Is BJJ a TMA?

[Flying Crane]

Nah, I know a couple of them, they are miserable. Drug use is rampant, abuses are common. A friend of mine got into stripping for private parties when he was 18, I did it a couple times but it wasn’t for me. I’ve known a few sex workers, my dad was a pimp among other things so I am somewhat familiar with hookers, ahem! (sex workers).

 

[Flying Crane]

Oh I’m sure the reality of it is not all that great. It’s just a funny reflection on one’s life.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Oh I’m sure the reality of it is not all that great. It’s just a funny reflection on one’s life.

It actually turned me off to strip clubs and porn in general.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Nothing is more gross than a naked chick with dirty feet.

 

[wab25]

Sorry to derail the thread back to the original topic....

Whether an art is a TMA or not depends on the definition of TMA. The more I think about it, the definition of TMA greatly depends on whether we want to participate in a TMA. Some people like the idea of learning and practicing a TMA... they see that as a good thing. They will create a definition of TMA that includes what they like to study. Other people do not want to practice a TMA, they create and use a definition of TMA that excludes what they do. Since some folks take that label as a positive and others take it as a negative.... we won't really agree on the definition... someone's art will end up on the "wrong" side and so we will need a new definition....

When people ask about Danzan Ryu, I tell them it is a traditional japanese jujitsu. I do this to distinguish it from BJJ. When people hear jujitsu, the assume bjj. I also want to distinguish what we do from judo, as we are not that either. While what I say is not actually "correct" it has the intended effect and communicates what I need to communicate in an efficient manner. Much easier than explaining that it comes directly from 3 different japanese jujitsu systems, with the Hawaiian art of Lua hidden inside, along with a bunch of chinese kung fu and then a smattering of western wrestling and boxing. Its just easier to say it is a traditional japanese jujitsu system....

 

[Same Trick]

Totally harmless to humans.

Sure I could have crushed it with my tiger claw, but immediate first impression it was as a scary monster.
Yesterday night there was another giant bug in my house, this time I immediately chased it out, I’m ready for that mantis anytime, anywhere ……. I guess

 

[drop bear]

I teach CMA mixed with some basic western boxing and dirty boxing. I don’t have belts or uniforms or bowing or breaking or rank of any kind. Honest question, am I a TMA? I add anything useful I see because I am not beholden to anyone or any organization.

Probably not.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I don’t have belts or uniforms or bowing or breaking or rank of any kind. Honest question, am I a TMA?

IMO, these things don't have much to do with the essence of TMA as I've earlier expressed, having been added, primarily by the Japanese starting in the late 1880's with judo's gi and belts. Although these things are a part of modern TMA, I think MA prior to that could still be called TMA. 1930's karate had none of these things, except some bowing which is a part of overall Oriental culture, yet I still clearly call it a TMA for the many reasons I detailed in several posts.

I teach CMA mixed with some basic western boxing and dirty boxing.

IMO, this is the main element in your question. From what I know, it seems that CMA and boxing employ much different principles that are not compatible. Have they turned your CMA into MMA, or have you just stuck in a few moves that you've found kind of fit? If you still teach forms and their applications, I'd call you a borderline TMA. If not, along with the other things you've mentioned, I'd say you've left TMA behind. I'd probably have to see what you do in your WingWooGar style to give a solid opinion.

 

[Haruhiko]

This is a branch-off of my post #3 in the Taipei Report thread (in the Chinese Internal Arts forum - reading it will put this post in perspective and keep me from repeating stuff) in which Windwalker brought up BJJ's place in the MA world.

As I describe in that post, CMA and karate developed gradually over centuries in response to the historical, cultural and philosophical environments in China and Okinawa, as well as Japan with input over time from numerous masters, sharing and passing on their knowledge. IMO, this fully addresses the definition of "traditional." BJJ, however, developed in a much different way.

In contrast to those other arts, BJJ developed in an environment mostly devoid of these traditional factors. Warfare, philosophy, politics, cultural need, etc. did not play much part. This is what I gather from the online info on its origins. The short history is judoka, Mitsuyo (or his student) taught the sport to Carlos Gracie. His brothers, including Helio, adapted that art from one that emphasized throwing the opponent to the ground to one that emphasized what to do once he was on the ground and stressed submissions. Thus, BJJ was born. Compared to other empty hand fighting methods, BJJ was born almost overnight by one family.

This birth happened to occur in Brazil, but couldn't it have been any country that Mitsuyo or someone like him taught someone like the Gracies? The place and its traditions had little influence.

By the common criteria of "traditional" BJJ does not come close to the experiences of Oriental TMA. IMO, it is a different kind of animal. There is a BJJ tradition within its own ranks, but when compared in light of the other arts' history, it falls short of being a TMA. I am talking only of semantics and classification here - no judgement or opinion is being given as to its effectiveness, usefulness or worth. Those early Gracies were innovative and developed a unique specialized style.

