough to continue working with the art when I'm gone - too many stops and starts in a part-time program. I've helped train a few instructors in the past, but with the school they taught at closed, it's likely none will continue teaching. It's unlikely I'll leave a legacy in my art.

You never know what bits and pieces are kept.

I just created a post how people at the gym are following my instructions when I teach my son. I'm not teaching them but they watch when I teach my son and then they follow what I teach him.

Sometimes as a teacher you think what you teach, may not have an impact but it does. It just not always easy to see where that impact is and if that lesson will be taught again or forgotten forever.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You still think about "teacher-students" model. I'm thinking about the "google engine" model that everybody can learn MA online without teacher.

Didn't method of leaving your knowledge behind for others. I like that as well because it fits more like a history book.