Train TMA but fight like kickboxer

[Kung Fu Wang]

What should a non-kickboxing fight suppose to look like?

- no roundhouse kick?
- no hook punch?
- no uppercut?
- no ... ?

Can anybody put up a fighting clip that doesn't look like a kickboxing fight?

Does all Sanda fight look like kickboxing fight?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This is the issue many people have with traditional martial arts that practice or teach stylised techniques. Of course fighting is going to look like fighting, so the practicing of stylised techniques invariably amounts to little.

Here is a good example that I prefer to say that I agree with you instead of to say that I disagree with somebody else.

IMO, the kickboxing is a natural way of fighting.

We all know that left hook, right hook combo is effective. Whether it exists in your MA system or not, as long as you spar long enough, you will start to use it.

Here is the roundhouse kick that I'm talking about. When you have right leg forward and your opponent has left leg forward, your left leg roundhouse kick just kick out without thinking (even if you may have never trained the roundhouse kick). The open is there. The roundhouse kick is the most logic attack right at that moment.

 

[Flying Crane]

This is the issue many people have with traditional martial arts that practice or teach stylised techniques. Of course fighting is going to look like fighting, so the practicing of stylised techniques invariably amounts to little.

Not true.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you are engaging the principles, then yes, you are using your system, regardless of what it looks like.

Agree with you on this.

I like to

- move around in circle (toward my opponent's blind side). I don't like to hop up and down.
- knock my opponent's punch down. I don't like to dodge a punch.
- use long guard. I don't like to use short boxing guard.
- ...

I don't know what's non-kickboxing fight suppose to look like. But I just move the way that I feel right.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

A carpenter who uses only traditional hand tools still builds actual stuff. A traditional martial artist who has never been in a fight is not doing the same thing his predecessors did. This is where the LARP descriptor is used. Though I personally think that’s insulting to LARPers because they are, in general, self aware and having fun.

Ok, well they both were in plenty of fights. If that’s the yardstick then I meet the standard as well. I’m not understanding your point here.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

A carpenter who uses only traditional hand tools still builds actual stuff. A traditional martial artist who has never been in a fight is not doing the same thing his predecessors did. This is where the LARP descriptor is used. Though I personally think that’s insulting to LARPers because they are, in general, self aware and having fun.

So would my students need to get into fights to make legitimate what they learned? I’m sure I’m missing something here.

 

[Steve]

Ok, well they both were in plenty of fights. If that’s the yardstick then I meet the standard as well. I’m not understanding your point here.

We have a few categories of folks here, but I think the meaningful distinction isn’t MMA vs TMA. It’s people who fight and people who don’t fight. Or maybe people who have fought and people who haven’t. Does that help?

 

[Steve]

So would my students need to get into fights to make legitimate what they learned? I’m sure I’m missing something here.

I think your students should understand that if they’ve never been in a fight, they really ought not to teach it because they may stink at it and not even know it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

people who have fought and people who haven’t.

One guy who wrestled with me for a long time had developed an "outer hook" throwing skill that nobody ever taught him before.

If you throw a right hook punch at your opponent's head, most of the time, your opponent may dodge under your punch. You can then either

- change your right hook into a right back fist and hit on top of his head, or
- use a left uppercut to hit his face.

Even if your MA system may not have back fist, or uppercut, you may develop both skills in sparring. The reason is simple. Those are the most logic follow up after your hook punch.

In other words, by using your logic and common sense, you will develop some useful tools in sparring/wrestling even if those tools may not be popular used in your MA system.

I strongly believe our ancient MA founders developed their skill through sparring/wrestling before they created their MA systems.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

We have a few categories of folks here, but I think the meaningful distinction isn’t MMA vs TMA. It’s people who fight and people who don’t fight. Or maybe people who have fought and people who haven’t. Does that help?

I think I know what you mean now. Thank you, yes that helps. I believe we agree on this. I don’t encourage nor discourage what people want to do with it. If they train, it’s theirs to do with what they choose. I do make sure that they understand all the ramifications of the choices they may make in regards to what I teach them.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I think your students should understand that if they’ve never been in a fight, they really ought not to teach it because they may stink at it and not even know it.

None of them should be teaching. That’s nowhere near for the most of them. My students backgrounds vary quite a bit. Some will never fight, some can’t wait to get in a ring, some are quiet but more likely to do it for real. Hard to say what is to come. I grew up in a lot of violence so it’s hard for me to compare myself to others. Most people get a choice, but I didn’t.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I think your students should understand that if they’ve never been in a fight, they really ought not to teach it because they may stink at it and not even know it.

