Traditional MA's flowery impractical techniques

DaveB

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Inspired by Bullsherdog.

We hear a lot about TMA being full.of impractical, flowery, unrealistic and straight BS techniques and methods.

For this thread I'd like to try to list them and the problems with them and yes, if anyone can actually use said bs techniques the defence of them would also be good.
 

hoshin1600

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Unfortunately this is subjective. No one will ever admit their own style has flowery BS fluff in it. But they can point out in a heartbeat all the stuff in every other style.
 

oftheherd1

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Inspired by Bullsherdog.

We hear a lot about TMA being full.of impractical, flowery, unrealistic and straight BS techniques and methods.

For this thread I'd like to try to list them and the problems with them and yes, if anyone can actually use said bs techniques the defence of them would also be good.

My belief is that many, especially in the various forms are "lost" techniques. When incorporated, the teachers knew them and passed them on to students at what the teachers considered the appropriate time. Somehow the meanings were lost, and the then current teachers, not wanting to defend moves they didn't understand, called them "art."
 

drop bear

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I wandered across this looking for something else. May as well bang it in here.

And it is straight up BS in a whole heap of ways. But mostly it is because of the validation method.


Correct feedback is a major contributor to a technique that works and one that doesn't.
 

Headhunter

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I wandered across this looking for something else. May as well bang it in here.

And it is straight up BS in a whole heap of ways. But mostly it is because of the validation method.


Correct feedback is a major contributor to a technique that works and one that doesn't.
The actual set up is fine but what shes doing is bs. She didnt throw a single strike and she put herself against the wall a number of times
 

Hanzou

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This never gets old:


Waaay too much work to (incorrectly) counter a guard.
 
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dvcochran

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Inspired by Bullsherdog.

We hear a lot about TMA being full.of impractical, flowery, unrealistic and straight BS techniques and methods.

For this thread I'd like to try to list them and the problems with them and yes, if anyone can actually use said bs techniques the defence of them would also be good.
I have always knew some one step techniques would not work for me and I would never try them as SD.
 

pdg

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I have always knew some one step techniques would not work for me and I would never try them as SD.

You have predetermined one-steps?

As far as I know, our one-steps are 'open' - you know who is the attacker and sometimes whether they're going to use hand or foot, but that's it...


As to the subject of the op, I can think of quite a few techniques (both offensive and defensive) that just wouldn't sensibly work as described/taught unless a very specific set of unusual circumstances are met, but that are actually quite practical if used differently.
 

JR 137

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You have predetermined one-steps?

As far as I know, our one-steps are 'open' - you know who is the attacker and sometimes whether they're going to use hand or foot, but that's it...


As to the subject of the op, I can think of quite a few techniques (both offensive and defensive) that just wouldn't sensibly work as described/taught unless a very specific set of unusual circumstances are met, but that are actually quite practical if used differently.
If you look at pre-arranged/pre-determined one steps as drills and principles rather than this is exactly how you defend yourself, they make significantly more sense and are significantly more useful. They (should) teach proper distance, timing, footwork, where to block, which block to use, target selection, and which techniques will be most effective at those targets.

Teaching students to counter a straight punch thats held out while the attacker has his way with him is fine for beginners. Once theyre comfortable with that, its time to move on to increased resistance and unknown types of attacks.

Too many people see one steps and think the entire system sucks because thats not how fights go. Too many teachers teach them without either understanding what they truly are or dont explain that theyre just drills because they assume the students are aware of it.

We do a lot of prearranged stuff in our organization. My teacher does a good job of conveying their true purpose, although he could say it a little more often to the newer students.
 

JR 137

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I wandered across this looking for something else. May as well bang it in here.

And it is straight up BS in a whole heap of ways. But mostly it is because of the validation method.


Correct feedback is a major contributor to a technique that works and one that doesn't.
Thanks for sharing that one. It definitely made my day. I wonder if the woman being tested thinks she can actually fend off 5 attackers at the same time.

Maybe she should watch the video and realize that they took turns rather than ganging up on her. And they didnt try to hold on when she countered. And no one hit hard enough to make her hit the deck and have the barrage of kicks from the circle that wouldve been there if she pissed 5 people off enough to actually get jumped.

Nah, shes a badass that can fend of 5 people.

At least shes trying. Thats better than sitting on the couch and watching tv or watching YouTube videos and trying to create her own Isiah90 system where shes getting shot with nerf guns and being hit with imaginary melee weapons.

Edit: then again, shes being attacked by an imaginary mob, so pick your poison here. At least shes getting a workout and experiencing the adrenaline dump.
 

Martial D

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Inspired by Bullsherdog.

We hear a lot about TMA being full.of impractical, flowery, unrealistic and straight BS techniques and methods.

For this thread I'd like to try to list them and the problems with them and yes, if anyone can actually use said bs techniques the defence of them would also be good.


Edit: I do realize they don't use these sorts of moves in sanda or tkd tourneys, but these are the sorts of flowery movements I believe OP was alluding to.
 
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JR 137

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Theres no flowery nor ineffective techniques in traditional MA. You guys are just stupid for thinking otherwise.