If we’re being honest, BJJ isn’t just modern - it’s a deliberate simplification of its Judo roots. The Gracies removed formal kata, de-emphasised throwing, and focused almost exclusively on ground control and submissions. From a traditional lens, this is absolutely a watering down. But from a pragmatic standpoint, it was also a refinement - built for "vale tudo", not for spiritual cultivation.

That’s why calling BJJ a TMA feels disingenuous. But here’s the twist: Judo was a simplification of koryu jujutsu too. So if we’re holding BJJ to that standard, Judo also doesn’t make the cut.

 

[isshinryuronin]

That’s why calling BJJ a TMA feels disingenuous. But here’s the twist: Judo was a simplification of koryu jujutsu too. So if we’re holding BJJ to that standard, Judo also doesn’t make the cut.

If being adapted from a prior art is the sole criterium, yeah. But then NO art could be called TMA as most all are adaptations. Using just this a basis is disingenuous. I think a better way to judge is to look at the many cultural, historical, philosophical, and evolutionary factors that the art has be subjected to. If it has, say, 4 or 5 out of 6, it would be reasonable to call it a Traditional Martial Art.

Some have mentioned that adding moves from another art during its evolution is a sign of BJJ (or other) being a TMA but that's just one data point. Japanese uses an outlined circle as a period, rather than a solid dot. That bit of Japanese does NOT change the essence of the English in my sentence. If I write a sentence in English but use such a circle for my period, that doesn't mean English is a blend of Japanese and Indo-European. My point here is just looking at one data point when making comparisons or judging most anything is faulty - the big picture must be taken into account. So, I agree with Haruhiko's main sentiment but discount the "twist."

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

IMO, these things don't have much to do with the essence of TMA as I've earlier expressed, having been added, primarily by the Japanese starting in the late 1880's with judo's gi and belts. Although these things are a part of modern TMA, I think MA prior to that could still be called TMA. 1930's karate had none of these things, except some bowing which is a part of overall Oriental culture, yet I still clearly call it a TMA for the many reasons I detailed in several posts.

IMO, this is the main element in your question. From what I know, it seems that CMA and boxing employ much different principles that are not compatible. Have they turned your CMA into MMA, or have you just stuck in a few moves that you've found kind of fit? If you still teach forms and their applications, I'd call you a borderline TMA. If not, along with the other things you've mentioned, I'd say you've left TMA behind. I'd probably have to see what you do in your WingWooGar style to give a solid opinion.

Well to be clear, I did not add these things, my Sigung James Wing Woo was a golden gloves boxer in the navy added these to the system long ago. I still teach forms and applications. Jab, hook, etc. fit just fine with a southern CMA focused on striking. There is no issue or principle violation there. Wing Woo Gar is, and always has been an amalgamation of several CMA including Hung Gar, Choy Li Fut, Mok Gar, Tam Tui, Yang Tai Chi Chuan, and western boxing that Sifu Woo had studied and practiced. Some CMA are short styles, take Ying Jow Pai ( eagle claw ) for instance, if one already has strong CMA foundation principles, then the totality of the eagle claw style could be absorbed within a 2-3 year period. Practicing Tai Chi Chuan and Hung Gar simultaneously would seem to be violations of principles to some folks outside of CMA. In fact, they inform one another and both are important to have a broader understanding of various CMA principles and practices. I had a boxing and JJJ background as a kid before starting CMA, I find those skills are complimentary rather than a hinderance. I train Chin na and a White Crane style with Dr Yang Jwing Ming in addition to teaching and training Wing Woo Gar. I do not teach any of what I learn with Dr Yang in my Wing Woo Gar but I would certainly use it on my own. I don’t teach what little JJ I have learned in Wing Woo Gar but I think it is very useful to have. I encourage my students to do cross training in other arts as my Sifu did with me. I don’t see any issue with integrations of arts. I hesitate to call myself TMA or MMA but I guess I’m a little of both personally, though my ground game is surely lacking.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Sure I could have crushed it with my tiger claw, but immediate first impression it was as a scary monster.
Yesterday night there was another giant bug in my house, this time I immediately chased it out, I’m ready for that mantis anytime, anywhere ……. I guess

They are considered good luck, crushing it would be a bad look. There many mantids that resemble an orchid flower, some are stunningly beautiful, many, including the Chinese giant, can be ordered by mail and raised in a terrarium.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Sorry to derail the thread back to the original topic....

Whether an art is a TMA or not depends on the definition of TMA. The more I think about it, the definition of TMA greatly depends on whether we want to participate in a TMA. Some people like the idea of learning and practicing a TMA... they see that as a good thing. They will create a definition of TMA that includes what they like to study. Other people do not want to practice a TMA, they create and use a definition of TMA that excludes what they do. Since some folks take that label as a positive and others take it as a negative.... we won't really agree on the definition... someone's art will end up on the "wrong" side and so we will need a new definition....