True to your point, the common reaction from people who haven’t fought when they put gloves on and a mouthguard in is to fall apart. Even if they trained for over a year, their breath goes up to the top of their chest and they forget half of what they know. It takes time and patience to get some folks past that. Obviously, this isn’t how folks with some fight experience react.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is where I see many kung fu practitioners get things wrong. There is a mindset where one's skill is tied to how many forms they know. Similar to how some people tie skill level to black belts. A person who could fight using only the techniques in the beginner form would still be seen as a beginner, simply because he only knows the beginner form.

That solid ability is contained in the early content is likely true of any coherent system, too. Take the few things a new BJJ students learns, focus on those (and only those and minor variations) for a couple of years, and you'll be better than most folks on the ground. Adding more options does improve what situations you can handle and makes you harder to predict. But the basics are what came first, and will get you past most folks' ability.

The same is true in NGA, boxing, Karate, and everything else I've seen enough of to have a considered opinion.

I think - as you suggest here - the problem arises when we decide someone at a given point in the curriculum is of a given skill level.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And you begin to understand how that small core of techniques can be applied creatively, in nearly infinite situations. They are effective solutions to nearly any problem you might encounter.

One of the systems I dabbled in (several months of private lessons) was a fusion of SCJJ and FMA. I only ever saw 3-5 JJ techniques in that time (most of the focus was FMA), but they kept popping up in different situations.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

IMO, form training and fighting should not be too far apart.

If you have never jumped up in your form training, there is no way that suddenly you can use flying side kick in fighting.

That statement assumes there's no other training besides the forms and sparring/fighting. There's a bunch of stuff in my primary art that doesn't show up in any forms (not even the ones I've added). It gets trained separately.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That statement assumes there's no other training besides the forms and sparring/fighting. There's a bunch of stuff in my primary art that doesn't show up in any forms (not even the ones I've added). It gets trained separately.

Same here. Not everything was taught in forms. The forms were a catalog of techniques, but the forms didn't have all of the techniques. There was a lot of that I personally taught that weren't in forms. My teachers did the same thing as well. Additional things were taught outside of the forms.

Edit: I'm assuming that the stuff that my teachers taught, but weren't in the forms, were the new things that the teachers added over the years and felt that students should know. Some of it came from other systems, and the teacher always made sure we knew what was Jow Ga and what wasn't.

 

[Steve]

I think I know what you mean now. Thank you, yes that helps. I believe we agree on this. I don’t encourage nor discourage what people want to do with it. If they train, it’s theirs to do with what they choose. I do make sure that they understand all the ramifications of the choices they may make in regards to what I teach them.

I totally agree. Why people train and what they're looking for is totally up to them. Where I become skeptical is when their goals and their expectations are out of sync with their training. And in particular when they believe they know how to do things that they probably don't, and start teaching other people.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I totally agree. Why people train and what they're looking for is totally up to them. Where I become skeptical is when their goals and their expectations are out of sync with their training. And in particular when they believe they know how to do things that they probably don't, and start teaching other people.

Well I remember waking up with my face stuck to the pavement with my own dried blood and wondering how come I was looking at a tire. That was when I realized maybe I didn’t know how to fight as well as I thought. I was 17 at the time. There are hard lessons to learn for people who delude themselves. My hope is that I keep it completely true and honest with what I teach and expectations of what people can and cannot do.

 

[Steve]

Well I remember waking up with my face stuck to the pavement with my own dried blood and wondering how come I was looking at a tire. That was when I realized maybe I didn’t know how to fight as well as I thought. I was 17 at the time. There are hard lessons to learn for people who delude themselves. My hope is that I keep it completely true and honest with what I teach and expectations of what people can and cannot do.

Reminds me of an old Mike Hammer book... opening line was something like (paraphrasing), "I woke up that morning lying face down in the gutter lying in a pool of my own vomit."

Regarding people... I'm less charitable with adults, but in particular for kids, it bothers me a lot. It can be devastating to a kid's self image for them to experience a crisis like this, where they believe they are skilled and find out that they are not.

I hope this is a complete thought... I'm splitting my attention, so if I need to fill in some blanks later, let me know.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Where I become skeptical is when their goals and their expectations are out of sync with their training.

This is where I my issue begins and ends. While I wish everyone would train it as a fighting system and put in the work to use it. I'm OK with people just being honest about their training.

People can train for function and still have fun, still exercise, still do cool stuff, all without degrading the system and understanding of it. I feel the same way with sparring. Sparring doesn't have to be brutal. Light sparring is safe and can be functional and fun at the same time. The most important thing about sparring is that it's always a reality check. People will know right off the back their limits. This would go a long way in keeping expectations in check.