Exhibit A:

That one NEVER gets old.
 

Hanzou

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Thanks for sharing that one. It definitely made my day. I wonder if the woman being tested thinks she can actually fend off 5 attackers at the same time.

Maybe she should watch the video and realize that they took turns rather than ganging up on her. And they didnt try to hold on when she countered. And no one hit hard enough to make her hit the deck and have the barrage of kicks from the circle that wouldve been there if she pissed 5 people off enough to actually get jumped.

Nah, shes a badass that can fend of 5 people.

At least shes trying. Thats better than sitting on the couch and watching tv or watching YouTube videos and trying to create her own Isiah90 system where shes getting shot with nerf guns and being hit with imaginary melee weapons.

Edit: then again, shes being attacked by an imaginary mob, so pick your poison here. At least shes getting a workout and experiencing the adrenaline dump.

She's also a black belt, which is scary in of itself.
 

skribs

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Inspired by Bullsherdog.

We hear a lot about TMA being full.of impractical, flowery, unrealistic and straight BS techniques and methods.

For this thread I'd like to try to list them and the problems with them and yes, if anyone can actually use said bs techniques the defence of them would also be good.

Part of it is how the technique is done. I teach at least 3 ways to do the spinning hook kick in Taekwondo:

  1. For beginners to get used to the motion, I just tell them "do a back kick and then spin all the way back". It looks terrible, it serves no practical purpose, but it's a training tool used to get people the gross motor skills to do the kick.
  2. For sparring, we teach a faster, whiplike motion designed to quickly tag the head for 4 points.
  3. For demonstration, we teach a slower kick which focuses on the flow of the spin and the extension of the leg, as the only purpose is to look good.
I think the same applies to a lot of techniques. You have lots of possible applications:
  • Basic training of gross motor skills
  • Isolated training of specific muscle groups
  • Point sparring or set-up moves designed to quickly tag an opponent
  • Contact sparring or self-defense moves designed to KO an opponent
  • Demonstration moves designed to look good in a choreographed fight or a technical demonstration
I was asking my demo team students what the practical application the 540 kick was. None of them could come up with the right answer. "Self defense?" No, it's too slow for that. "Sparring?" No, in sparring you need to be even faster, so definitely too slow. The reason, I told them "It looks cool!" It's not a practical skill and it was never meant to be. It's just a difficult technique to learn, and once you learn it, you can show off.
 

Mitlov

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Edit: I do realize they don't use these sorts of moves in sanda or tkd tourneys, but these are the sorts of flowery movements I believe OP was alluding to.

Those are neither "unrealistic" nor "BS." They are an athletic performance art, designed intentionally to be an athletic performance art, and everyone in them knows full well that they're an athletic performance art. Nothing in those performances was meant to be a practical way of fighting off a mugger, and every single performer in those videos knows that.
 

pdg

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If you look at pre-arranged/pre-determined one steps as drills and principles rather than this is exactly how you defend yourself, they make significantly more sense and are significantly more useful. They (should) teach proper distance, timing, footwork, where to block, which block to use, target selection, and which techniques will be most effective at those targets.

Teaching students to counter a straight punch thats held out while the attacker has his way with him is fine for beginners. Once theyre comfortable with that, its time to move on to increased resistance and unknown types of attacks.

Too many people see one steps and think the entire system sucks because thats not how fights go. Too many teachers teach them without either understanding what they truly are or dont explain that theyre just drills because they assume the students are aware of it.

We do a lot of prearranged stuff in our organization. My teacher does a good job of conveying their true purpose, although he could say it a little more often to the newer students.

I get that they're drills, that wasn't my point though.

We start with predetermined 3 step - 3x same attack and same defence, finish with set counter.

Then 2 step - 2 different attacks and defences, plus counter again.

Our 1 step isn't set though, because it's supposed to be that little bit closer to "real". So while you know there's an attack on the way, you don't know how, where or when.

3 and 2 are more about distance, timing and getting to know what might work where - 1 step is more reactionary and really highlights whether you've considered what might work where or whether you're just going to middle block everything and hope it catches ;)
 

skribs

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If you look at pre-arranged/pre-determined one steps as drills and principles rather than this is exactly how you defend yourself, they make significantly more sense and are significantly more useful. They (should) teach proper distance, timing, footwork, where to block, which block to use, target selection, and which techniques will be most effective at those targets.

Teaching students to counter a straight punch thats held out while the attacker has his way with him is fine for beginners. Once theyre comfortable with that, its time to move on to increased resistance and unknown types of attacks.

Too many people see one steps and think the entire system sucks because thats not how fights go. Too many teachers teach them without either understanding what they truly are or dont explain that theyre just drills because they assume the students are aware of it.

We do a lot of prearranged stuff in our organization. My teacher does a good job of conveying their true purpose, although he could say it a little more often to the newer students.

What are your thoughts on this approach for kids vs. adults?
 

marques

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They exist because they sell (club subscriptions, movies...); and they are BS until someone make them work. (Overeem karate kid kick comes to my mind.)
 

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