When people ask about Danzan Ryu, I tell them it is a traditional japanese jujitsu. I do this to distinguish it from BJJ. When people hear jujitsu, the assume bjj. I also want to distinguish what we do from judo, as we are not that either. While what I say is not actually "correct" it has the intended effect and communicates what I need to communicate in an efficient manner. Much easier than explaining that it comes directly from 3 different japanese jujitsu systems, with the Hawaiian art of Lua hidden inside, along with a bunch of chinese kung fu and then a smattering of western wrestling and boxing. Its just easier to say it is a traditional japanese jujitsu system....

Sorry I can’t help myself with the thread drift. I will do better.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I hesitate to call myself TMA or MMA but I guess I’m a little of both personally, though my ground game is surely lacking.

It sounds like what you do is TMA but mixed with some MMA.

A lot has been said about how to define TMA, but what about MMA? A basic one may be:

A combination of not just fighting styles, but diverse unique fighting systems. Boxing, Karate, Judo, Wrestling, Savate, Whatever, even BJJ. Each of these has their own set of foundational principles, strategies, techniques, etc. Each is a separate language. When designed to work together, you've got MMA.

But if you don't teach this in a sport context, is it still MMA? Afterall, what we call MMA evolved in a sport environment, taking into account all the things sport entails. If taken out of this environment, shouldn't certain elements that exist in response to sport also be taken out. An MA had to modify itself when getting into sport. Coming out of sport would need a reverse modification, right? (This is just a thought that jumped into my head and is really a whole other topic)

In your case, WWG, once you get a strong ground game integrated into your system, I think you'll have a valid reason to label yourself as MMA if you wish, but still doing forms may be incongruous with the sport mindset of MMA. Maybe just call it "blank Combat Arts" and avoid TMA and MMA monikers all together.

 

[Flying Crane]

The term TMA itself implies that there is a Tradition of practicing and teaching that method. For how many years or decades or generations it needs to be practiced and taught in order to be “long enough” to qualify as a Tradition is open to debate. I don’t think it needs to include deliberate cultural trappings in the practice, but they can be part of it. Likewise I don’t think they require the inclusion of kata/forms, but they also can be part of it.

Seriously, I think they are all simply martial arts. Some have a heavy sports focus, others do not. Some have been around long enough to survive the test of time, others are new and limited to one single teacher who recently created it, and has yet to prove its worth. They just are. Humans like to categorize and draw boundaries. Maybe that is a waste of time and energy.

Really, I think a lot of unnecessary energy is wasted in debating what is the difference.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What is the different between TMA and MMA?

A MMA girl challenges a Kung Fu girl. During the fighting day, the MMA girl brings her boxing gloves. The Kung Fu girl brings her Guan Dao.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

Even the ears? My wife thinks that’s pretty gross.

yyyy... hang on I hadn't noticed the ears. Like I say, I'm not bisexual I just can't tell the difference

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

It sounds like what you do is TMA but mixed with some MMA.

A lot has been said about how to define TMA, but what about MMA? A basic one may be:

A combination of not just fighting styles, but diverse unique fighting systems. Boxing, Karate, Judo, Wrestling, Savate, Whatever, even BJJ. Each of these has their own set of foundational principles, strategies, techniques, etc. Each is a separate language. When designed to work together, you've got MMA.

But if you don't teach this in a sport context, is it still MMA? Afterall, what we call MMA evolved in a sport environment, taking into account all the things sport entails. If taken out of this environment, shouldn't certain elements that exist in response to sport also be taken out. An MA had to modify itself when getting into sport. Coming out of sport would need a reverse modification, right? (This is just a thought that jumped into my head and is really a whole other topic)

In your case, WWG, once you get a strong ground game integrated into your system, I think you'll have a valid reason to label yourself as MMA if you wish, but still doing forms may be incongruous with the sport mindset of MMA. Maybe just call it "blank Combat Arts" and avoid TMA and MMA monikers all together.

You are correct, I don’t teach a sport oriented art, I don’t do tournaments and the like, but I don’t discourage it either. It’s a neither here nor there thing for me. I like to hear that WWG students have acquitted themselves well in a sport competition, but I could not care less if they choose not to involve themselves in those activities. I tell the students to make it their own, they earn their abilities through the hard work they put in, it’s up to them what they choose to do with it. If I was able to improve my ground game, that would be an asset to my personal arsenal, but I would not add it to the WWG system. I hesitate to label myself, I’d rather people make up their own mind about what they think it is or isn’t. Most of the people in WWG came from other martial arts first, so there is a real diversity of experiences amongst our members. I appreciate your answers and feedback, thank you.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

yyyy... hang on I hadn't noticed the ears. Like I say, I'm not bisexual I just can't tell the difference

Nasty ears come in all flavors, same as dirty feet. I don’t judge anyone’s kinks, just speaking from my own tastes. Those ears just remind me of a gigantic Condyloma. Icky poo!

 

[Prince_Alarming]

Nasty ears come in all flavors, same as dirty feet. I don’t judge anyone’s kinks, just speaking from my own tastes. Those ears just remind me of a gigantic Condyloma. Icky poo!A

A couple of issues, but nothing I can't let slide. Especially with plenty of lube.